9/11: What really happened on that day?

[phoenyx]

Sorry, not interested in proving that invisible unicorn theories aren't true.

Sure there is. The buildings were burning, they were quite possibly going to get burned to death if they didn't jump.

That is ridiculous

Why would people choose to jump out of a burning building at the exact time Bush was performing a controlled demo?

Now you're saying they all jumped at the exact moment the towers started to collapse -.-? If you can find evidence of that, by all means present it. To be honest, this is feeling a bit like Monty Python's argument clinic right now ...

How could they possibly have known when to jump if they weren't warned that Bush was ready to control demo the building?

You haven't even shown any evidence that they all jumped right before the collapses -.-

Now you are obfuscating....just like all truthers

It was viewed by millions that people started jumping minutes before the towers were controlled demoed. How could they have known the controlled demo would take place if they weren't tipped off?

You haven't yet established that they weren't simply jumping out because they were being burned alive inside -.-

 

[rightwinger]

That is ridiculous

Why would people choose to jump out of a burning building at the exact time Bush was performing a controlled demo?

Now you're saying they all jumped at the exact moment the towers started to collapse -.-? If you can find evidence of that, by all means present it. To be honest, this is feeling a bit like Monty Python's argument clinic right now ...
L

How could they possibly have known when to jump if they weren't warned that Bush was ready to control demo the building?

You haven't even shown any evidence that they all jumped right before the collapses -.-

Now you are obfuscating....just like all truthers

It was viewed by millions that people started jumping minutes before the towers were controlled demoed. How could they have known the controlled demo would take place if they weren't tipped off?

You haven't yet established that they weren't simply jumping out because they were being burned alive inside -.-

Burned alive?

How could the moment they were being burned alive occur at the same time Bush was control demoing the building?

 

[phoenyx]

Now you're saying they all jumped at the exact moment the towers started to collapse -.-? If you can find evidence of that, by all means present it. To be honest, this is feeling a bit like Monty Python's argument clinic right now ...
L

How could they possibly have known when to jump if they weren't warned that Bush was ready to control demo the building?

You haven't even shown any evidence that they all jumped right before the collapses -.-

Now you are obfuscating....just like all truthers

It was viewed by millions that people started jumping minutes before the towers were controlled demoed. How could they have known the controlled demo would take place if they weren't tipped off?

You haven't yet established that they weren't simply jumping out because they were being burned alive inside -.-

Burned alive?

How could the moment they were being burned alive occur at the same time Bush was control demoing the building?

Sigh -.- Come on rightwinger, let's stop with this skit of a discussion and get to a real one. Do you believe the official story wholeheartedly?

 

[SAYIT]

How could they possibly have known when to jump if they weren't warned that Bush was ready to control demo the building?

You haven't even shown any evidence that they all jumped right before the collapses -.-

Now you are obfuscating....just like all truthers

It was viewed by millions that people started jumping minutes before the towers were controlled demoed. How could they have known the controlled demo would take place if they weren't tipped off?

You haven't yet established that they weren't simply jumping out because they were being burned alive inside -.-

Burned alive?

How could the moment they were being burned alive occur at the same time Bush was control demoing the building?

Sigh -.- Come on rightwinger, let's stop with this skit of a discussion and get to a real one. Do you believe the official story wholeheartedly?

Just to make it clear to you, RW seems to be saying his ridiculous 9/11 CTs are just as valid (or way more so) than any of the foil-hat alternatives you and the "Truther" Movement have produced in 15 years of trying to prove "the Joooo did it!" The fact that you can't seem to get any distance from this board's village idiot (9/11HandJob) says all one needs to know about you.
The question isn't if anyone believes "the official story wholeheartedly" but rather do any of the 9/11 CTs you promote make a lick of sense?
Answer:

 

[rightwinger]

How could they possibly have known when to jump if they weren't warned that Bush was ready to control demo the building?

You haven't even shown any evidence that they all jumped right before the collapses -.-

Now you are obfuscating....just like all truthers

It was viewed by millions that people started jumping minutes before the towers were controlled demoed. How could they have known the controlled demo would take place if they weren't tipped off?

You haven't yet established that they weren't simply jumping out because they were being burned alive inside -.-

Burned alive?

How could the moment they were being burned alive occur at the same time Bush was control demoing the building?

