3rd party voters - Who are you going to vote for this cycle?

[FA_Q2]

This is not for the partisans or the people here that typically vote for one of the two parties. We know who you are voting for and why already. What I am interested in is those of you that rarely if ever vote for one of the major parties and instead vote for a third party. I am usually one of those people, it is rare that I vote for a major party, particularly for the top of the ticket.

I imagine many of the reasons that I vote third party are the same for most of us, mainly that the major parties do not actually represent anything I believe in. Trump presents us with a different problem this time because the republicans have fallen fully behind him. What he represents; massive government power solely consolidated within the executive branch and the utter disconnection with reality in general is a massive problem that cannot be ignored. It is no longer a question in my mind of the 'lesser' of two evils but rather a question if we let an actual authoritarian take the top job.

I had committed to voting Biden this term when Trump flatly refused to let go of the lie that the election was stolen and the right, essentially all of them, simply replaced critical thought with whatever Trump said that day. The right has gone from a party that stood for law and order to one that rejects outright the rule of law in virtually all matters. They went from the party of small government, low taxes to a government that wants to expand the executive branch under one man to have the power to do anything and spend as much as humanly possible at every turn for no reason whatsoever. They went from the party that upheld values, tradition and institutions to one that rejects all institutions in favor of the cult of personality. I have never believed the moronic assertion that this time, this election is an existential threat that is the most important election ever. A sentiment said every time in every election. This time it is fundamentally different, I think it may actually be true in 2024.

That we have a candidate the right openly embraces that has been proven, if you examine the evidence, to have tried to literally steal an election is beyond even the wildest nightmares I thought possible here in the US at this time. That his supporters willfully ignore the reality and claim it was the democrats that stole an election shows an ignorance in the electorate that massively challenges the fundamental belief democracy has any value in the first place.

For these reasons, I need to vote for the democrat presidential candidate. Not to keep Trump from the office, he is a symptom. I have to vote for them to send a hard message to the right that this type of canidate is simply not acceptable. The lies and attacks on all institutions as a matter of course are not acceptable.

That was, unfortunately, until the point that the SCOTUS literally ruled the president is immune to all law. This is one of the worst decisions that has been levied in the court possible since its inception. Yes, this is on par with Dred Scott with implications that are extremely far reaching. With impeachment being the sole remedy and a republican legislature that will look away from anything he does making that remedy IMPOSSIBLE we are left with a president that is tough to distinguish from a king. Something the right is desperately calling for even if they are blissfully unaware of that reality. Seeing the entire republican house and senate fall in line with lies they know are false and back outright illegal actions, openly support a COTUS making the president a king means this is more than a Trump or Trump supporter problem, it is a problem with a cancerous electorate.


For these reasons, I most likely have to vote a straight democrat ticket, as disgusting as that is, who have a platform that I disagree with almost in it's entirety because the republicans need to know and need to be forced to excise this self inflicted cancer or the party itself must be burned to the fucking ground in its entirety, spreading the ashes of it to the four corners of the earth.

I don't see a way around this. The recent COTUS decision really cannot be undone.

We have to remember, The Nazi Party was voted into power. Hamas was voted into power. Putin initially gained power legally and with the vote. It is not uncommon for authoritarian regimes to be voted into power before they become actual authoritarians.


dblack
In the last thread where this came up you seemed to feel at least somewhat the same and willing to vote for the left but specifically mentioned Harris as unacceptable. I admit I have not looked hard at Harris because the VP is entirely irrelevant, they mean less than nothing beyond messaging IMHO. Her senate voting record is atrocious however but even that, in all its leftist glory does not overcome the rights factual attacks on power itself. What makes you think she is on par with the opposition?

 

[JGalt]

Bitching about Trump being an "authoritarian" and comparing him the Nazis, Hamas, and Putin, while your beloved party just cancelled out 14 million of your primary election votes and installed someone who didn't get one single vote in the primaries?

The irony here is delicious. Enjoy your shit sandwich, bro.

 

[rampart]

This is not for the partisans or the people here that typically vote for one of the two parties. We know who you are voting for and why already. What I am interested in is those of you that rarely if ever vote for one of the major parties and instead vote for a third party. I am usually one of those people, it is rare that I vote for a major party, particularly for the top of the ticket.

