"A free thinker is Satan's slave"

[ABikerSailor]

What Christian has said you *have* to believe as they do?

And who told you we're more *moral*?

Quotes and links please.

I know you're lying, so go ahead and avoid/prevaricate now...

Many Christians will walk up to you and tell you you're going to hell if you don't believe in Yeshua.

Many Christians also believe they are more moral than anyone else.

Matter of fact, you've proven that in the Trayvon Martin threads Always A Babbling *****.

 

[koshergrl]

So you're lying.

Thanks.

 

[uscitizen]

In this column, I want to consider two distinct but closely related questions: (1) can a theist be a freethinker?; and (2) are all nontheists freethinkers? I shall argue that the answer to (1) is "yes" and the answer to (2) is "no." I shall then argue that nontheists should stop using the word "freethinker" as an umbrella term.

Is "Freethinker" Synonymous with Nontheist?

Very good article on the subject of freethinkers.

 

[Youwerecreated]

You know.........an open mind allows you to look for truth no matter where it is, or who said it.

Closed minds (like many in the Christian communities) are what allows you to be bigoted and allows you to think that you're somehow "better" than others.

Open minds (i.e. free thinkers) educate and teach, closed ones run away from anything contrary to their current beliefs.

I thought an "open mind" allowed a logical or reasonable explanation to present a point of view, an idea, a theory or even a fact. It seems many on this board want to condemn "Christians" because they are unwilling to take some "intellectuals" ramblings, seriously, when there is evidence that those ideas end in catastrophic results.

Who is more "open-minded": the person that continues to put failed methods in place (without even changing a thing), or those that use history to make society work?

Well, Christians keep telling us that we have to believe as they do, because somehow they're more "moral", but when I look at things like the Inquisition and Crusades from history, I don't really think they're more "moral" than anyone else.

And........if you used history to make society work, then you'd probably want to follow the model set up by God's Chosen People, i.e. the Jews. Christians like to use Leviticus to prove that being gay is a sin, but they also choose to ignore many of the rules (which make sense) because they aren't Jewish.

Listen don't confuse over zealous Christians as God's people.

Mat 7:13 Go in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in through it.
Mat 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and constricted is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!
Mat 7:24 Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock.
Mat 7:25 And the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house. And it did not fall, for it was founded on a rock.


The Jews ? are not they the ones who put to death the prophets of God ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

What Christian has said you *have* to believe as they do?

And who told you we're more *moral*?

Quotes and links please.

I know you're lying, so go ahead and avoid/prevaricate now...

Many Christians will walk up to you and tell you you're going to hell if you don't believe in Yeshua.

Many Christians also believe they are more moral than anyone else.

Matter of fact, you've proven that in the Trayvon Martin threads Always A Babbling *****.

If you do not believe and trust in God whether you call him Yeshua, Jesus, God,or YAHWEH your chances of eternal life are not good according to the scriptures.

When people do a thourough study on what Hell really is, it is not the kind of place that has been stereo typed because of a few verses being cherry picked by men.

How can anyone believe that a loving and just God would torment his unruly children. He put it into our hearts that torment is wrong and ordered us not to do it to our children. So why would he do it to his ?

The torment that is spoken of is separation from our God and father.

 

[uscitizen]

Chances at eternal life are slim to nonexistent at best regardless of what you believe.

There is absolutely no proof that eternal life exists.

And by the rules laid down in the bible to attain eternal life very very few will qualify anyway.
Perhaps the rapture did happen last year, but the world did not miss the 6 that qualified?
Who is to say for sure?

 

[koshergrl]

I can say for sure.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I can say for sure.

You mean, you can tell us with absolute certainty what YOU believe is going to happen.

But.........you still don't really know for sure, as you've never been there yet.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Well, Christians keep telling us that we have to believe as they do, because somehow they're more "moral", but when I look at things like the Inquisition and Crusades from history, I don't really think they're more "moral" than anyone else.

Most free from superstition are as ‘moral’ as Christians, if not more so.

If you do not believe and trust in God whether you call him Yeshua, Jesus, God,or YAHWEH your chances of eternal life are not good according to the scriptures.

And there we go: the authoritarianism of the Christian right, the ancient threat of ‘damnation’ for failure to conform.

I can say for sure.

Of course you can, motivated by your Christian arrogance and conservative authoritarianism, you’re quite comfortable dictating to others how they must live and what they must believe.

The Constitutional principle of separation of church and State was clearly put into place with individuals such as you in mind; Christian fundamentalism is the bane of individual liberty.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Chances at eternal life are slim to nonexistent at best regardless of what you believe.

There is absolutely no proof that eternal life exists.

And by the rules laid down in the bible to attain eternal life very very few will qualify anyway.
Perhaps the rapture did happen last year, but the world did not miss the 6 that qualified?
Who is to say for sure?

There is no evidence for many things man believes but that does not stop them from believing these things.

If one were to have faith in what's contained in the bible they have a basis to believe in the promises contained in the scriptures.

 

[Youwerecreated]

I can say for sure.

