8 dead, including gunman, at multiple homes in Missouri

[M14 Shooter]

Who is anti-gun? I'm just saying something needs to be done about these white savages that are shooting up 8 - 10 people at a time.

Seems to me they either kill themselves, the police kill them, or they wind up in prison.
What do you suggest we do about them?

 

[JohnAdams]

Just goes to show that living in a gun loving country can be bad for your health. Just ask the victims, not the conservatives.

 

[2aguy]

Just goes to show that living in a gun loving country can be bad for your health. Just ask the victims, not the conservatives.

Actually, gun loving Americans stop 1.6 million crimes each year on average....using guns....and we are the #1 country for gun ownership but only in the back 90s for murder rates.....and Britan is twice as violent as we are and with over 32o million guns in private hands we only have 8-9,000 gun murders a year, and those take place in small, multi block areas of inner cities...the most dangerous of which are controlled by democrat gun grabbers....and if you took away the murder rates,of a few blue state we would have a gun murder rate as low as Europe....

so we don't have a gun problem....we have a gun using gang problem.....

 

[Brain357]

Just goes to show that living in a gun loving country can be bad for your health. Just ask the victims, not the conservatives.

Actually, gun loving Americans stop 1.6 million crimes each year on average....using guns....and we are the #1 country for gun ownership but only in the back 90s for murder rates.....and Britan is twice as violent as we are and with over 32o million guns in private hands we only have 8-9,000 gun murders a year, and those take place in small, multi block areas of inner cities...the most dangerous of which are controlled by democrat gun grabbers....and if you took away the murder rates,of a few blue state we would have a gun murder rate as low as Europe....

so we don't have a gun problem....we have a gun using gang problem.....

That 1.6 million is greatly exaggerated. First it comes from flawed surveys filled with false positives. Then the newest ones are over 20 years old so crime rates have come down about 30% since then. And then many of those defenders are actually involved in criminal activity themselves...

 

[2aguy]

Just goes to show that living in a gun loving country can be bad for your health. Just ask the victims, not the conservatives.

Actually, gun loving Americans stop 1.6 million crimes each year on average....using guns....and we are the #1 country for gun ownership but only in the back 90s for murder rates.....and Britan is twice as violent as we are and with over 32o million guns in private hands we only have 8-9,000 gun murders a year, and those take place in small, multi block areas of inner cities...the most dangerous of which are controlled by democrat gun grabbers....and if you took away the murder rates,of a few blue state we would have a gun murder rate as low as Europe....

so we don't have a gun problem....we have a gun using gang problem.....

That 1.6 million is greatly exaggerated. First it comes from flawed surveys filled with false positives. Then the newest ones are over 20 years old so crime rates have come down about 30% since then. And then many of those defenders are actually involved in criminal activity themselves...

No brain...it doesn't Kleck's survey methods were the best available at the time and again you lie about the people in the surveys, of the crimials you describe...some of the respondents may have been law abiding citizens who carried guns for protection without permits, not gang members or drug dealers...18 surveys took a look at people defending themselves with guns and say you are wrong...and the 1.6 million is an average of all the surveys I have available so far........an average of those surveys conducted by both public and private researchers, anti gun researchers and researchers like Kleck who was an anti gunner, and other neutral researchers, done over a 40 year period.....two studies done by anti gun presidents....clinton's Just. Dept. in 1995, and obama's CDC in 2013...and they both confirmed numbers over 1.5 million.....in their own studies.......

And again....crime is down 30%.....after more Americans have bought, own and carry guns for self defense....over 11.1 million people now carry guns for self defense and the crime rate went down.....not up......so people with guns are not the problem.....criminals with guns are......

 

[Brain357]

Just goes to show that living in a gun loving country can be bad for your health. Just ask the victims, not the conservatives.

Actually, gun loving Americans stop 1.6 million crimes each year on average....using guns....and we are the #1 country for gun ownership but only in the back 90s for murder rates.....and Britan is twice as violent as we are and with over 32o million guns in private hands we only have 8-9,000 gun murders a year, and those take place in small, multi block areas of inner cities...the most dangerous of which are controlled by democrat gun grabbers....and if you took away the murder rates,of a few blue state we would have a gun murder rate as low as Europe....

so we don't have a gun problem....we have a gun using gang problem.....

That 1.6 million is greatly exaggerated. First it comes from flawed surveys filled with false positives. Then the newest ones are over 20 years old so crime rates have come down about 30% since then. And then many of those defenders are actually involved in criminal activity themselves...