Sigh -.- Come on rightwinger, let's stop with this skit of a discussion and get to a real one. Do you believe the official story wholeheartedly?

Of course not...it was what I like to call an "inside job"

The towers were imploded by a controlled demo by both Bush and Clinton. They just had to wait for two planes to hit the towers......it was only a matter of time

 

[phoenyx]

You haven't even shown any evidence that they all jumped right before the collapses -.-

Now you are obfuscating....just like all truthers

It was viewed by millions that people started jumping minutes before the towers were controlled demoed. How could they have known the controlled demo would take place if they weren't tipped off?

You haven't yet established that they weren't simply jumping out because they were being burned alive inside -.-

Burned alive?

How could the moment they were being burned alive occur at the same time Bush was control demoing the building?

Sigh -.- Come on rightwinger, let's stop with this skit of a discussion and get to a real one. Do you believe the official story wholeheartedly?

Just to make it clear to you, RW seems to be saying his ridiculous 9/11 CTs are just as valid (or way more so) than any of the foil-hat alternatives you and the "Truther" Movement have produced in 15 years of trying to prove "the Joooo did it!"

Not the "Joo" thing again -.- Look, I know there are some CTers that believe that anything bad in the world was caused by jews, but I'm certainly not one of them. RW isn't providing any evidence for claims that he doesn't even believe to begin with. I played along for a bit, but I've now lost interest.

The fact that you can't seem to get any distance from this board's village [insults removed] says all one needs to know about you.

9/11 has his flaws (I think he's too quick to decide that someone is a shill, for instance), but I think that he has made some good points.

The question isn't if anyone believes "the official story wholeheartedly"

My question was if RW believes the official story wholeheartedly. I'm hoping he'll answer it instead of going on with theories that he doesn't even believe in.

...do any of the 9/11 CTs you promote make a lick of sense?

I and many others believe they make a lot more sense then any of the official narratives out there regarding 9/11.

 

[phoenyx]

You haven't even shown any evidence that they all jumped right before the collapses -.-

Now you are obfuscating....just like all truthers

It was viewed by millions that people started jumping minutes before the towers were controlled demoed. How could they have known the controlled demo would take place if they weren't tipped off?

You haven't yet established that they weren't simply jumping out because they were being burned alive inside -.-

Burned alive?

How could the moment they were being burned alive occur at the same time Bush was control demoing the building?

Sigh -.- Come on rightwinger, let's stop with this skit of a discussion and get to a real one. Do you believe the official story wholeheartedly?

Of course not...it was what I like to call an "inside job"

Sigh, never mind, carry on with your skit, I'll just opt out of it.

 

[Skylar]

There have been threads in this forum that address the general issue of what happened on 9/11. That being said, I have found that a lot of them are not neutral in their title- their titles imply that they are either for or against an official narrative. I started a thread with the same title as this one in another forum and after over 1000 posts, I think it's been fairly successful. Not sure if it'll work out here, but I thought I'd give it a go. I'll start by responding to someone who asked me to outline my view of what happened on 9/11 and who was behind it...

I've heard many theories as to what happened at the World Trade Center. As to the general outline of what happened on 9/11, I think I'll start with the general outline of both the official narrative of events, as well as the generally accepted outline of what those who disagree with it is, as outlined in a documentary film called Zeitgeist...

***
19 hijackers, directed by Osama Bin Laden, took over 4 commercial jets
with box cutters and, while evading the Air Defense System (NORAD), hit
75% of their targets. In turn, World Trade Towers 1, 2 & 7 collapsed due
to structural failure through fire in a "pancake" fashion, while the
plane that hit the Pentagon vaporized upon impact, as did the plane
that crashed in Shanksville. The 911 Commission found that there were
no warnings for this act of terrorism, while multiple government
failures prevented adequate defense.
***

I would like to ask anyone who sides with the official narrative if they essentially agree with this narrative.

As to what I believe, this is exemplified by the concluding statement of Zeitgeist in its 9/11 section:
***
Criminal Elements within the US government staged a "false flag" rerror
attack on its own citizens, in order to manipulate public perception
into supporting its agenda.

They have been doing these for years.

