3rd party voters - Who are you going to vote for this cycle?

[FA_Q2]

Because his views most closely align to mine.

A good enough reason to vote for them.

A question still remains though, do you think Harris or Trump are, essentially, the same as far as moving the nation away from those values you adhere to?

 

[FA_Q2]

Ranked choice voting is the way out of this. Fortunately, it's taking off - at the local level, where sanity has a fighting chance. But it may be too little too late.

Ranked choice voting is an improvement, one I am fully behind and then some, but I do not think it is a solution. There is more to this than can fit on a postcard otherwise it would not be a problem that is so endemic across the planet.

I think we are a little to America centric when trying to diagnose these problems. If it were that simple it would be only us.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

A good enough reason to vote for them.

A question still remains though, do you think Harris or Trump are, essentially, the same as far as moving the nation away from those values you adhere to?

Yep, I do think they are essentially, the same as far as moving the nation away from those values I adhere to

 

[FA_Q2]

Yep, I do think they are essentially, the same as far as moving the nation away from those values I adhere to

This is where I normally fall with the presidential election. I fully understand the sentiment but just disagree on this particular example. Thanks for answering.

 

[Anathema]

Sans as I did in 2020 - I’ll write in my own name.

 

[dblack]

It still seems like drinking to cure a hangover. Falling for the lesser of two evils scam is what got us into this mess. Do we really think it will get us out of it?

Democrat Barker: "Socialism for sale, socialism for sale! Who wants some socialism?!"
Me: "No thanks. I don't want more socialism"
Democrat Barker: "Oh, c'mon. You just don't understand socialism."
Me: "No, I understand socialism. I don't want that for my country."

Republican Barker: "Get your fascism, right here folks! Don't let those Dems fool you!"
Me: "Fuck"

Democrat Barker: "Sooo..... you DO want some socialism!"
Me: "Fuck you"

 

[dblack]

Ranked choice voting is an improvement, one I am fully behind and then some, but I do not think it is a solution.

Not yet. I think it would have prevented us from getting to where we are now, and can prevent it in the future, but for now we're mired in the two-party endgame.

I think we are a little to America centric when trying to diagnose these problems. If it were that simple it would be only us.

Almost certainly. I've been trying to track and absorb the fact that fascism is rearing its ugly head again all around the globe, not just here. I guess shit comes in waves.

 

[FA_Q2]

It still seems like drinking to cure a hangover. Falling for the lesser of two evils scam is what got us into this mess. Do we really think it will get us out of it?

Democrat Barker: "Socialism for sale, socialism for sale! Who wants some socialism?!"
Me: "No thanks. I don't want more socialism"
Democrat Barker: "Oh, c'mon. You just don't understand socialism."
Me: "No, I understand socialism. I don't want that for my country."

Republican Barker: "Get your fascism, right here folks! Don't let those Dems fool you!"
Me: "Fuck"

Democrat Barker: "Sooo..... you DO want some socialism!"
Me: "Fuck you"

It is.

But that is just the initial diagnosis. We need more than 2 dimensional thinking here, that is exactly the level of analysis that the partisans take, they do not look past the surface.

As an allegory, a tunicate has the potential to force an amputation, though the risk is exaggerated, but that does not mean it is not a key tool in saving lives. If you get a bad laceration, sure, we are not going to even contemplate applying a tunicate because a standard field dressing is going to work just fine. If that laceration hits a major artery then we will not even try a dressing, we are going to apply the tunicate immediately. Yes, losing that limb is bad but the other option here is swift death. This is a clear example of choosing the 'lesser of 2 evils' because we have gone past the point where good solutions are applicable. Ignoring the bad ones is insane in this situation - it is also insane politically when we hit that precipice.

All that is necessary for evil to win is for good people to do nothing.

And your example here is also not applicable. No matter what the rhetoric is, socialism is not on the table right now. That is just where we are at. If you convince me that it is, then I would be there with you. That is the other precipice that we cannot walk off of. Fascism is, however, on the table. Convince me it is not and, again, my position crumbles and I would agree with you. My OP outlined exactly why I think it is on the table, the institutions that kept Trump from destroying the system are falling RIGHT NOW. We see that with the fall of the court and how that decision directly impacts what Trump can do with his cabinet. It is a direct and real threat to the independence of those institutions. And I will point out you have not refuted any of that because I think you agree here. Trump is pretty damn bad.