No brain...it doesn't Kleck's survey methods were the best available at the time and again you lie about the people in the surveys, of the crimials you describe...some of the respondents may have been law abiding citizens who carried guns for protection without permits, not gang members or drug dealers...18 surveys took a look at people defending themselves with guns and say you are wrong...and the 1.6 million is an average of all the surveys I have available so far........an average of those surveys conducted by both public and private researchers, anti gun researchers and researchers like Kleck who was an anti gunner, and other neutral researchers, done over a 40 year period.....two studies done by anti gun presidents....clinton's Just. Dept. in 1995, and obama's CDC in 2013...and they both confirmed numbers over 1.5 million.....in their own studies.......

And again....crime is down 30%.....after more Americans have bought, own and carry guns for self defense....over 11.1 million people now carry guns for self defense and the crime rate went down.....not up......so people with guns are not the problem.....criminals with guns are......

None of that changes what I said. Your 1.6 is a greatly exaggerated number. You even admit crime is down 30%, so your imaginary number should be decreased by that same amount. Kleck has said most defenders are involved in criminal activity. I'm pretty sure the same gang bangers who are killing people are often using those same guns as a defense. Nothing in the surveys would disqualify these types of defenses. Except the NCVS survey would weed them out and they estimate 108,000 or so defenses each year.

 

[2aguy]

This is what Dr. Kleck said about his study....this month in 2015.....

Defensive Gun Use Is Not a Myth - Gary Kleck - POLITICO Magazine

In order for a survey respondent to report a typical DGU, she or he must be willing to report all three of the following elements of the event: (1) a crime victimization experience, (2) his or her possession of a gun, and (3) his or her own commission of a crime. The last element is relevant because most DGUs occur away from the user’s home, and only about 1 percent of the population in 1993, when we conducted our survey, had a permit that allowed them to legally carry a gun through public spaces.

Thus, although survey-reported defensive gun uses themselves rarely involve criminal behavior (that is, the defender did not use the gun to commit a criminal assault or other offense), most (at least back in 1993) involved unlawful possession of a gun in a public place by the defender.

 

[Brain357]

This is what Dr. Kleck said about his study....this month in 2015.....

Defensive Gun Use Is Not a Myth - Gary Kleck - POLITICO Magazine

Yes defending his study again. Nothing really new there though he says now guns might be used more in defense than in crime. His previous exaggeration was like 3-4 times more. Have you determined why he flip flops on whether most defenses are at home or in public yet? Seems it depends on what part of his flawed survey he is defending...

 

[2aguy]

Brain....you now know the National Crime Victimization Survey is not a survey about defensive gun use.....it is about people and the type of crime they experienced...it doesn't even claim to study the issue of gun use in self defense.......and yet you still try to put that against actual studies that directly study the issue of guns used in self defense....18 different studies on the subject.....

There is no way the NCVS can even be close to accurate on defensive gun use because that is not what it is studying.....

Again....it would be like doing a study on attendance at professional sporting events......and then as a follow up question asking if they ate or drank at the stadium...and then saying that whatever that result was is a definitive look at soft drink consumption in the U.S. population....

You are wrong brain......

 

[Brain357]

This is what Dr. Kleck said about his study....this month in 2015.....

Defensive Gun Use Is Not a Myth - Gary Kleck - POLITICO Magazine

In order for a survey respondent to report a typical DGU, she or he must be willing to report all three of the following elements of the event: (1) a crime victimization experience, (2) his or her possession of a gun, and (3) his or her own commission of a crime. The last element is relevant because most DGUs occur away from the user’s home, and only about 1 percent of the population in 1993, when we conducted our survey, had a permit that allowed them to legally carry a gun through public spaces.

Thus, although survey-reported defensive gun uses themselves rarely involve criminal behavior (that is, the defender did not use the gun to commit a criminal assault or other offense), most (at least back in 1993) involved unlawful possession of a gun in a public place by the defender.

Yes so he wasn't committing a crime at the time of the defense. And unlawful possession can include felons.

 

[2aguy]

This is what Dr. Kleck said about his study....this month in 2015.....