I imagine many of the reasons that I vote third party are the same for most of us, mainly that the major parties do not actually represent anything I believe in. Trump presents us with a different problem this time because the republicans have fallen fully behind him. What he represents; massive government power solely consolidated within the executive branch and the utter disconnection with reality in general is a massive problem that cannot be ignored. It is no longer a question in my mind of the 'lesser' of two evils but rather a question if we let an actual authoritarian take the top job.

I had committed to voting Biden this term when Trump flatly refused to let go of the lie that the election was stolen and the right, essentially all of them, simply replaced critical thought with whatever Trump said that day. The right has gone from a party that stood for law and order to one that rejects outright the rule of law in virtually all matters. They went from the party of small government, low taxes to a government that wants to expand the executive branch under one man to have the power to do anything and spend as much as humanly possible at every turn for no reason whatsoever. They went from the party that upheld values, tradition and institutions to one that rejects all institutions in favor of the cult of personality. I have never believed the moronic assertion that this time, this election is an existential threat that is the most important election ever. A sentiment said every time in every election. This time it is fundamentally different, I think it may actually be true in 2024.

That we have a candidate the right openly embraces that has been proven, if you examine the evidence, to have tried to literally steal an election is beyond even the wildest nightmares I thought possible here in the US at this time. That his supporters willfully ignore the reality and claim it was the democrats that stole an election shows an ignorance in the electorate that massively challenges the fundamental belief democracy has any value in the first place.

For these reasons, I need to vote for the democrat presidential candidate. Not to keep Trump from the office, he is a symptom. I have to vote for them to send a hard message to the right that this type of canidate is simply not acceptable. The lies and attacks on all institutions as a matter of course are not acceptable.

That was, unfortunately, until the point that the SCOTUS literally ruled the president is immune to all law. This is one of the worst decisions that has been levied in the court possible since its inception. Yes, this is on par with Dred Scott with implications that are extremely far reaching. With impeachment being the sole remedy and a republican legislature that will look away from anything he does making that remedy IMPOSSIBLE we are left with a president that is tough to distinguish from a king. Something the right is desperately calling for even if they are blissfully unaware of that reality. Seeing the entire republican house and senate fall in line with lies they know are false and back outright illegal actions, openly support a COTUS making the president a king means this is more than a Trump or Trump supporter problem, it is a problem with a cancerous electorate.


For these reasons, I most likely have to vote a straight democrat ticket, as disgusting as that is, who have a platform that I disagree with almost in it's entirety because the republicans need to know and need to be forced to excise this self inflicted cancer or the party itself must be burned to the fucking ground in its entirety, spreading the ashes of it to the four corners of the earth.

I don't see a way around this. The recent COTUS decision really cannot be undone.

We have to remember, The Nazi Party was voted into power. Hamas was voted into power. Putin initially gained power legally and with the vote. It is not uncommon for authoritarian regimes to be voted into power before they become actual authoritarians.


dblack
In the last thread where this came up you seemed to feel at least somewhat the same and willing to vote for the left but specifically mentioned Harris as unacceptable. I admit I have not looked hard at Harris because the VP is entirely irrelevant, they mean less than nothing beyond messaging IMHO. Her senate voting record is atrocious however but even that, in all its leftist glory does not overcome the rights factual attacks on power itself. What makes you think she is on par with the opposition?

voted for nader twice and stein twice. i'd do it again if the defeat of trump and his minions were not required.

i talk to many of we old "jack pine radicals" who rejected ms clinton in favor of bernie - rejection of trump and trumpism is priority 1. we can go back to squabbling when that job is done.

 

[FA_Q2]

Bitching about Trump being an "authoritarian" and comparing him the Nazis, Hamas, and Putin, while your beloved party just cancelled out 14 million of your primary election votes and installed someone who didn't get one single vote in the primaries?

The irony here is delicious. Enjoy your shit sandwich, bro.

Partisan hacks don't belong in this thread. Guess you cant read. Not surprising for a trumpster.