You mean, you can tell us with absolute certainty what YOU believe is going to happen.

But.........you still don't really know for sure, as you've never been there yet.

It's called faith.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Well, Christians keep telling us that we have to believe as they do, because somehow they're more "moral", but when I look at things like the Inquisition and Crusades from history, I don't really think they're more "moral" than anyone else.

Most free from superstition are as ‘moral’ as Christians, if not more so.

If you do not believe and trust in God whether you call him Yeshua, Jesus, God,or YAHWEH your chances of eternal life are not good according to the scriptures.

And there we go: the authoritarianism of the Christian right, the ancient threat of ‘damnation’ for failure to conform.

I can say for sure.

Of course you can, motivated by your Christian arrogance and conservative authoritarianism, you’re quite comfortable dictating to others how they must live and what they must believe.

The Constitutional principle of separation of church and State was clearly put into place with individuals such as you in mind; Christian fundamentalism is the bane of individual liberty.

Men that are moral without a relationship with God follow an unseen force called a conscience. Is it a product of evolution or did the creator instill these values in us ?

 

[Dragon]

It's called faith.

It's called dogma. Faith has nothing to do with intellectual beliefs.

 

[Dragon]

Men that are moral without a relationship with God follow an unseen force called a conscience. Is it a product of evolution or did the creator instill these values in us ?

Partly a product of evolution and partly one of acculturation. The evolution part comes in from the fact that we are a social species, not a solitary species; like all social species, we have instincts of cooperation and competition that serve to enhance collective survivability in an environment for which we are evolved. Because we now live in an environment radically different from the one for which we are evolved, increasingly our moral values are derived culturally and adapted to our new circumstances, while still ultimately springing from the impulse to cooperative survival that is written in our genes.

 

[Youwerecreated]

It's called faith.

It's called dogma. Faith has nothing to do with intellectual beliefs.

It takes faith to believe one day that the promise of eternal life will be reality.

 

[Dragon]

It takes faith to believe one day that the promise of eternal will be reality.

It takes faith to keep going every day and not simply give up and die, as we will eventually have to do. One does not have to have any particular intellectual belief to do that, but one does have to have faith -- a willingness to go on, and the maintenance of a positive attitude.

It does not require faith to believe in "the promise of eternal life." It requires dogmatism. They are not the same thing.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Men that are moral without a relationship with God follow an unseen force called a conscience. Is it a product of evolution or did the creator instill these values in us ?

Partly a product of evolution and partly one of acculturation. The evolution part comes in from the fact that we are a social species, not a solitary species; like all social species, we have instincts of cooperation and competition that serve to enhance collective survivability in an environment for which we are evolved. Because we now live in an environment radically different from the one for which we are evolved, increasingly our moral values are derived culturally and adapted to our new circumstances, while still ultimately springing from the impulse to cooperative survival that is written in our genes.

Why is it we know it's wrong to commit murder or to steal and lie ? Are you saying that it evolved into humanity.

Where did that little voice that speaks to our hearts come from teaching us right from wrong. Men still kill in war,why ? one can kill to defend himself why is that justified ? If all killing was wrong.

Because the conscience tells us what is right and what is wrong. The conscience is not a product of evolution,it is a product of design.

 

[Youwerecreated]

It takes faith to believe one day that the promise of eternal will be reality.

It takes faith to keep going every day and not simply give up and die, as we will eventually have to do. One does not have to have any particular intellectual belief to do that, but one does have to have faith -- a willingness to go on, and the maintenance of a positive attitude.

It does not require faith to believe in "the promise of eternal life." It requires dogmatism. They are not the same thing.

Disagree.

As explained.

 

[Intense]

OK, I guess I need to clarify.

If the concept of sin or wrongdoing is reasonably narrow, and the category of acceptable behavior sufficiently wide, then freedom doesn't have to be the freedom to sin. But in traditional Christian thought. it's the other way around; the range of acceptable thought, feeling, and behavior is extremely narrow while the category of sinful behavior includes almost everything. God lays down rules for us to follow governing every aspect of our lives, right down to the activity of our brains, and there is precious little wiggle-room. It is that narrowness that is anti-liberty.

Thought, Word, Action, without consideration of Purpose, Conscience, Cause and Effect, Consequence, can br Irresponsible. Try living with that.

 

[Dragon]

Why is it we know it's wrong to commit murder or to steal and lie ? Are you saying that it evolved into humanity.

Yes. These behaviors -- avoiding murder and theft and dishonesty -- are conducive to group survival. The evolution of these primate behaviors actually predates the human species, but we can think of it this way. Multiple groups try to survive in a hunting-gathering environment. Some groups tend to behave cooperatively. Others tend to behave in pure selfishness, killing each other, stealing from each other, and lacking the prerequisites for mutual support and trust. Who is more likely to survive as a group and pass on their genes to the next generation? Obviously the ones who can maintain at least a minimum standard of cooperation. We are all descended from people who did this, rather than from people who did not. As a result, we have the genes of those who did, rather than those who did not.

That's how evolution works.