Not yet. I think it would have prevented us from getting to where we are now, and can prevent it in the future, but for now we're mired in the two-party endgame.

Almost certainly. I've been trying to track and absorb the fact that fascism is rearing its ugly head again all around the globe, not just here. I guess shit comes in waves.

It does because we are all experiencing the same problems due to the current integration the world enjoys. However, as I said earlier, you are just simply incorrect in assuming that it would have prevented this in any shape or form. If it would, the UK would not be having this problem. If it would, Russia would not have already succumbed. If it would, the Nazi party would not have taken power. All of these political systems existed in a plurality system. Granted, they did not have RCV but they did have what you want, a multitude of options and those options were real, they actually elected third, fourth and fifth parties into the parliaments and still ended up where we are.

You cannot assert it would fix it if you do not address why those situations would not simply be the same here.

 

[FA_Q2]

Sans as I did in 2020 - I’ll write in my own name.

That makes no sense...

You are an open authoritarian, you should be voting for Trump. How is he not a move in the direction you want?

 

[Oddball]

Ranked choice voting is an improvement, one I am fully behind and then some, but I do not think it is a solution. There is more to this than can fit on a postcard otherwise it would not be a problem that is so endemic across the planet.

I think we are a little to America centric when trying to diagnose these problems. If it were that simple it would be only us.

Rigged choice voting is a total scam, meant to keep the left in power.....The results speak for themselves.

 

[Anathema]

That makes no sense...

You are an open authoritarian, you should be voting for Trump. How is he not a move in the direction you want?

I don’t want the lesser evil. Trump is less evil than I am. Therefore I’d rather vote for myself than him.

I live in a Deep Blue state so my vote doesn’t matter anyway.

 

[dblack]

It is.

But that is just the initial diagnosis. We need more than 2 dimensional thinking here, that is exactly the level of analysis that the partisans take, they do not look past the surface.

As an allegory, a tunicate has the potential to force an amputation, though the risk is exaggerated, but that does not mean it is not a key tool in saving lives. If you get a bad laceration, sure, we are not going to even contemplate applying a tunicate because a standard field dressing is going to work just fine. If that laceration hits a major artery then we will not even try a dressing, we are going to apply the tunicate immediately. Yes, losing that limb is bad but the other option here is swift death. This is a clear example of choosing the 'lesser of 2 evils' because we have gone past the point where good solutions are applicable. Ignoring the bad ones is insane in this situation - it is also insane politically when we hit that precipice.

All that is necessary for evil to win is for good people to do nothing.

This is the same argument we hear every cycle. Each time is worse than the last, and each time we fall for it. And the next cycle we're facing an even worse "choice".

And your example here is also not applicable. No matter what the rhetoric is, socialism is not on the table right now.

The point of my little dialog was merely to highlight a frustrating fact: A vote for Democrats, regardless of any claim that it's actually a vote against Republicans, will be eagerly interpreted as support for their agenda. Nothing else will be noted.

It does because we are all experiencing the same problems due to the current integration the world enjoys. However, as I said earlier, you are just simply incorrect in assuming that it would have prevented this in any shape or form. If it would, the UK would not be having this problem. If it would, Russia would not have already succumbed. If it would, the Nazi party would not have taken power. All of these political systems existed in a plurality system. Granted, they did not have RCV but they did have what you want, a multitude of options and those options were real, they actually elected third, fourth and fifth parties into the parliaments and still ended up where we are.

It seems you're misconstruing my enthusiasm for RCV. The point isn't to have multiple viable parties. I'll admit that's what got me interested in it initially, but it's a side effect at best. The real win of RCV is that it pushes us toward consensus leadership and prevents radical candidates from being elected with less than majority support.

You cannot assert it would fix it if you do not address why those situations would not simply be the same here.