 

[FA_Q2]

voted for nader twice and stein twice. i'd do it again if the defeat of trump and his minions were not required.

i talk to many of we old "jack pine radicals" who rejected ms clinton in favor of bernie - rejection of trump and trumpism is priority 1. we can go back to squabbling when that job is done.

This seems to be where I am at but Trump is not the problem, he is the symptom. The entire republican party has been infected as evidenced by the sycophantism that the legislators and judges have for Trump. A sycophantism that the republican voters are outright demanding.

 

[Independent thinker]

This is not for the partisans or the people here that typically vote for one of the two parties. We know who you are voting for and why already. What I am interested in is those of you that rarely if ever vote for one of the major parties and instead vote for a third party. I am usually one of those people, it is rare that I vote for a major party, particularly for the top of the ticket.

I imagine many of the reasons that I vote third party are the same for most of us, mainly that the major parties do not actually represent anything I believe in. Trump presents us with a different problem this time because the republicans have fallen fully behind him. What he represents; massive government power solely consolidated within the executive branch and the utter disconnection with reality in general is a massive problem that cannot be ignored. It is no longer a question in my mind of the 'lesser' of two evils but rather a question if we let an actual authoritarian take the top job.

I had committed to voting Biden this term when Trump flatly refused to let go of the lie that the election was stolen and the right, essentially all of them, simply replaced critical thought with whatever Trump said that day. The right has gone from a party that stood for law and order to one that rejects outright the rule of law in virtually all matters. They went from the party of small government, low taxes to a government that wants to expand the executive branch under one man to have the power to do anything and spend as much as humanly possible at every turn for no reason whatsoever. They went from the party that upheld values, tradition and institutions to one that rejects all institutions in favor of the cult of personality. I have never believed the moronic assertion that this time, this election is an existential threat that is the most important election ever. A sentiment said every time in every election. This time it is fundamentally different, I think it may actually be true in 2024.

That we have a candidate the right openly embraces that has been proven, if you examine the evidence, to have tried to literally steal an election is beyond even the wildest nightmares I thought possible here in the US at this time. That his supporters willfully ignore the reality and claim it was the democrats that stole an election shows an ignorance in the electorate that massively challenges the fundamental belief democracy has any value in the first place.

For these reasons, I need to vote for the democrat presidential candidate. Not to keep Trump from the office, he is a symptom. I have to vote for them to send a hard message to the right that this type of canidate is simply not acceptable. The lies and attacks on all institutions as a matter of course are not acceptable.

That was, unfortunately, until the point that the SCOTUS literally ruled the president is immune to all law. This is one of the worst decisions that has been levied in the court possible since its inception. Yes, this is on par with Dred Scott with implications that are extremely far reaching. With impeachment being the sole remedy and a republican legislature that will look away from anything he does making that remedy IMPOSSIBLE we are left with a president that is tough to distinguish from a king. Something the right is desperately calling for even if they are blissfully unaware of that reality. Seeing the entire republican house and senate fall in line with lies they know are false and back outright illegal actions, openly support a COTUS making the president a king means this is more than a Trump or Trump supporter problem, it is a problem with a cancerous electorate.


For these reasons, I most likely have to vote a straight democrat ticket, as disgusting as that is, who have a platform that I disagree with almost in it's entirety because the republicans need to know and need to be forced to excise this self inflicted cancer or the party itself must be burned to the fucking ground in its entirety, spreading the ashes of it to the four corners of the earth.

I don't see a way around this. The recent COTUS decision really cannot be undone.

We have to remember, The Nazi Party was voted into power. Hamas was voted into power. Putin initially gained power legally and with the vote. It is not uncommon for authoritarian regimes to be voted into power before they become actual authoritarians.


dblack
In the last thread where this came up you seemed to feel at least somewhat the same and willing to vote for the left but specifically mentioned Harris as unacceptable. I admit I have not looked hard at Harris because the VP is entirely irrelevant, they mean less than nothing beyond messaging IMHO. Her senate voting record is atrocious however but even that, in all its leftist glory does not overcome the rights factual attacks on power itself. What makes you think she is on par with the opposition?

While anyone can claim that both the Republican and Democratic nominees are losers, the 3rd party candidates are losers too. That's why few vote for them. The most popular one today has worms in his brain and has admittedly assaulted many women, earning him about 6% of the vote. The Libertarian candidate said he would be happy to get 2% of the vote.

