300 Union Plumbers Spent The Weekend Installing Water Filters For Flint Residents For Free

[bullwinkle]

I'm not sure why you are quoting this to me sir. I /know/ why its happening, because back in the day lead pipes were the norm for building homes in the US, we were unaware of the negative effects of lead ingestion at the time. When we as a country discovered the harmful effects, we passed laws to remove lead, from paint, gas, and pipes as well. The government has actually already taken more responsibility for this unfortunate situation than they are /technically/ required to do by law - because it was the right thing to do for the country's kids.

While I do agree that they should have notified the people that the new water was not being treated, I disagree that it is solely the responsibility of the government to fix the problem. It should be upon the home owner and rental owners to upgrade their plumbing and remove the lead pipes. I would /not/ be against renters suing the owners/managers of the apartment buildings for medical costs and suffering frankly, it's not like the lead pipe thing is a "new" development, we've know it is a problem for over 30 years now. If owners choose not to upgrade their house, or a house they are renting, then I'm afraid they bare the brunt of the responsibility here, not the gov. Though again, the gov. /should/ have notified the people that the "new" water was not being treated and that they should test their water so there is clearly a problem with the gov. knowing about the situation but saying nothing that needs to be investigated here, but it's not really the gov.'s fault that the homeowners didn't upgrade.

If we are going to say that lead pipes in a private home are the responsibility of the government, where does that stop? Should the government be inspecting every persons home to ensure that there are no weak spots in the floor, or is that part of the responsibility of the owner? If my homes gutter is pouring water down the house and eating away at the foundation, is that the governments responsibility or mine? If my septic system is too small for the home, is that the governments responsibility to fix or mine? There is a distinct line between government responsibility and home owner responsibility, the government should indeed put out information about hazards and such, but it is ultimately the owners responsibility to maintain their home.

Ever curious, you present a valid argument about personal responsibility, and there is no doubt some Flintites will take advantage of this sorry situation. But those lead pipes have been in place for a long time and were NO PROBLEM until the switch to river water, and now that the corrosion is unleashed, Flint cannot return to before. That means a sudden expensive vital life-saving necessity in a hardscrabble town. Flint, individually and collectively, cannot come up the necessary funding. Many people and business from all around the area are sending supplies and offering aid. I have pledged to help cover the cost of 2 house's conversion for family there, and that is not an unusual promise. I believe if folks can pay, they should as a matter of honor. But what is required is a massive and coordinated effort until the whole job is done, and right now, whether a homeowner can pony up or not. A slapdash effort here & there isn't good enough. So Flint is twisting in the wind, with no known solution in sight, and Curious..this takes an organization as massive as a government, not a bunch of uncoordinated individuals looking out for themselves only. Oh yes! And watch out for the flim-flam opportunists who are selling 'magic' solutions for about 1K each.

 

[EverCurious]

I'd not be opposed to a new regulation requiring that homes with lead pipes to be retrofitted before resale, or before renting. After all, it's been over 30 years since we became aware of this issue and every one I know, realizes that if you look at an older home you need to get a water test on the pipes and a paint test on the paint before you buy it - it's pretty much gone into the common sense file (at least up here.) And frankly, if one is renting their place, then they are absolutely obligated to provide a safe home for their tenants.

This really should be a nationwide standard when reselling homes or renting, it's been long enough that there's really no excuse to keep blowing it off. It doesn't require a lot of oversight per say, just that the banks and home inspectors be required to check it. I'm not sure why any bank would want to finance a home with lead pipes anyway; it's a bad investment.

As for swapping out the pipes in existing homes, can you tell me how much that runs on average? I honestly have no idea, my husband and I usually choose to do most of the work on things ourselves because that way I can nit-pick without driving some poor contractor to drinking (I made my husband move my kitchen cabinets like six times lol) We'd pulled out all the pipes for the bottom floor of our house since we moved everything but the toilet around down here and I don't recall it costing over $1k for parts (albeit we actually removed all the baseboard heating pipes since we switched to radiant floor heating) and it took us maybe 2 days - we pulled all the siding and cedar planks off the house and replaced all the insulation, windows, and tyvek'd the entire house so I guess I'm seeing it would be relatively easy to pull the sheetrock or siding and replace all the pipes.

That in mind, perhaps throw pipe replacement under the tax credit for energy efficiency stuff they have for like replacing windows and stuff? (Not entirely sure what that's called, just that we had mentioned our remodel when chatting with our tax guy and he was like oooo you'll get a credit for the low-e windows and doors, then a couple days later he was like nvm there's an income cap restriction.)