Hitler never got more than 37% of the vote. Yet he was legally elected. That's only possible with plurality voting. That can't happen with RCV. At the end of the day, with RCV, a candidate must have the support of half the voters or they will lose. As radical as Hitler was, it's safe to assume that most of the 63% percent who didn't vote for him would have ranked him last under RCV, and if 50% of the voters rank a candidate last, they can't win.

RCV means you CAN actually vote against a candidate. Not by supporting a lesser evil, but as a real, meaningful vote that will help prevent them from getting elected. For example, by ranking him last, you can cast a vote that says "anybody but Trump". You can't do that with plurality voting.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

This is not for the partisans or the people here that typically vote for one of the two parties. We know who you are voting for and why already. What I am interested in is those of you that rarely if ever vote for one of the major parties and instead vote for a third party. I am usually one of those people, it is rare that I vote for a major party, particularly for the top of the ticket.

I imagine many of the reasons that I vote third party are the same for most of us, mainly that the major parties do not actually represent anything I believe in. Trump presents us with a different problem this time because the republicans have fallen fully behind him. What he represents; massive government power solely consolidated within the executive branch and the utter disconnection with reality in general is a massive problem that cannot be ignored. It is no longer a question in my mind of the 'lesser' of two evils but rather a question if we let an actual authoritarian take the top job.

I had committed to voting Biden this term when Trump flatly refused to let go of the lie that the election was stolen and the right, essentially all of them, simply replaced critical thought with whatever Trump said that day. The right has gone from a party that stood for law and order to one that rejects outright the rule of law in virtually all matters. They went from the party of small government, low taxes to a government that wants to expand the executive branch under one man to have the power to do anything and spend as much as humanly possible at every turn for no reason whatsoever. They went from the party that upheld values, tradition and institutions to one that rejects all institutions in favor of the cult of personality. I have never believed the moronic assertion that this time, this election is an existential threat that is the most important election ever. A sentiment said every time in every election. This time it is fundamentally different, I think it may actually be true in 2024.

That we have a candidate the right openly embraces that has been proven, if you examine the evidence, to have tried to literally steal an election is beyond even the wildest nightmares I thought possible here in the US at this time. That his supporters willfully ignore the reality and claim it was the democrats that stole an election shows an ignorance in the electorate that massively challenges the fundamental belief democracy has any value in the first place.

For these reasons, I need to vote for the democrat presidential candidate. Not to keep Trump from the office, he is a symptom. I have to vote for them to send a hard message to the right that this type of canidate is simply not acceptable. The lies and attacks on all institutions as a matter of course are not acceptable.

That was, unfortunately, until the point that the SCOTUS literally ruled the president is immune to all law. This is one of the worst decisions that has been levied in the court possible since its inception. Yes, this is on par with Dred Scott with implications that are extremely far reaching. With impeachment being the sole remedy and a republican legislature that will look away from anything he does making that remedy IMPOSSIBLE we are left with a president that is tough to distinguish from a king. Something the right is desperately calling for even if they are blissfully unaware of that reality. Seeing the entire republican house and senate fall in line with lies they know are false and back outright illegal actions, openly support a COTUS making the president a king means this is more than a Trump or Trump supporter problem, it is a problem with a cancerous electorate.


For these reasons, I most likely have to vote a straight democrat ticket, as disgusting as that is, who have a platform that I disagree with almost in it's entirety because the republicans need to know and need to be forced to excise this self inflicted cancer or the party itself must be burned to the fucking ground in its entirety, spreading the ashes of it to the four corners of the earth.

I don't see a way around this. The recent COTUS decision really cannot be undone.

We have to remember, The Nazi Party was voted into power. Hamas was voted into power. Putin initially gained power legally and with the vote. It is not uncommon for authoritarian regimes to be voted into power before they become actual authoritarians.


dblack
In the last thread where this came up you seemed to feel at least somewhat the same and willing to vote for the left but specifically mentioned Harris as unacceptable. I admit I have not looked hard at Harris because the VP is entirely irrelevant, they mean less than nothing beyond messaging IMHO. Her senate voting record is atrocious however but even that, in all its leftist glory does not overcome the rights factual attacks on power itself. What makes you think she is on par with the opposition?

I'm voting for Trump, the greatest 3rd Party candidate