 

[braalian]

Might as well save a trip and not vote at all

 

[JWBooth]

I doesn't much matter.
In my community, my state, Trump is gonna have all of the EC votes.
I can stay home, go fishing, write in Ron Paul, not gonna affect the outcome.
Military contractors, Likud, the banks, those who suckle at the govt. teat are ever always the only winners.

 

[FA_Q2]

I doesn't much matter.
In my community, my state, Trump is gonna have all of the EC votes.
I can stay home, go fishing, write in Ron Paul, not gonna affect the outcome.
Military contractors, Likud, the banks, those who suckle at the govt. teat are ever always the only winners.

Then you do not understand voting.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

3rd party voters - Who are you going to vote for this cycle?​

Chase Oliver

 

[JWBooth]

What's to understand?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Then you do not understand voting.

It seems it is you that does not understand our election system

 

[JWBooth]

Chase Oliver

To what end? His very presence alienates half of those who would normally vote libertarian. Is their outlook rational? Prolly not, but it doesn't change anything.
The only reason to do so IMH is to try to salvage ballot access.

 

[Mrkelly]

Jimmy Dore in 24

 

[Harpy Eagle]

To what end? His very presence alienates half of those who would normally vote libertarian. Is their outlook rational? Prolly not, but it doesn't change anything.
The only reason to do so IMH is to try to salvage ballot access.

Because his views most closely align to mine.

 

[JWBooth]

Good enough then.

 

[FA_Q2]

It seems it is you that does not understand our election system

I do because I have a more nuanced understanding that is beyond a 2 year old's simplistic nihilism.

You think your vote is meaningless and, as long as you cling to that idiocy, it will be. For the rest of us, we realize that where we put our vote sends a message.

Sanders has won nothing on the national stage but has managed to take the entire democrat party far left. He did not do that because he garnered enough support to win national elections. He did it by getting enough of the vote that the party had better wake the fuck up or they would start losing. And they did exactly that.

The right bitches constantly about libertarian votes because when they lose elections by 2% and 3% went libertarian, they correctly see that they could have won. Why do you thin the right plays lip service to smaller government? It sure as fuck is not because the people voting for a strong man want smaller government.

 

[dblack]

Thanks for posting this! I've been kind of busy and unable to give it the consideration it deserves. I'm still not sure I really have any solid answers for you - I'm mulling it over - but I'll try to address your comments. The following is mostly ad-hoc reactions to what you've posted. I'm hoping for the opportunity to clarify my position in further discussion.

This is not for the partisans or the people here that typically vote for one of the two parties. We know who you are voting for and why already. What I am interested in is those of you that rarely if ever vote for one of the major parties and instead vote for a third party. I am usually one of those people, it is rare that I vote for a major party, particularly for the top of the ticket.

I imagine many of the reasons that I vote third party are the same for most of us, mainly that the major parties do not actually represent anything I believe in. Trump presents us with a different problem this time because the republicans have fallen fully behind him. What he represents; massive government power solely consolidated within the executive branch and the utter disconnection with reality in general is a massive problem that cannot be ignored. It is no longer a question in my mind of the 'lesser' of two evils but rather a question if we let an actual authoritarian take the top job.

I had committed to voting Biden this term when Trump flatly refused to let go of the lie that the election was stolen and the right, essentially all of them, simply replaced critical thought with whatever Trump said that day. The right has gone from a party that stood for law and order to one that rejects outright the rule of law in virtually all matters. They went from the party of small government, low taxes to a government that wants to expand the executive branch under one man to have the power to do anything and spend as much as humanly possible at every turn for no reason whatsoever. They went from the party that upheld values, tradition and institutions to one that rejects all institutions in favor of the cult of personality. I have never believed the moronic assertion that this time, this election is an existential threat that is the most important election ever. A sentiment said every time in every election. This time it is fundamentally different, I think it may actually be true in 2024.

If this is true, then it leaves me wondering if voting matters much at all. If it's true that half our country is ready to get behind fascism, maybe the only winning move is to get the hell out. Even if Democrats eek out a win, MAGA won't accept it, and will be fuming in their anger and frustration, ready to burn it all down if they can't get their way.