9/11 was an Inside Job.
***

For anyone considering responding to this thread for the first time, I ask that you consider briefly pointing out what you think happened on 9/11; it can be as simple as stating that you believe in one of the 2 summaries outlined above, or it can be more detailed. At that point, I will endeavour to comment on your entry, and explain why I agree or disagree with your point of view.

ADIZ were designed to track planes coming into the US from outside the US. Not to track commercial airliners within the US.

For those in the audience who don't know what ADIZ means:
**The Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) is an area surrounding much of North America – namely airspace surrounding the United States andCanada – in which the ready identification, location, and control of civil aircraft over land or water is required in the interest of national security.[1] This ADIZ is jointly administered by the civilian air traffic control authorities and the militaries of both nations, under the auspices of the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD). The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) handles the requests of international aircraft and Transport Canada handles Canadian requests. Any aircraft flying in these zones without authorization may be identified as a threat and treated as an enemy aircraft, potentially leading to interception by fighter aircraft.

An aircraft entering an ADIZ is required to radio its planned course, destination, and any additional details about its trip through the ADIZ to a higher authority, typically an air traffic controller. The aircraft must also be equipped with a radar transponder.**

Source: Air Defense Identification Zone (North America) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For domestic air travel transponders are used. NORAD didn't know about the hijacking of any of the planes until someone at a civilian air traffic control tower called and told them.

Which in the case of 2 of the planes was after the planes had already impacted. Making your 'evading ADIZ' claims disingenuous at best. And startlingly misinformed at worst.

I think you're overlooking something here. Namely the war games that were going on during 9/11:
**
WAR GAMES ON SEPTEMBER 11TH
On the very morning of 9/11/01, five war games and terror drills were being conducted by several U.S. defense agencies, including one "live fly" exercise using REAL planes. Then-Acting Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Richard B. Myers, admitted to 4 of the war games in congressional testimony -- see transcript here or video here (6 minutes and 12 seconds into the video).
Norad had run drills for several years of planes being used as weapons against the World Trade Center and other U.S. high-profile buildings, and "numerous types of civilian and military aircraft were used as mock hijacked aircraft". In other words, drills using REAL AIRCRAFT simulating terrorist attacks crashing jets into buildings, including the twin towers, were run. See also official military website showing 2000 military drill, using miniatures, involving a plane crashing into the Pentagon.
Indeed, a former Los Angeles police department investigator, whose newsletter is read by 45 members of congress, both the house and senate intelligence committees, and professors at more than 40 universities around the world, claims that he obtained an on-the-record confirmation from NORAD that ON 9/11, NORAD and the Joint Chiefs of Staff were conducting a joint, live-fly, hijack exercise which involved government-operated aircraft POSING AS HIJACKED AIRLINERS.
On September 11th, the government also happened to be running a simulation of a plane crashing into a building.
In addition, a December 9, 2001 Toronto Star article (pay-per-view; reprinted here), stated that "Operation Northern Vigilance is called off. Any simulated information, what's known as an 'inject,' is purged from the screens". This indicates that there were false radar blips inserted onto air traffic controllers' screens as part of the war game exercises.
Moreover, there are indications that some of the major war games previously scheduled for October 2001 were MOVED UP to September 11th by persons unknown.
Interestingly, Vice President Cheney was apparently in charge of ALL of the war games and coordinated the government's "response" to the attacks. See this Department of State announcement; this CNN article; and this previously-cited essay.
And while the government has consistently stated that it did not know where the aircraft were before they struck, this short video clip of the Secretary of Transportation's testimony before the 9/11 Commission shows that Cheney monitored flight 77 for many miles as it approached the Pentagon. How could one of the most heavily-defended buildings in the world have been successfully attacked, when the Vice President of the United States, in charge of counter-terrorism on 9/11, watched it approach from many miles away?
Moreover, a former air traffic controller, who knows the flight corridor which the two planes which hit the Twin Towers flew "like the back of my hand" and who handled two actual hijackings says that that planes can be tracked on radar even when their transponders are turned off, and that Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon tracked three of the four flights from the point of their hijacking to hitting their targets (also, listen to this interview).
Additionally, this diagram shows that the hijacked planes flew over numerous military bases on 9/11 before crashing. See also this essay regarding the stand down of the military; and see this war game proposal created before 9/11 revolving around Bin Laden and including "live-fly exercises" involving real planes, later confirmed by this official Department of Defense website.
Which scenario is more likely from a strictly logistical perspective:
(1) An outsider sitting in a cave defeating the air defense system of the sole military superpower; or
(2) Someone like Cheney -- who on 9/11 apparently had full control over all defense, war game and counter-terrorism powers -- rigging and gaming the system?
Remember that for the attacks to have succeeded, it was necessary that actions be taken in the middle of the war games and the actual attacks which would thwart the normal military response. For example, Cheney watched flight 77 approach the Pentagon from many miles out, but instructed the military to do nothing (as shown in the testimony of the Secretary of Transportation, linked above). Could Bin Laden have done that?
Fighter jets were also sent far off-course over the Atlantic Ocean in the middle of the attacks (testimony of Senator Mark Dayton), so as to neutralize their ability to intercept the hijacked airliners. Could Osama Bin Laden and his sent-from-the-cave band of followers have exercised this degree of control over the military? Obviously not.
And air traffic controllers claim they were still tracking what they thought were hijacked planes long after all 4 of the real planes had crashed. This implies that false radar blips remained on their screens after all 4 planes went down, long after the military claims they purged the phantom war-game-related radar signals. Could Bin Laden have interfered with the full purging of false radar blips inserted as part of the war games? In other words, could Bin Laden have overridden the purging process so that some false blips remained and confused air traffic controllers? The answer is clear.
Therefore, it is statistically much more likely that Cheney and/or other high-level U.S. government and military officials pulled the 9/11 trigger than that Bin Laden did it. At the very least, they took affirmative steps to guarantee that the hijackers' attacks succeeded.
As discussed previously, a former air force colonel and director of the Star Wars program stated "If our government had merely done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to happen on that morning of 9/11, the twin towers would still be standing, and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive. [T]hat is treason" **