 

[bullwinkle]

I'd not be opposed to a new regulation requiring that homes with lead pipes to be retrofitted before resale, or before renting. After all, it's been over 30 years since we became aware of this issue and every one I know, realizes that if you look at an older home you need to get a water test on the pipes and a paint test on the paint before you buy it - it's pretty much gone into the common sense file (at least up here.) And frankly, if one is renting their place, then they are absolutely obligated to provide a safe home for their tenants.

This really should be a nationwide standard when reselling homes or renting, it's been long enough that there's really no excuse to keep blowing it off. It doesn't require a lot of oversight per say, just that the banks and home inspectors be required to check it. I'm not sure why any bank would want to finance a home with lead pipes anyway; it's a bad investment.

As for swapping out the pipes in existing homes, can you tell me how much that runs on average? I honestly have no idea, my husband and I usually choose to do most of the work on things ourselves because that way I can nit-pick without driving some poor contractor to drinking (I made my husband move my kitchen cabinets like six times lol) We'd pulled out all the pipes for the bottom floor of our house since we moved everything but the toilet around down here and I don't recall it costing over $1k for parts (albeit we actually removed all the baseboard heating pipes since we switched to radiant floor heating) and it took us maybe 2 days - we pulled all the siding and cedar planks off the house and replaced all the insulation, windows, and tyvek'd the entire house so I guess I'm seeing it would be relatively easy to pull the sheetrock or siding and replace all the pipes.

That in mind, perhaps throw pipe replacement under the tax credit for energy efficiency stuff they have for like replacing windows and stuff? (Not entirely sure what that's called, just that we had mentioned our remodel when chatting with our tax guy and he was like oooo you'll get a credit for the low-e windows and doors, then a couple days later he was like nvm there's an income cap restriction.)

Curious, you have supplied some really viable suggestions, especially the suggestion about standards going forward. I also smile at your tale of reconstruction since I have been thru similar experiences, and it is the things that go wrong that are the ones remembered. I ripped out the entire house of old rattling windows and put in new, not replacement windows, but replaced all the old original, sills and all. However I mis-measured the smaller two over the kitchen sink, and after I put them in realized they couldn't be opened to clean because they were wider by 1-1/2" than the surrounding cupboards. So we got a couple of new cupboards too. I still smile over my frustration. But the Flint situation is a little different. Most of Flint uses the 1040EZ tax returns for Fed, State and City. These are folks that can barely keep the lawn mower running and peeling paint renewed, and porch steps straight, let alone replace floors, heating systems and whole house pipes even as DIY. My old neighborhood is peppered with elderly widows who purchased over the years only to find the home they save to retire in are in dire need of interior replacements beyond their capacity to pay. They work hard to maintain curb appeal and general upkeep, but the sudden necessity to fund replacement pipes @ about 4K per house plus connection to outside is a monumental burden beyond many. We can go on all day with coulda, woulda, shoulda, but it is no help to many of my old friends who worked hard all their lives, built an old age sanctuary for themselves to live moderately without burdening family, and retired to suddenly find themselves facing a major expense at a time in life when they can no longer climb the ladder to clean the eaves or fix the garage door or all those tasks so easy when one is hardy and has a mate.

 

[EverCurious]

I agree, I mean it's unfortunate, and I'll even agree that /some/ blame does go on the government for /not/ ensuring that we got rid of lead pipes through requirements (as well as banks for financing them, sellers for not fixing them, etc.)

But again, where exactly are we going to draw the line on personal ownership responsibility? If you buy a car that's leaking exhaust into the cab, is the government responsible for that? No. The owner can sue the previous owner under lemon law, but that is the extent of it. The same should be (and I do believe is) true of unsafe home purchases.

It sucks for these folks, I understand that, and I'm hoping that more caring citizens step forward to help those who really can't do anything about their situation, but I am not going to agree that it is the governments sole responsibility and thus their financial onus to repair privately owned homes. If we're going to go into what /I/ think should happen; these homes with lead pipes are condemned as unsafe; and I know you won't like that idea because it totally screws these folks, but for me it's a case of ripping the Band-Aid off quick rather than slow; clearly trying to take it off slow didn't work. It was expected that folks would eventually replace the stuff /knowing/ lead pipes and paint are bad, but they didn't.