That we have a candidate the right openly embraces that has been proven, if you examine the evidence, to have tried to literally steal an election is beyond even the wildest nightmares I thought possible here in the US at this time. That his supporters willfully ignore the reality and claim it was the democrats that stole an election shows an ignorance in the electorate that massively challenges the fundamental belief democracy has any value in the first place.

For these reasons, I need to vote for the democrat presidential candidate. Not to keep Trump from the office, he is a symptom. I have to vote for them to send a hard message to the right that this type of canidate is simply not acceptable. The lies and attacks on all institutions as a matter of course are not acceptable.

The problem here is that your "message" won't carry. No one will hear it. The only thing recorded when you vote for a Democrat candidate is support for Democrats and what they're doing. This notion that we can meaningfully vote "against" something in our system is fiction. We can't. And it's the biggest flaw in the way we do democracy.

That was, unfortunately, until the point that the SCOTUS literally ruled the president is immune to all law. This is one of the worst decisions that has been levied in the court possible since its inception. Yes, this is on par with Dred Scott with implications that are extremely far reaching. With impeachment being the sole remedy and a republican legislature that will look away from anything he does making that remedy IMPOSSIBLE we are left with a president that is tough to distinguish from a king. Something the right is desperately calling for even if they are blissfully unaware of that reality. Seeing the entire republican house and senate fall in line with lies they know are false and back outright illegal actions, openly support a COTUS making the president a king means this is more than a Trump or Trump supporter problem, it is a problem with a cancerous electorate.


For these reasons, I most likely have to vote a straight democrat ticket, as disgusting as that is, who have a platform that I disagree with almost in it's entirety because the republicans need to know and need to be forced to excise this self inflicted cancer or the party itself must be burned to the fucking ground in its entirety, spreading the ashes of it to the four corners of the earth.

I don't see a way around this. The recent COTUS decision really cannot be undone.

We have to remember, The Nazi Party was voted into power. Hamas was voted into power. Putin initially gained power legally and with the vote. It is not uncommon for authoritarian regimes to be voted into power before they become actual authoritarians.

Indeed. Democracy won't save us from fascism. This is a key delusion held by Democrats. They seem to have an almost religious faith in the virtue of majority rule. But when the majority breaks bad, all bets are off.

dblack
In the last thread where this came up you seemed to feel at least somewhat the same and willing to vote for the left but specifically mentioned Harris as unacceptable. I admit I have not looked hard at Harris because the VP is entirely irrelevant, they mean less than nothing beyond messaging IMHO. Her senate voting record is atrocious however but even that, in all its leftist glory does not overcome the rights factual attacks on power itself. What makes you think she is on par with the opposition.

I'll be listening closely to how she campaigns. If she makes any attempt at unifying the electorate, if she makes a real effort to address the legitimate concerns of the right - and there are many - I'll consider voting for her. But I'm not yet seeing it yet. So far it's the usual partisan fear mongering.

******

Plurality voting doesn't work. It creates artificial division and fuels the us vs. them mentality that currently has us enthralled in a death spiral. The only way out that I can see is a real push for consensus government. At this point, ideological druthers are moot. We have to find leaders who are committed to representing everyone, and not just their base. Both Trump and Harris have given lip service to this goal, but neither has put anything genuine on the table.

It's hard for me not to blame Democrats for the whole mess. They were instrumental in creating Trump, and the populist anger that fuels his movement. Their fixation on using government to "transform" society is the driving force behind the culture war. They see anyone who questions their agenda as racists and bigots. And rather than try to include doubters in the discussion, they simply shame them and declare them to be "the enemy". That's NOT how you create consensus. It's how you drive us into a civil war.

As promised, this was just a bunch of ad-hoc reactions. I had some fleeting hope that Dems would use Biden's withdrawal to nominate a moderate candidate who could get genuine consensus support. It wouldn't take much. Harris doesn't seem like that candidate.

 

[dblack]

Ranked choice voting is the way out of this. Fortunately, it's taking off - at the local level, where sanity has a fighting chance. But it may be too little too late.