Source: 911 Proof

And for those who want to know how ADIZ work in this country, its illustrated simply by this photo:

ADIZ are pointed outward, surrounding the US. They were not used for tracking civilian aircraft within the US until AFTER the 911.

The first ADIZ was established by the United States on December 27, 1950, shortly after President Truman had proclaimed a national emergency during the Korean War. [4] Following the September 11 attacks in 2001, when civilian commercial aircraft were utilized for mass destruction, ADIZ became prominent as a tool by which to monitor and control foreign aircraft entering a given national airspace.

Air Defense Identification Zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Instead, the monitoring of US airspace on 911 was delegated to the Air Route Traffic Control Centers. Which is a civilian network that wasn't directly connected to NORAD or the ADIZ on 911.

All of which phoenyx knows. But *really* hopes you don't. He wants you to believe that ADIZ and ARTCC are the same thing, despite knowing full well that they weren't.

Reminds me of some lines from V for Vendetta:
"A man as smart as you
has probably considered this.
A man as smart as you
probably has a plan."

Fact of the matter is, I didn't even know what ADIZ stood for until I googled it . But go on, make me out to be some villain that knows it all, it's entertaining if nothing else . I also see that you didn't address the points I made in the post you're responding to at all, namely the war games going on on 9/11.

And his 'evading the ADIZ' claims were a load of steaming horseshit.

Actually, I wrote:
"19 hijackers, directed by Osama Bin Laden, took over 4 commercial jets
with box cutters and, while evading the Air Defense System (NORAD), hit
75% of their targets."

No mention of ADIZ; like I said, I didn't even know what that meant, until you brought it up. Furthermore, the quote above wasn't actually my own words, they were part of the summary given in a documentary film named Zeitgeist. Based on what I know now, I definitely think that the ARTCC/ATC should have been mentioned. For those in the audience who haven't heard of the ARTCC before (like me, before I googled it), ARTCC stands for Air Route Traffic Control Center. NASA goes into more detail:
**
Center or Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC)
The first Air Traffic Control Center originated at Newark Airport, Newark, New Jersey, as a privately operatedventure formed by cooperative airline companies in October 1935. On July 8, 1936 the Department of Commerce's Civil Aeronautical Administration assumed operation of the air traffic responsibilities.

