CDZ 5 Reasons Milton Freedman Supported Guaranteed Income for Families

[JimBowie1958]

View attachment 313236

You cannot draw an analogy between interactions between individuals vrs citizens to government taxation.

Governments have rights of sovereignty, and domain while individuals do not.

Only so long as the government believes it has the power to do whatever it choses.

*****SMILE*****

And you dont think that the monarchy of Robert the Bruce would have powers of taxation and sovereignty?\

roflmao

 

[Damaged Eagle]

View attachment 313236

You cannot draw an analogy between interactions between individuals vrs citizens to government taxation.

Governments have rights of sovereignty, and domain while individuals do not.

Only so long as the government believes it has the power to do whatever it choses.

*****SMILE*****

And you dont think that the monarchy of Robert the Bruce would have powers of taxation and sovereignty?\

roflmao

You don't think that Robert the Bruce would still have to answer to the people in some form without resistance?

People will follow a ruler unless they feel they no longer have anything to lose.

*****SMILE*****

 

[flacaltenn]

lol at '$1,300 a month' or so. Friedman's last estimate of what minimum wage should be that I remember seeing, back in the early 2000's, was around $43K per year, substantially more than the $15.6K mentioned here.

I don't consider it humane or wise to promote the SALARIES of jobs and NOT "promote the person"... Those jobs are largely endangered and are NOT CAREERS... Automation is not the killer of jobs.. Lack of knowledge and skills is... Promoting the PERSON breaks the "income gap"... Paying inflated wages for a menial, dead end job does not.

HOW LONG you want UNDERSKILLED people to have to remain in mind-numbing, low skilled jobs paying the same as semi-skilled jobs?? It's a bandaid, not anything close to a solution to "the gap"...

I actually believe that "min wage" should ONLY APPLY to people who are actively enrolled in academics, vocational training or seniors... And if you DID THAT -- MANY companies would find it cheaper and better for public relations to KICK IN subsidies to PUT their unskilled labor into "continuing education" of some kind...

You do realize there are people who are only capable of pushing a broom, cleaning windows, and other menial jobs, because they can't do any truly skilled labor without constant supervision. Math is beyond them, reading and writing is elementary at best, and little to no social skills, limit them to those menial jobs.

*****SMILE*****

Enhanced skills are NEVER "beyond" anyone.. It's breaking a culture of believing academics and learning is "biased" or "too white" --- (or "yellow")... When you drop out in 10th or 11th grade, you don't KNOW what options are alternatives to "pushing a broom" and you largely DO NOT care...

For those with ACTUAL mental deficits, they MAY be required to work those jobs.. BUT -- they are a very SMALL portion of the "min skilled" labor force.. And the Downs kids working in my grocery store are THRILLED to be contributing at their highest level...

 

[flacaltenn]

WHY are you comparing the fast food labor to gulags and slave labor? WHY are you determined to make them comfortable in endangered dead end jobs for the rest of their lives? HOW does that "relieve poverty" or "the gap"????

I could take a busload of kids at a burger joint and coach and train them to have REAL careers.. They are not DUMB... They never been motivated to learn... Because our public education system has stigmatized them with increasingly LOWERED EXPECTATIONS.. You have NO RESPECT for these young people... You're tossing money at a problem you have NO IDEA how to solve...

That only works so long as the supervisor/trainer is honest and not threatened by the idea that one of those they're supervising/training might replace them.

*****SMILE*****

Franchises and chains grow... Some of the most successful folks in the country HAD those jobs.. But the MAJORITY of "min wage" workers are and SHOULD BE transient -- and on their way to BETTER things...

I was offered several REALLY inticing jobs while working thru schooling.. One was with Hawaiian Tropic when it was in its infancy... Could have been judging bikini contests and flying a private jet instead of taking Organic Chem and Differential Equations.. I was merely selling sun tan lotion at a large beach resort while lifeguarding.. THAT's how "transient" jobs are supposed to work...

 

[DOTR]

So if we stopped welfare programs and used a universal income instead, we would be able to pay each adult $1302/month, well within existing welfare costs.

View attachment 313061

Whers the option to just stop welfare programs?

 

[flacaltenn]

Tom Cotton Floats Universal Basic Income for Coronavirus Crisis

Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR) is floating a plan to “get cash into the hands of affected workers and their families” due to national shutdowns of businesses in nearly every industry from the coronavirus outbreak.