Defensive Gun Use Is Not a Myth - Gary Kleck - POLITICO Magazine

Yes defending his study again. Nothing really new there though he says now guns might be used more in defense than in crime. His previous exaggeration was like 3-4 times more. Have you determined why he flip flops on whether most defenses are at home or in public yet? Seems it depends on what part of his flawed survey he is defending...

brain....distorting again...he changes nothing, and simply responds to the new, old criticisms of his study from the 90s...you are trying to say he changed something when he didn't.....his study, and it's questions, and it's results are freely available to anyone interested...and he responds to all of his critics in separate, detailed papers addressing all of their fake made up numbers and complaints.......as he does here in 2015......

brain....you should stop thinking like a liberal gun grabber...you would be more honest if you did......

 

[2aguy]

and again....

Defensive Gun Use Is Not a Myth - Gary Kleck - POLITICO Magazine

In order for a survey respondent to report a typical DGU, she or he must be willing to report all three of the following elements of the event: (1) a crime victimization experience, (2) his or her possession of a gun, and (3) his or her own commission of a crime. The last element is relevant because most DGUs occur away from the user’s home, and only about 1 percent of the population in 1993, when we conducted our survey, had a permit that allowed them to legally carry a gun through public spaces.

Thus, although survey-reported defensive gun uses themselves rarely involve criminal behavior (that is, the defender did not use the gun to commit a criminal assault or other offense), most (at least back in 1993) involved unlawful possession of a gun in a public place by the defender.

 

[Brain357]

Brain....you now know the National Crime Victimization Survey is not a survey about defensive gun use.....it is about people and the type of crime they experienced...it doesn't even claim to study the issue of gun use in self defense.......and yet you still try to put that against actual studies that directly study the issue of guns used in self defense....18 different studies on the subject.....

There is no way the NCVS can even be close to accurate on defensive gun use because that is not what it is studying.....

Again....it would be like doing a study on attendance at professional sporting events......and then as a follow up question asking if they ate or drank at the stadium...and then saying that whatever that result was is a definitive look at soft drink consumption in the U.S. population....

You are wrong brain......

Tell me why those surveys wouldn't include defenses by lots of criminals? You have armed people in high crime areas. Common sense says they would be the majority of defenses. Is there something in the surveys that would exclude them?

 

[Brain357]

This is what Dr. Kleck said about his study....this month in 2015.....

Defensive Gun Use Is Not a Myth - Gary Kleck - POLITICO Magazine

Yes defending his study again. Nothing really new there though he says now guns might be used more in defense than in crime. His previous exaggeration was like 3-4 times more. Have you determined why he flip flops on whether most defenses are at home or in public yet? Seems it depends on what part of his flawed survey he is defending...

brain....distorting again...he changes nothing, and simply responds to the new, old criticisms of his study from the 90s...you are trying to say he changed something when he didn't.....his study, and it's questions, and it's results are freely available to anyone interested...and he responds to all of his critics in separate, detailed papers addressing all of their fake made up numbers and complaints.......as he does here in 2015......

brain....you should stop thinking like a liberal gun grabber...you would be more honest if you did......

Seems I am thinking like an honest person with common sense. I have quoted where he said most defenses are at home. This new article now says they are in public. Why did he flip flop? Lott said in your email all his were home defenses.

 

[2aguy]

Brain....you now know the National Crime Victimization Survey is not a survey about defensive gun use.....it is about people and the type of crime they experienced...it doesn't even claim to study the issue of gun use in self defense.......and yet you still try to put that against actual studies that directly study the issue of guns used in self defense....18 different studies on the subject.....

There is no way the NCVS can even be close to accurate on defensive gun use because that is not what it is studying.....

Again....it would be like doing a study on attendance at professional sporting events......and then as a follow up question asking if they ate or drank at the stadium...and then saying that whatever that result was is a definitive look at soft drink consumption in the U.S. population....

You are wrong brain......

Tell me why those surveys wouldn't include defenses by lots of criminals? You have armed people in high crime areas. Common sense says they would be the majority of defenses. Is there something in the surveys that would exclude them?

yeah....criminals don't tell strangers on the phone they committed crimes...or who they are....or what they are doing, or that if they are felons...that they have been using guns, since it is illegal for felons to own or carry guns.....one very basic, simple reason...they may think the unknown person on the phone is a cop...............regular folk who have been the victims of a crime aren't as afraid to say so......

 

[Brain357]

and again....

Defensive Gun Use Is Not a Myth - Gary Kleck - POLITICO Magazine

In order for a survey respondent to report a typical DGU, she or he must be willing to report all three of the following elements of the event: (1) a crime victimization experience, (2) his or her possession of a gun, and (3) his or her own commission of a crime. The last element is relevant because most DGUs occur away from the user’s home, and only about 1 percent of the population in 1993, when we conducted our survey, had a permit that allowed them to legally carry a gun through public spaces.