ARTCCs, usually referred to as "Centers," are established primarily to provide Air Traffic Service to aircraft operating on IFR flight plans within the controlled airspace, and principally during the en route phase of flight. There are 21 Air Route Traffic Control Centers (ARTCC)in the United States. Any aircraft operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) within the confines of an ARTCC's airspace is controlled by air traffic controllers at the Center. This includes all sorts of different types of aircraft: privately owned single engine aircraft, commuter airlines, military jets and commercial airlines.

The Federal Aviation Administration has made a long-term investment of tax dollars by providing the finest air traffic control service in the world. The largest component of the national airspace system is the Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC). Each ARTCC covers thousands of square miles encompassing all or part of several states. ARTCCs are built to ensure safe and expeditious air travel. All Centers operate 7 days a week, 24 hours a day and employ a combination of several hundred Air Traffic Control Specialists, Electronic Technicians, Computer System Specialists, Environmental Support Specialists, and administrative staff.**

Source: Air Traffic Management | Nasa

Speaking of the ARTCC, they were dealing with known hijackings. Up until July 31, 1997, commanders in the field could have done anything, even shoot down planes, without the need to get approval from the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld at the time of 9/11). This order was modified slightly in June 2001, so that commanders in the field could now intercept, but they still couldn't shoot down a plane without Rumsfeld's permission. There was more blocking the U.S.'s air defense on 9/11, however:
**If it is true that the standing orders would have required approval by the Secretary of Defense for intercepts on 9/11/01, then, in theory, a defacto stand-down could have been implemented by the secretary simply failing to act during the crisis. However, it is doubtful that insiders planning the attack would have relied on the orders alone to assure that there was no effective military response to the attack. It was likely one of a number of "fixes" that included multiple war games planned on the day of the attack. Thus, even if commanders violated standing orders and ordered intercepts of the commandeered jetliners, they would face depleted interceptor resources and corrupted flight data.**

Source: 9-11 Review: The 'Stand-Down Order'

Its the ADIZ that NORAD monitors, which as you knew, surround the US like a donut. We know you know this as the very source you drew your quotes from included diagrams of ADIZ....which you intentionally and rather conspicuously omitted.

But you didn't want us to know that, despite it being the immediately relevant to your NORAD narrative. This is the territory that NORAD monitors directly. A place none of the planes on 911 went and you *know* they never went.

As I've said, your argument relies on our ignorance. The more we know, the less your claims work. And you know it.

Speaking of the ARTCC, they were dealing with known hijackings. Up until July 31, 1997, commanders in the field could have done anything, even shoot down planes, without the need to get approval from the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld at the time of 9/11).

You're claiming that until 1997, that ARTCC 'commanders' could have ordered planes be shot down b the US military?

Prove it. Your word is already pretty much garbage. Especially since you *just* changed your time line. As just last page, you insisted that it was 2001, not 1997.

Actually, the planes could have been shot down up until around June 2001, and once again shortly after September 11, 2001. The rules were changed in between those time periods, though, making America's air defense terribly vulnerable:

9/11: What really happened on that day?

Were you lying then, or are you lying now?

Or worse, do you just have no idea what you're talking about...and are just apeing what you've been told to think without even reading what you're posting?

 

[rightwinger]

If you check the original design of the Twin Towers you will see it was designed by Jews. They designed secret control demo charges into the towers so that when the day came that the towers were hit by two jets flying at 500 mph, the Jews could blame the Saudi hijackers.
It is what I have labeled an "inside job" by the Jews, NWO, Bilderberg and Obama

 

[rightwinger]

Now you are obfuscating....just like all truthers

It was viewed by millions that people started jumping minutes before the towers were controlled demoed. How could they have known the controlled demo would take place if they weren't tipped off?

You haven't yet established that they weren't simply jumping out because they were being burned alive inside -.-

Burned alive?

How could the moment they were being burned alive occur at the same time Bush was control demoing the building?

Sigh -.- Come on rightwinger, let's stop with this skit of a discussion and get to a real one. Do you believe the official story wholeheartedly?

Of course not...it was what I like to call an "inside job"

Sigh, never mind, carry on with your skit, I'll just opt out of it.

Another truther fails to disprove the logic of my theories

 

[Skylar]

If you check the original design of the Twin Towers you will see it was designed by Jews. They designed secret control demo charges into the towers so that when the day came that the towers were hit by two jets flying at 500 mph, the Jews could blame the Saudi hijackers.
It is what I have labeled an "inside job" by the Jews, NWO, Bilderberg and Obama

Leslie Robertson wasn't a jew to the best of my knowledge.