Maybe some kind of federally assisted loan through a bank to help these folks pay for replacing the pipes?

 

[bullwinkle]

I agree, I mean it's unfortunate, and I'll even agree that /some/ blame does go on the government for /not/ ensuring that we got rid of lead pipes through requirements (as well as banks for financing them, sellers for not fixing them, etc.)

But again, where exactly are we going to draw the line on personal ownership responsibility? If you buy a car that's leaking exhaust into the cab, is the government responsible for that? No. The owner can sue the previous owner under lemon law, but that is the extent of it. The same should be (and I do believe is) true of unsafe home purchases.

It sucks for these folks, I understand that, and I'm hoping that more caring citizens step forward to help those who really can't do anything about their situation, but I am not going to agree that it is the governments sole responsibility and thus their financial onus to repair privately owned homes. If we're going to go into what /I/ think should happen; these homes with lead pipes are condemned as unsafe; and I know you won't like that idea because it totally screws these folks, but for me it's a case of ripping the Band-Aid off quick rather than slow; clearly trying to take it off slow didn't work. It was expected that folks would eventually replace the stuff /knowing/ lead pipes and paint are bad, but they didn't.

Maybe some kind of federally assisted loan through a bank to help these folks pay for replacing the pipes?

We do not disagree on the personal responsibility part and if I gave the impression I think a governing entity should pick up the burden, I apologize. I was born in Flint, grew up there when it was a small town, and learned like everyone else I knew, that if one job didn't cover your needs, get 2 jobs. And that unemployment is for the unfortunates only. Not only that, I am fortunate in having kids and grandkids who leave me independent while making sure my eaves are cleaned, garage is roofed, hinges oiled, and all the little things that keep me ship shape. But I am blessed with having less than I want and all that I need. Not so my old Flint friends. What many, most, need is a massive coordinated effort to get the job done. And that means funding. Not freebies, but reasonable loans and cut rates on costs involved for grade A materials. Another program that could be given a kick to speed up is the slow removal of abandoned houses, but that is a different problem entirely, and one all old cities suffer.

 

[initforme]

Those nasty union workers. Man they are awful folk.

 

[EverCurious]

We do not disagree on the personal responsibility part and if I gave the impression I think a governing entity should pick up the burden, I apologize. I was born in Flint, grew up there when it was a small town, and learned like everyone else I knew, that if one job didn't cover your needs, get 2 jobs. And that unemployment is for the unfortunates only. Not only that, I am fortunate in having kids and grandkids who leave me independent while making sure my eaves are cleaned, garage is roofed, hinges oiled, and all the little things that keep me ship shape. But I am blessed with having less than I want and all that I need. Not so my old Flint friends. What many, most, need is a massive coordinated effort to get the job done. And that means funding. Not freebies, but reasonable loans and cut rates on costs involved for grade A materials. Another program that could be given a kick to speed up is the slow removal of abandoned houses, but that is a different problem entirely, and one all old cities suffer.

Gotcha, we're on the same page then. I disagree that you need a mini-government to do it though. Hit up Home Depot or Lowes, or local supply companies - we have a place called Spenard Builders Supply that's HUGE on helping Alaskan building projects real local, so up here the box stores fight to work with HUD trying to push their way past/into the "Alaskan Grown" movement we've always up here. (Call us elitists but the majority of us would rather not support lower 48ers because they have zero concept of Alaska heh) Anyway, I'd presume that there is some local supplier, or maybe the box two, who would enjoy some /national/ media advertising by helping with this and would be willing to cut the costs. Either way it can't help to make some phone calls.


I guess we're kind of lucky regarding lead pipes in Alaska because a) we're a relatively "young" state, pretty much no one built homes until like the 50s, b) most of the older homes are located in Anchorage, and c) a bunch of old houses were destroyed by the 69 earthquake. In addition prior to like the 70s or so the vast, vast majority of the city-folks were on well water, which the banks require to be checked and thus any lead pipes (which started getting phased out in the 60s) got replaced before sale. Then the majority of folks in the bush /still/ don't even have running water in their villages so it's a non-issue there. Plus Anchorage (which has around half the population of the state) has also had a rule on the books since the late 80's/early 90s that all plumbing work (remodel, new, etc.) has to be signed off by an inspector (meaning it meets the EPA standards for the clean water act, including lead contamination), so I'm fairly confident we've gotten rid of nearly all of it up here (could be a few hold-outs with folks who homesteaded, but I doubt it since most of those folks are rich from selling their homestead land to builders so I imagine they'd have replaced them heh)

 

[Wilbur Right]

No one posting seems to have much plumbing experience.