In a series of posts online and in a Fox News Channel interview, Cotton said American workers who are being forced to stay home from their jobs due to shutdowns in the midst of the coronavirus crisis need immediate relief in the form of cash payments.

The monetary policy, known as Universal Basic Income (UBI), has made its way into the national spotlight over the last year thanks to businessman Andrew Yang. The policy could mean that American citizens affected by the coronavirus shutdowns would get $1,000 a month in cash.

Cotton suggested using existing social welfare agencies to put “cash in the hands of affected families.”

“We don’t want to see layoffs, we want to see people who are at home, if they have any reason to be at home, supported immediately,” Cotton said.​

So I guess the President's idea of sending EVERYONE who makes under $75,000/yr a check for $1,000 is off the table? Dang.

Should be.. It's the UNEMPLOYED that need the support... And right now, Unemployment offices are OVERWHELMED and underfunded... This "direct payment" thing is purely "economy insurance" and is not TARGETED wisely...

 

[flacaltenn]

A lot of dissembling that of course avoids the issue of merely adjusting minimum wage for real inflation, based on the premise that it would make the floor on wages here higher than the wages in Third World totalitarian police states where the factories look like prison block houses, complete with walls topped with barbed wire to keep the 'contract employees from escaping.

What is this? DO YOU think it's humane and wise to INFLATE the wage of the menial dead end job -- RATHER THAN --- inflate the POTENTIAL of that person and REALLY attack poverty and "the gap" at it's roots?????
\

lol so poof, suddenly everybody now has a PhD; now what? You think there are jobs for 334 million doctorates?

Reducto ad DumDum... A tool chest of skills does not EVEN IMPLY a graduate degree.. It DOES include MORE than a GED... It requires finding things that light FIRES of inspiration for learning under someone.. It's like medical treatment that's targeted to specific DNA... Maybe that fire is becoming a sound editor, cameraman.. Maybe that fire is fixing cars.. I think you're purposely not caring about the people who are doomed from lack of intellectual curiosity and interest in learning....

 

[flacaltenn]

THAT is 10 times more HUMANE and meaningful than making these doomed comfortable in dead end jobs by redistributing income and INFLATING non-skilled wages...

 

[Damaged Eagle]

lol at '$1,300 a month' or so. Friedman's last estimate of what minimum wage should be that I remember seeing, back in the early 2000's, was around $43K per year, substantially more than the $15.6K mentioned here.

I don't consider it humane or wise to promote the SALARIES of jobs and NOT "promote the person"... Those jobs are largely endangered and are NOT CAREERS... Automation is not the killer of jobs.. Lack of knowledge and skills is... Promoting the PERSON breaks the "income gap"... Paying inflated wages for a menial, dead end job does not.

HOW LONG you want UNDERSKILLED people to have to remain in mind-numbing, low skilled jobs paying the same as semi-skilled jobs?? It's a bandaid, not anything close to a solution to "the gap"...

I actually believe that "min wage" should ONLY APPLY to people who are actively enrolled in academics, vocational training or seniors... And if you DID THAT -- MANY companies would find it cheaper and better for public relations to KICK IN subsidies to PUT their unskilled labor into "continuing education" of some kind...

You do realize there are people who are only capable of pushing a broom, cleaning windows, and other menial jobs, because they can't do any truly skilled labor without constant supervision. Math is beyond them, reading and writing is elementary at best, and little to no social skills, limit them to those menial jobs.

*****SMILE*****

Enhanced skills are NEVER "beyond" anyone.. It's breaking a culture of believing academics and learning is "biased" or "too white" --- (or "yellow")... When you drop out in 10th or 11th grade, you don't KNOW what options are alternatives to "pushing a broom" and you largely DO NOT care...

For those with ACTUAL mental deficits, they MAY be required to work those jobs.. BUT -- they are a very SMALL portion of the "min skilled" labor force.. And the Downs kids working in my grocery store are THRILLED to be contributing at their highest level...

lol at '$1,300 a month' or so. Friedman's last estimate of what minimum wage should be that I remember seeing, back in the early 2000's, was around $43K per year, substantially more than the $15.6K mentioned here.

I don't consider it humane or wise to promote the SALARIES of jobs and NOT "promote the person"... Those jobs are largely endangered and are NOT CAREERS... Automation is not the killer of jobs.. Lack of knowledge and skills is... Promoting the PERSON breaks the "income gap"... Paying inflated wages for a menial, dead end job does not.