 

[SAYIT]

If you check the original design .of the Twin Towers you will see it was designed by Jews. They designed secret control demo charges into the towers so that when the day came that the towers were hit by two jets flying at 500 mph, the Jews could blame the Saudi hijackers.
It is what I have labeled an "inside job" by the Jews, NWO, Bilderberg and Obama

You forgot the Illuminati and the Spiders form Mars.

I can't believe after all these years I've found common ground with a loony lefty. These 9/11 foil-hatters have a way of bringing people together, eh?

 

[Skylar]

We don't like to think that so few people can do so much damage so easily,

It all depends on the "few people" you're talking about...

In this case we're talking about people who understand how a low tech attack can take by surprise a people who rely on high tech defenses. Sure, if they had launched an ICBM at the US, we'd probably have shot it down or at the least turned the place it came from into a parking lot, but they knew our policy on highjackers was to give them whatever they demanded in the hope that we could get the hostages back. That means they knew there was no way any of the airliners would be shot down, which in turn meant they knew they had a clear shot at their chosen targets. They won't do it that way again because we would stop them before they could hit their targets, so they use other methods.

Actually, the planes could have been shot down up until around June 2001, and once again shortly after September 11, 2001. The rules were changed in between those time periods, though, making America's air defense terribly vulnerable:
**
"The decades-old procedure for a quick response by the nation's air defense had been changed in June of 2001. Now, instead of NORAD's military commanders being able to issue the command to launch fighter jets, approval had to be sought from the civilian Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld. This change is extremely significant, because Mr. Rumsfeld claims to have been "out of the loop" nearly the entire morning of 9/11. ... The families of the vanished bodies and unsettled souls of 9/11 are still waiting to have the dots connected."

June 21, 2004, New York Observer, '9/11 Tapes Reveal Ground Personnel Muffled Attacks'
**

Source: The Failure to Intercept: Questions for Bush, Rumsfeld, FAA about 911 activities

Below is an excerpt from an interview with a former Air Traffic Controller, Robin Hordon:
**
After eleven eventful years as an ATC, Hordon naturally reacted with shock when he first heard that fifty years of tried and true in-flight emergency protocol was abruptly altered in June of 2001, just two months before the attacks.

“Rumsfeld put a third party in between the ATC and the Air Defense Controller responsible for scrambling interceptors —the Pentagon.”

He speculates that “the phone calls went from the FAA to the Pentagon and were not answered. Therefore the Pentagon never reached down to the ADC base to release the aircraft. The Boston Center’s ATCs got so frustrated with the non-answer from the military that they finally said, ‘get these guys going anyways.’ That’s the way it’s been for fifty years. We scramble aircraft. We don’t wait for OK’s from third or fourth parties.”

The no-show status of the U.S. military on the morning of September 11th, 2001, has understandably become the single most compelling point that 9/11 researchers, writers and activists use to support their claims of complicity on the part of the U.S government (and its military and intelligence apparatus) in the attacks. When even those who condemn “conspiracy theory” in regard to 9/11 have questioned the military’s conduct that morning, it’s clear that this anomaly is worthy of intense concern and diligent investigation. Whatever the case may be, there are no doubts that history’s largest and most technologically advanced military was apparently caught completely off guard by four huge hijacked passenger jets that were in the air for almost two hours on the crystal clear morning of 9/11.**

Source: The First Fifteen Minutes of September 11th

The procedure was changed back to normal shortly after 9/11.

And if the planes had been foreign fighter jets or bombers, aka a clear threat, there would have been no question. Remember, we were dealing with unknowns. We didn't know where the planes were going to be flown, what was going to be done with them, if there were going to be ransom demands, anything. At that point, we couldn't risk shooting them down because of the passengers.

Initially we didn't even know where the planes were, as they were being tracked largely by secondary radar.

The civilian system of air traffic control uses primary and secondary radar systems. Primary radar usually centered around airports with ping and receive radar towers bouncing radar waves off of the planes. They extend from airports for 60 to 100 miles or so. Secondary radar simply monintors transponders on the planes. These transponders transmit information on the plane, its location, its identification, etc. This is the system used between airports and coverage for primary radar.