Thus, although survey-reported defensive gun uses themselves rarely involve criminal behavior (that is, the defender did not use the gun to commit a criminal assault or other offense), most (at least back in 1993) involved unlawful possession of a gun in a public place by the defender.

Yes I know at the time of the defense the defender is not committing a crime other than unlawful gun possession(often a felon). But that doesn't mean that the day before he didn't rob a store or that he isn't a drug dealer. It just means that that he wasn't selling drugs during the actual defense.

 

[2aguy]

This is what Dr. Kleck said about his study....this month in 2015.....

Defensive Gun Use Is Not a Myth - Gary Kleck - POLITICO Magazine

Yes defending his study again. Nothing really new there though he says now guns might be used more in defense than in crime. His previous exaggeration was like 3-4 times more. Have you determined why he flip flops on whether most defenses are at home or in public yet? Seems it depends on what part of his flawed survey he is defending...

brain....distorting again...he changes nothing, and simply responds to the new, old criticisms of his study from the 90s...you are trying to say he changed something when he didn't.....his study, and it's questions, and it's results are freely available to anyone interested...and he responds to all of his critics in separate, detailed papers addressing all of their fake made up numbers and complaints.......as he does here in 2015......

brain....you should stop thinking like a liberal gun grabber...you would be more honest if you did......

Seems I am thinking like an honest person with common sense. I have quoted where he said most defenses are at home. This new article now says they are in public. Why did he flip flop? Lott said in your email all his were home defenses.

Brain...read his actual study.....do you really think he poured through his old research for that quick rebuttal....in politico......please.....try to be honest.....

 

[2aguy]

Again....actual criminals are not going to admit to a stranger on the phone that they have comitted more felonies by using a gun for self defense...even justified...since even using a gun for justified self defense will put them back in prison....since it is long established that it is against the law for felons to use guns..........

 

[Brain357]

Brain....you now know the National Crime Victimization Survey is not a survey about defensive gun use.....it is about people and the type of crime they experienced...it doesn't even claim to study the issue of gun use in self defense.......and yet you still try to put that against actual studies that directly study the issue of guns used in self defense....18 different studies on the subject.....

There is no way the NCVS can even be close to accurate on defensive gun use because that is not what it is studying.....

Again....it would be like doing a study on attendance at professional sporting events......and then as a follow up question asking if they ate or drank at the stadium...and then saying that whatever that result was is a definitive look at soft drink consumption in the U.S. population....

You are wrong brain......

Tell me why those surveys wouldn't include defenses by lots of criminals? You have armed people in high crime areas. Common sense says they would be the majority of defenses. Is there something in the surveys that would exclude them?

yeah....criminals don't tell strangers on the phone they committed crimes...or who they are....or what they are doing, or that if they are felons...that they have been using guns, since it is illegal for felons to own or carry guns.....one very basic, simple reason...they may think the unknown person on the phone is a cop...............regular folk who have been the victims of a crime aren't as afraid to say so......

Wait those are all the same reasons Kleck gives for the NCVS to not be accurate. Klecks survey is supposed to include all defenses. He can't claim those for why the NCVS is inaccurate and claim them for why his survey doesn't include criminal defenses. Again he seems to need both depending on what part of his flawed survey he is defending.

 

[Brain357]

This is what Dr. Kleck said about his study....this month in 2015.....

Defensive Gun Use Is Not a Myth - Gary Kleck - POLITICO Magazine

Yes defending his study again. Nothing really new there though he says now guns might be used more in defense than in crime. His previous exaggeration was like 3-4 times more. Have you determined why he flip flops on whether most defenses are at home or in public yet? Seems it depends on what part of his flawed survey he is defending...

brain....distorting again...he changes nothing, and simply responds to the new, old criticisms of his study from the 90s...you are trying to say he changed something when he didn't.....his study, and it's questions, and it's results are freely available to anyone interested...and he responds to all of his critics in separate, detailed papers addressing all of their fake made up numbers and complaints.......as he does here in 2015......

brain....you should stop thinking like a liberal gun grabber...you would be more honest if you did......

Seems I am thinking like an honest person with common sense. I have quoted where he said most defenses are at home. This new article now says they are in public. Why did he flip flop? Lott said in your email all his were home defenses.

Brain...read his actual study.....do you really think he poured through his old research for that quick rebuttal....in politico......please.....try to be honest.....

It's a pretty important claim. Why the flip flop?