HOW LONG you want UNDERSKILLED people to have to remain in mind-numbing, low skilled jobs paying the same as semi-skilled jobs?? It's a bandaid, not anything close to a solution to "the gap"...

I actually believe that "min wage" should ONLY APPLY to people who are actively enrolled in academics, vocational training or seniors... And if you DID THAT -- MANY companies would find it cheaper and better for public relations to KICK IN subsidies to PUT their unskilled labor into "continuing education" of some kind...

You do realize there are people who are only capable of pushing a broom, cleaning windows, and other menial jobs, because they can't do any truly skilled labor without constant supervision. Math is beyond them, reading and writing is elementary at best, and little to no social skills, limit them to those menial jobs.

*****SMILE*****

Enhanced skills are NEVER "beyond" anyone.. It's breaking a culture of believing academics and learning is "biased" or "too white" --- (or "yellow")... When you drop out in 10th or 11th grade, you don't KNOW what options are alternatives to "pushing a broom" and you largely DO NOT care...

For those with ACTUAL mental deficits, they MAY be required to work those jobs.. BUT -- they are a very SMALL portion of the "min skilled" labor force.. And the Downs kids working in my grocery store are THRILLED to be contributing at their highest level...

You do realize I never gave you a number or percentage. Yes there are those with mental deficits. However there are more than a few incapable of managing their own lives that are on no program like those with mental deficits. Just look at the number of homeless in California.

Then there are the one's who burn out their brains in high school with bad meth and test out with an IQ around 70 who think they deserve a desk job. When they can't even do basic math, spell, read a tape measure, etc, etc, etc,...

*****SMILE*****

 

[flacaltenn]

View attachment 313236

You cannot draw an analogy between interactions between individuals vrs citizens to government taxation.

Governments have rights of sovereignty, and domain while individuals do not.

For individuals it's about UNalienable rights and Liberties.. The fact that you voluntarily CEDE a bit of that to govt does NOT damage your personal sovereignty... Ask all those mental patients that the courts RULED were committed without their approvals or by unconstitutional processes for example...

 

[Damaged Eagle]

WHY are you comparing the fast food labor to gulags and slave labor? WHY are you determined to make them comfortable in endangered dead end jobs for the rest of their lives? HOW does that "relieve poverty" or "the gap"????

I could take a busload of kids at a burger joint and coach and train them to have REAL careers.. They are not DUMB... They never been motivated to learn... Because our public education system has stigmatized them with increasingly LOWERED EXPECTATIONS.. You have NO RESPECT for these young people... You're tossing money at a problem you have NO IDEA how to solve...

That only works so long as the supervisor/trainer is honest and not threatened by the idea that one of those they're supervising/training might replace them.

*****SMILE*****

Franchises and chains grow... Some of the most successful folks in the country HAD those jobs.. But the MAJORITY of "min wage" workers are and SHOULD BE transient -- and on their way to BETTER things...

I was offered several REALLY inticing jobs while working thru schooling.. One was with Hawaiian Tropic when it was in its infancy... Could have been judging bikini contests and flying a private jet instead of taking Organic Chem and Differential Equations.. I was merely selling sun tan lotion at a large beach resort while lifeguarding.. THAT's how "transient" jobs are supposed to work...

What makes you think I was talking about those jobs?

Obviously you haven't read some of my recent threads down in the Badlands.

*****SMILE*****





Read VI. Though all apply.

 

[flacaltenn]

lol at '$1,300 a month' or so. Friedman's last estimate of what minimum wage should be that I remember seeing, back in the early 2000's, was around $43K per year, substantially more than the $15.6K mentioned here.

I don't consider it humane or wise to promote the SALARIES of jobs and NOT "promote the person"... Those jobs are largely endangered and are NOT CAREERS... Automation is not the killer of jobs.. Lack of knowledge and skills is... Promoting the PERSON breaks the "income gap"... Paying inflated wages for a menial, dead end job does not.

HOW LONG you want UNDERSKILLED people to have to remain in mind-numbing, low skilled jobs paying the same as semi-skilled jobs?? It's a bandaid, not anything close to a solution to "the gap"...

I actually believe that "min wage" should ONLY APPLY to people who are actively enrolled in academics, vocational training or seniors... And if you DID THAT -- MANY companies would find it cheaper and better for public relations to KICK IN subsidies to PUT their unskilled labor into "continuing education" of some kind...