The hijackers disabled the transponders on the planes. Which means to the civilian system, they didn't exist between primary radar coverage.

 

[PredFan]

You misunderstand. I am not saying that the government is lying, I'm saying that an investigation after the fact cannot answer all of the questions and tell the whole story. We may never know the whole truth because it isn't possible to know.

You may be right on that one; the whole truth concerning 9/11 is quite a lot of information. But I certainly believe that many (including myself) can learn a lot more then we currently know of the event.

Of course the government has covered up things but in every case that you mention except for the JFK Assassination and WMDs, they have not been able to keep quiet. JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald and Saddam Hussein definitely had WMDs.

So you don't find Howard Hunt's confession to be credible, I take it? As to your notion that Saddam Hussein definitely had WMDs, I know that this has been claimed, but I haven't seen any real evidence to back it up.

No, Hunt is grandstanding.

How are you so sure? It seems his primary purpose was to tell his children, not to tell the media. It was his children who told the media.

If you haven't seen any evidence that Saddam had WMDs then you haven't been looking. Saddam Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of Kurds with his WMDs, that is an easily proven fact. But this is off the point.

Yeah, it's off the point, but we could always make a new thread if it really got going. I'm not saying that Saddam Hussein didn't have chemical weapons at the time of the first gulf war. What I'd like to see is evidence that they still had it before Bush Jr. invaded.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

True. Ofcourse, that logic can be used to argue for the existence of invisible unicorns and elves on Mars. You're free to do it, but don't expect me to go along for the ride .

He had WMDs, he used them, there's no reason to believe that he used them all and what did we give him? 30-40 days advance notice before we attacked?

The strongest evidence that he had no chemical weapons left is in the fact that none were ever found after Bush Jr.'s invasion. Like you said, absence of proof and even absence of evidence is not proof of its lack, but that doesn't mean I'm going to believe in invisible unicorns just because no one has proven they don't exist.

Piss poor analogy. In order for your comparison to work, unicorns would have to be a fact. The WMDs were a fact.
Sorry, you seem to have two problems that will make a rational discussion about 9-11 very difficult; 1. a refusal or inability to see the logical, and 2, a refusal to admit when you are wrong.

 

[Faun]

The corrupt mainstream media told us that people were jumping from the towers because the flames were so hot and the building was becoming unbearable

But we know better. People jumped because they knew a controlled demo was coming

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

I am a conspiracy theorist, I do not need evidence

There are 2 types of conspiracy theorists. Those who don't care about the evidence (many official conspiracy theorists belong in this category) and those who do. You are clearly in the former category. Good luck with that.

You asked us to provide our theories of what REALLY happened and I did.

Come on rightwinger, do you honestly believe anyone believes you actually believe these "theories" you've put out? Furthermore, a good theory has to be backed up by evidence. Otherwise, it's just quackery.

I've seen rightwinger posting for some time and can tell he's serious as shit.

 

[Faun]

You asked us to provide our theories of what REALLY happened and I did.

Come on rightwinger, do you honestly believe anyone believes you actually believe these "theories" you've put out? Furthermore, a good theory has to be backed up by evidence. Otherwise, it's just quackery.

My theories are the only ones that makes sense.

Sigh. Look, even if you actually believed your "theory", I'd -still- ask you to provide evidence for it. And if you couldn't, I'd leave it by the curb.

I knew you couldn't debunk my theory.

You don't believe in it anyway. But as I said, even if you -did- believe in a given theory, it's up to -you- to provide evidence that it's true. If you can't do that, people will generally just ignore you. Which I should probably get back to doing...

Don't get injured with the irony of you promoting the theory of a Pentagon fly over with absolutely zero evidence to support it.

 

[Divine Wind]

...I am anti- semetic jerk....

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile.

 

[Divine Wind]

So you're saying that no government official could possibly contemplate killing their own people -.-?

Incorrect, but it's unsurprising you fail to see the point.

 

[Divine Wind]

my ignore list growns larger with another israel shill that has penetrated this site.

Excellent. It's a lot more fun when nutjobs don't post dozens of bullshit replies to my comments. Enjoy your ignore-ance.

 

[Divine Wind]

someone farted in here.^

It's you.