 

[FA_Q2]

Thanks for posting this! I've been kind of busy and unable to give it the consideration it deserves. I'm still not sure I really have any solid answers for you - I'm mulling it over - but I'll try to address your comments. The following is mostly ad-hoc reactions to what you've posted. I'm hoping for the opportunity to clarify my position in further discussion.

If this is true, then it leaves me wondering if voting matters much at all. If it's true that half our country is ready to get behind fascism, maybe the only winning move is to get the hell out. Even if Democrats eek out a win, MAGA won't accept it, and will be fuming in their anger and frustration, ready to burn it all down if they can't get their way.

It has made me think something similar. Voting only matters so far as the voting populace is willing to make it matter and it seems that the current crop of voters is utterly ignorant about everything they are voting on. I am, unfortunately, stuck in the here and now though so I do not know how endemic this is to voting itself. Has this always been the case? I do not know and I do not think history can be known with enough specificity to shed any light on this. We can easily discover what happened, we connot so easily place ourselves within the minds of the people at the time.

Perhaps this is just a massive expansion of the Dunning Kruger effect. We live in a society that has access to virtually any and all information that it can have access to within seconds of deciding we want that info. We cannot, however, fit all that information into our heads or absorb enough to be competent enough to make the decisions that we must now be a part of. That leads to many of the problems we see now. I can very easily paint a narrative that shows why we should support Ukraine's efforts to retain sovereignty but I can also easily paint a narrative to support Russian aggression in the area. It takes deeper knowledge to understand why one position is superior to the other, deeper knowledge that almost no one bothers to understand for good reason. We don't all have time to devote to investigating these things.

However, voting seems to be the best we have at the moment. I cant think of a better option so we are stuck with it. I do think that is the core superiority of a republic over a democracy though, at least we are voting for people that are supposed to know better. Perhaps our problem is there. It is not as though this is an American problem, this issues is all over the planet and all over history in the last 100 years. The increasing complexity of the world may require a different type of representative rather than just straight legislators and executors.

The problem here is that your "message" won't carry. No one will hear it. The only thing recorded when you vote for a Democrat candidate is support for Democrats and what they're doing. This notion that we can meaningfully vote "against" something in our system is fiction. We can't. And it's the biggest flaw in the way we do democracy.

I think you are very incorrect here in a demonstrable and objective way. The simplest way to show this is just to show how politicians react to polls and election outcomes. The republican party right now does not exist in the state it is in because that is what they want let alone the greater political machine. They are this way because enough of the voters have sent the message that this is what they want. Any and all politicians that cross Trump get almost instantly destroyed in the party. Romney went from the guy they wanted to run the party to a complete nothing virtually overnight because he did not support overthrowing the king. Virtually no one in they party actually supports Trump of his platform, if one could even call what he runs on a platform. They are on board because they cannot win otherwise.

You are correct that my message may be received as 'support' for the dems rather than against Trump but I am supporting the democrats. It is just fleeting support because Trump represents that much of a problem. My message only appears to be missed because I am one out of 150 million voters giving me a small voice. That is not only to be expected but is also a very good thing. When there are enough of me, when there are so many people that reject Trump combined with supporters of democrats the right will be forced into adjusting the platform.

Correct, Tumpsters will not go anywhere. The point is not to get rid of them. The point is to make them politically irrelevant. Should Trump and the right lose this election, that is exactly what will happen and my message will have been received. The right will be forced to capitulate or remain irrelevant until they do.

While I do not want to see the democrats have complete control (or at least want to see complete control minimized), that will end in either the Republican party getting back to reality or being replaced entirely. I do not know enough about the history at the time to make a direct comparison or know of the parallels but it seems that most people have forgotten this is not the first time something like this has happened. The Wig party was destroyed and replaced by the republicans, it may have to happen again.

Indeed. Democracy won't save us from fascism. This is a key delusion held by Democrats. They seem to have an almost religious faith in the virtue of majority rule. But when the majority breaks bad, all bets are off.

The left does not care about majority rule at all. Almost no one does. They care about voting if and only if it supports what they want. Most measures democrats support are actually counter to majority rule, the entire concept of woke is absolutely anti-majority.