Chances are that the water supply pipes themselves are not made of lead. It is the joints that are formed when two sections of pipe are put together where the lead was used to seal them.

Just like with copper water supply pipe. Used to be the solder that was sold to sweat together copper pipe had lead in it.

More than likely a lot of the homes in Flint have galvanized pipe for the supply of water in their homes. Galvanized pipe threads together. So no lead there.

If they have older copper pipe, it could have been sweated with lead and would pose a risk.

It was the corrosive water flowing over the old lead joints that allowed the lead to release and become water soluble.

Not that it makes much difference.

 

[EverCurious]

Thanks for the clarification regardless.

I had read that in June 2014 the EPA changed the standards for lead in pipes over to a weighted measurement (I believe it was 0.25), but they left the solder joints at 0.02... % or PPM? I don't recall.

 

[Moonglow]

Good for them.....
But seriously,if you found out there was a problem with your water and there was a filter available to fix it......why wouldnt it have been done already by the homeowner?

cost......

 

[Wilbur Right]

had read that in June 2014 the EPA changed the standards for lead in pipes over to a weighted measurement (I believe it was 0.25), but they left the solder joints at 0.02... % or PPM? I don't recall.

Dont know about that.
When lead solder was allowed, as much as 60% was pure lead. But there was a choice of lead mixes for different purposes.
I have sweated a lot of copper pipe. the no lead solder works fine. Just have to use a little more heat to get it to flow.

One thing for sure. I am glad I have my own well for water. And I replaced EVERYtHING that my water supply touched with lead free solder joints.

I have a 100 year old house, so who knows what was in the old pipes.

 

[EverCurious]

We did the same though ours is a 78 and we did it because we were remodeling the place - the kitchen was TERRIBLE... WTH were they thinking... couldn't even fit a 12" fry pan on the Jen-air stove (was between to floor to ceiling cabinets to the right of my rug rat there):

Cooking for four teenage boys was hell on that thing. We did this instead:

Bathrooms were a bit better off, but we remodeled them too. Still... I gotta say, my bio-father has a hundred year old house in rural ND and it's got a special kind of charm. He remodeled his top to bottom as well, I still remember the special hell of pulling down all the lat (sp?) and plaster on the walls when I was like 10... Then we would watch Johnny Carson with a huge bowl of popcorn - the good memories aren't too far behind.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Good for them.....
But seriously,if you found out there was a problem with your water and there was a filter available to fix it......why wouldnt it have been done already by the homeowner?

cost......

Fifteen bucks?

 

[EverCurious]

Is it really that cheap for a home filter? I guess I was figuring more around $100.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Is it really that cheap for a home filter? I guess I was figuring more around $100.

Brita and Pur both make one in that price range.

 

[Nosmo King]

Union pensions tanked Flint, Flint decided to buy dirty water, Union plumbers install filters.

Nice balance

it's. Not a binary choice: retirement with dignity or safe drinking water! Why shouldn't citizens have both?

 

[EverCurious]

Is it really that cheap for a home filter? I guess I was figuring more around $100.

Brita and Pur both make one in that price range.

Do those get rid of lead? (I don't have any clue) If they do then the public needs to hit up Brita and Pur for some low cost filters for folks to end this stupid problem.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Union pensions tanked Flint, Flint decided to buy dirty water, Union plumbers install filters.

Nice balance

it's. Not a binary choice: retirement with dignity or safe drinking water! Why shouldn't citizens have both?

Private sector employees make far more than their private sector counterparts, why do citizens have to pay for that?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Is it really that cheap for a home filter? I guess I was figuring more around $100.

Brita and Pur both make one in that price range.

Do those get rid of lead? (I don't have any clue) If they do then the public needs to hit up Brita and Pur for some low cost filters for folks to end this stupid problem.

They say they do.
And at fifteen bucks a piece they can buy their own.

 

[pwjohn]

Is it really that cheap for a home filter? I guess I was figuring more around $100.

Brita and Pur both make one in that price range.

Do those get rid of lead? (I don't have any clue) If they do then the public needs to hit up Brita and Pur for some low cost filters for folks to end this stupid problem.

They say they do.
And at fifteen bucks a piece they can buy their own.

Who's they ? And would you risk the well being of your children based on a mere claim.