You do realize there are people who are only capable of pushing a broom, cleaning windows, and other menial jobs, because they can't do any truly skilled labor without constant supervision. Math is beyond them, reading and writing is elementary at best, and little to no social skills, limit them to those menial jobs.

*****SMILE*****

Enhanced skills are NEVER "beyond" anyone.. It's breaking a culture of believing academics and learning is "biased" or "too white" --- (or "yellow")... When you drop out in 10th or 11th grade, you don't KNOW what options are alternatives to "pushing a broom" and you largely DO NOT care...

For those with ACTUAL mental deficits, they MAY be required to work those jobs.. BUT -- they are a very SMALL portion of the "min skilled" labor force.. And the Downs kids working in my grocery store are THRILLED to be contributing at their highest level...

lol at '$1,300 a month' or so. Friedman's last estimate of what minimum wage should be that I remember seeing, back in the early 2000's, was around $43K per year, substantially more than the $15.6K mentioned here.

I don't consider it humane or wise to promote the SALARIES of jobs and NOT "promote the person"... Those jobs are largely endangered and are NOT CAREERS... Automation is not the killer of jobs.. Lack of knowledge and skills is... Promoting the PERSON breaks the "income gap"... Paying inflated wages for a menial, dead end job does not.

HOW LONG you want UNDERSKILLED people to have to remain in mind-numbing, low skilled jobs paying the same as semi-skilled jobs?? It's a bandaid, not anything close to a solution to "the gap"...

I actually believe that "min wage" should ONLY APPLY to people who are actively enrolled in academics, vocational training or seniors... And if you DID THAT -- MANY companies would find it cheaper and better for public relations to KICK IN subsidies to PUT their unskilled labor into "continuing education" of some kind...

You do realize there are people who are only capable of pushing a broom, cleaning windows, and other menial jobs, because they can't do any truly skilled labor without constant supervision. Math is beyond them, reading and writing is elementary at best, and little to no social skills, limit them to those menial jobs.

*****SMILE*****

Enhanced skills are NEVER "beyond" anyone.. It's breaking a culture of believing academics and learning is "biased" or "too white" --- (or "yellow")... When you drop out in 10th or 11th grade, you don't KNOW what options are alternatives to "pushing a broom" and you largely DO NOT care...

For those with ACTUAL mental deficits, they MAY be required to work those jobs.. BUT -- they are a very SMALL portion of the "min skilled" labor force.. And the Downs kids working in my grocery store are THRILLED to be contributing at their highest level...

You do realize I never gave you a number or percentage. Yes there are those with mental deficits. However there are more than a few incapable of managing their own lives that are on no program like those with mental deficits. Just look at the number of homeless in California.

Then there are the one's who burn out their brains in high school with bad meth and test out with an IQ around 70 who think they deserve a desk job. When they can't even do basic math, spell, read a tape measure, etc, etc, etc,...

*****SMILE*****

Haven't seen any articles or papers on triaging who the homeless are... Probably would be an excellent thing to do.. And it would vary by region.. In Cali for instance a significant percentage are recent immigrants of some kind or other..

But all of these you mentioned are not even IN a min wage situation.. Some should be.. Others never. But regardless, assuring them a living wage is not likely to get even the majority of them off the streets.. They have other fundamental issues that vary all over the map...

 

[Picaro]

A lot of dissembling that of course avoids the issue of merely adjusting minimum wage for real inflation, based on the premise that it would make the floor on wages here higher than the wages in Third World totalitarian police states where the factories look like prison block houses, complete with walls topped with barbed wire to keep the 'contract employees from escaping.

What is this? DO YOU think it's humane and wise to INFLATE the wage of the menial dead end job -- RATHER THAN --- inflate the POTENTIAL of that person and REALLY attack poverty and "the gap" at it's roots?????
\

lol so poof, suddenly everybody now has a PhD; now what? You think there are jobs for 334 million doctorates?

Reducto ad DumDum... A tool chest of skills does not EVEN IMPLY a graduate degree.. It DOES include MORE than a GED... It requires finding things that light FIRES of inspiration for learning under someone.. It's like medical treatment that's targeted to specific DNA... Maybe that fire is becoming a sound editor,

....so you know your point was ludicrous, and most jobs have nothing to do with high levels of traiing and education, yes, I already said that.

I think you're purposely not caring about the people who are doomed from lack of intellectual curiosity and interest in learning....

lol that's was your dissembling attempt at avoiding answering my points, I never brought that up, so I think you're purposely not able to refute the facts that few jobs being created require anything beyond 4th grade educations.