Democracy really is not a 'good' thing. Democracy is a tool and should be seen as such. It has its place and it has places it does not belong. Appointed positions, something almost no one is wholly against, shows that we do not value democracy inherently but only in specific instances.

I did mention it as a core value earlier but I should have flushed that out more.

I'll be listening closely to how she campaigns. If she makes any attempt at unifying the electorate, if she makes a real effort to address the legitimate concerns of the right - and there are many - I'll consider voting for her. But I'm not yet seeing it yet. So far it's the usual partisan fear mongering.

I am almost certain that this is what she will do but this is what any democrat would do in the current climate. I would expect them to because Trump has given them an unbelievable opportunity. There are almost no boundaries for what they can push for that will make them look extremes when compared to trying to overthrow the government. Demanding more is like asking an entire political movement, which is much more self interested than even a single individual, to act as an pure and perfect angel.

I would assert that asking Harris to act this way is shooting yourself in the foot. I will support this particular candidate only if they act in a manner that we can guarantee they will not because it is absolutely against their interests to do so is equivalent to not supporting them under any circumstances.

Maybe that is to close to the 'lesser of two evils' that I think we both are against. My motivation, however, is disconnected with the candidates entirely. I question what happens to the right as a whole if the authoritarians within the party are vindicated. The only answer I have there is that they will, as it is in their interests now, be much more authoritarian. To get more authoritarian than they are now is to simply be an outright dictator.

Putin is likely the best allegory here. That might happen here. I am reminded of a some fantastic lines in a series of terrible movies:

Plurality voting doesn't work. It creates artificial division and fuels the us vs. them mentality that currently has us enthralled in a death spiral. The only way out that I can see is a real push for consensus government. At this point, ideological druthers are moot. We have to find leaders who are committed to representing everyone, and not just their base. Both Trump and Harris have given lip service to this goal, but neither has put anything genuine on the table.

Again, I think you are incorrect here. Brittan has almost the exact same problem we do, just not the strongman at the head, and they exist in a parliamentary system. Pre-war Germany was a parliamentary system iirc, and that did not stop the takeover of the Nazi party. Russia today has, I believe, 5 or 6 major parties.

The world says your assertion here is incorrect. Plurality voting seems to have nothing to do with authoritarian takeovers of the system. Indeed, it actually is a huge buffer against more extremes elements because they cannot form significant blocks within the government without major support. It is just a fact that politicians will use an us vs them message to garner support, the number of 'thems' is not really relevant. Just that it is a them.

Case in point, the big bugaboos of the right really are not democrats, they are foreigners. So much so they will lie about border policy when it suits them and label it as 'democrat.' The big bugaboos of the left are racism and sexism which they will label as republican even if it has nothing to do with them. And both parties play into the narrative both for them and even the narrative applied to them from the other side.

the problem is not pluralities, the problem is that we have a large section of voters that do not care about truth. If there were more parties, that section would just have more power.

How do you square your assertion with the realities in other nations that specifically lack a 2 party structure?

It's hard for me not to blame Democrats for the whole mess. They were instrumental in creating Trump, and the populist anger that fuels his movement. Their fixation on using government to "transform" society is the driving force behind the culture war. They see anyone who questions their agenda as racists and bigots. And rather than try to include doubters in the discussion, they simply shame them and declare them to be "the enemy". That's NOT how you create consensus. It's how you drive us into a civil war.

I do not disagree here at all.

However, I also think that we are here. The question is not who got us into this mess or even how do we get out. Like a 12 step program, the question is which tiny, minute step we can take to stop running off the cliff full tilt. The SCOTUS decision has shaken my faith in the institutions to keep us from going the way of other authoritarian nations to its very core. We need to take a step back from that before we can even address the greater problem.

But I could be overacting here. There just has been no one to show me evidence that I am. I hope you can, I do not like where I am at politically atm.

As promised, this was just a bunch of ad-hoc reactions. I had some fleeting hope that Dems would use Biden's withdrawal to nominate a moderate candidate who could get genuine consensus support. It wouldn't take much. Harris doesn't seem like that candidate.

Sorry for the late reply, life and such. I hope you will have some time to expand on what I am asserting some more.