 

[Picaro]

But all of these you mentioned are not even IN a min wage situation.. Some should be.. Others never...

Of course they aren't, because minimum wage has lagged way behind inflation. This is ridiculous 'logic'. A lot of skilled labor is paying sub-minimum wage adjusted for inflation now. The most conservative estimates put it at around $16-$17 an hour; those of us who are gold bugs, like Friedman when he felt like it, put it at around $26-$30 an hour. You keep hoping to link 'minimum wage' with the mentally deficient', but it doesn't work.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Haven't seen any articles or papers on triaging who the homeless are... Probably would be an excellent thing to do.. And it would vary by region.. In Cali for instance a significant percentage are recent immigrants of some kind or other..

But all of these you mentioned are not even IN a min wage situation.. Some should be.. Others never. But regardless, assuring them a living wage is not likely to get even the majority of them off the streets.. They have other fundamental issues that vary all over the map...

A article I read several years ago when I was still posting on the DMR said that half the homeless at that time were veterans.

That number appears to have gone down in the last few years...

Number of homeless veterans, by state U.S. 2019 | Statista

However that all depends on how they are taking those statistics. It could very easily be much higher percentage wise because we both know how statistics work. There is of course the influx over the last decade of immigrants and people who just finally fell off the unemployment rolls because they finally gave up that would drive those percentages down.

*****SMILE*****

 

[JimBowie1958]

You don't think that Robert the Bruce would still have to answer to the people in some form without resistance?

People will follow a ruler unless they feel they no longer have anything to lose.

I think the 3rd Century is very instructive in this regard.

We have formed a Pretorian Guard, and this was, to my knowledge, their first attempt at a coup, if JFK was not the first.

Robert the Bruce would have ruled during a time of absolute monarchs, and it was no small thing to betray a king.

 

[JimBowie1958]

View attachment 313236

You cannot draw an analogy between interactions between individuals vrs citizens to government taxation.

Governments have rights of sovereignty, and domain while individuals do not.

For individuals it's about UNalienable rights and Liberties.. The fact that you voluntarily CEDE a bit of that to govt does NOT damage your personal sovereignty... Ask all those mental patients that the courts RULED were committed without their approvals or by unconstitutional processes for example...

During Martial Law and times of Declared Emergency, people lose some of their rights temporarily till the period of crisis is over.

That is simply a FACT, dude.

 

[flacaltenn]

lol that's was your dissembling attempt at avoiding answering my points, I never brought that up, so I think you're purposely not able to refute the facts that few jobs being created require anything beyond 4th grade educations

Picaro, I respect you for being open and defending your love of bigger more muscular govt and Universal Everything and having the Swamp make EVERYONE'S lives completely risk free.. You've been more reasonable in the past when I've read your stuff.. But I can not believe that last paragraph..

OF COURSE you didn't bring up the people doomed to dead end jobs because you're not TRYING to fix poverty.. You're papering it over with checks from DC... OR ELEVATING WAGES instead of people.. AYE brought it up...

And as far as that comment about "few jobs being created require anything beyond a 4th grade level" -- that's just imaginary.. And I WISH we could have a better discussion, but not with those random stinky herrings...

 

[JimBowie1958]

Whers the option to just stop welfare programs?

Are you serious?

Remove the entire social safety net?

no

 

[flacaltenn]

View attachment 313236

You cannot draw an analogy between interactions between individuals vrs citizens to government taxation.

Governments have rights of sovereignty, and domain while individuals do not.

For individuals it's about UNalienable rights and Liberties.. The fact that you voluntarily CEDE a bit of that to govt does NOT damage your personal sovereignty... Ask all those mental patients that the courts RULED were committed without their approvals or by unconstitutional processes for example...

During Martial Law and times of Declared Emergency, people lose some of their rights temporarily till the period of crisis is over.

That is simply a FACT, dude.

Well YEAH... Of course.. If the Jihadis brought in a bio-weapon, what are my options? Now realize that govt ALWAYS takes more in times of crisis.. Real or Imagined.. Out of your social liberties or out of your wallet.. Depending on how COMPETENT they are at actually mitigating a crisis, i might support them...

But it's getting to the point where many of these emergency actions are not useful and the Govt looks more like the tribal witch doctor in making the natives PERCEIVE they fixed anything...