100% of Economists Disagree with Trump

[deltex1]

Yet both are considered a consumption tax in the end......................both raise prices to generate revenue for the Gov't.............If they both raise the price of a widget...........then really is it that much of a difference?????????

The difference is that a VAT is less distortionary to economic activity.

A VAT raises prices across all products. There is no advantage to one industry. A tariff raises prices only on some industries, and benefits industries which cannot compete.

With a tariff, capital that otherwise would have flowed to more efficient enterprises which help economic growth is instead diverted to less efficient industries to prop them up. It's a failing strategy that destroys wealth.

Many conservative economists believe that we should replace the income tax with a VAT because it's more efficient. Liberal economists disagree on moral grounds more than economic ones.

100% of economists are wrong 100% of the time. If you watched CNBC or fox biz you would know that.

 

[Toro]

Countries like Japan and China still put import Quotas on our goods and services.............Just as we did to them in the past which brought some of their plants here.

Report: U.S. drops bid to end Japanese import rules

In April 2013, Japan announced it would more than double the number of motor vehicles eligible for import under its fast-track rules. Detroit's Big Three automakers are now be allowed to export up to 5,000 vehicles annually of each vehicle type under the program, compared with the prior ceiling of 2,000 vehicles per vehicle type.

The U.S., Japan, Mexico, Canada and eight other nations have been negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership that would create a free trade zone comprising 40 percent of the world's economy for more than four years. Australia, Brunei, Chile, New Zealand, Malaysia, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam are part of the talks.

Automakers have been pushing for at least three years to convince the Obama administration to include provisions in the agreement barring the countries from currency manipulation, but Treasury Secretary Jacob Lew and Froman have repeatedly shown no interest in doing so, arguing such issues are better addressed by global forums like the World Trade Organization.

Automakers worry that foreign governments — like Japan — will be able to weaken their currency to undercut U.S. vehicle production.

Trump has addressed that.

There is a double standard on the BS deals we make. Free Trade isn't really Free..........Tariffs are still used as are quota's...........before these so called Free Deals we made trade agreements via a country by country basis............Give and Take.........You drop that duty, and we'll drop this one.........until a deal is struck.................

Now we go to the World Courts to decide our fate............best example is the Country of Origin labeling...........Challenged by the WTO and NAFTA courts our country lost and the court allowed Billions in Tariff penalties because of OUR LAW.............. And as a result, they just passed the legislation to end Country of Origin labeling.

It's not whether you agree or disagree with the law.................It's whether they should have to abide by the LAWS OF OUR COUNTRY to do business here. Just the same as we must abide by their laws to do business there. We are a SOVEREIGN NATION.......Our Laws should not be determined by a foreign court.

What is the double standard?

Dispute resolution mechanisms are included in trade deals to ensure that parties abide by the agreements they sign by their own volition in their own legislatures.

The United States is hardly immune to playing politics that violate trade agreements for domestic political consumption. The softwood lumber tariffs on Canadian imports taxes - which raise the price of an American home by $1,000-$1,500 - is perhaps the most egregious example.

 

[Toro]

Whether the VAT or the Tariff I pay more for goods. Both destroy my wealth by causing me to spend more for products. One doesn't hit the pocketbook on everything, the other does..................

But both do not destroy wealth equally. The tariff destroys wealth more. IOW, if the tariff and the VAT were to raise the same amount of tax revenue, GDP would be less with the tariff than the VAT.

Economics 101.

 

[Toro]

100% of economists are wrong 100% of the time. If you watched CNBC or fox biz you would know that.

If you were correct, the USSR would be the richest, most powerful nation in the world today.

 

[Indeependent]

Whether the VAT or the Tariff I pay more for goods. Both destroy my wealth by causing me to spend more for products. One doesn't hit the pocketbook on everything, the other does..................

But both do not destroy wealth equally. The tariff destroys wealth more. IOW, if the tariff and the VAT were to raise the same amount of tax revenue, GDP would be less with the tariff than the VAT.

Economics 101.

Conservatives, being self-reliant and adaptable to any situation, should not be concerned.
They can overcome ANY obstruction on the way to accumulating wealthy.
At least that's what they post.

 

[deltex1]

100% of economists are wrong 100% of the time. If you watched CNBC or fox biz you would know that.

If you were correct, the USSR would be the richest, most powerful nation in the world today.

Oh.

 

[Toro]

Conservatives, being self-reliant and adaptable to any situation, should not be concerned.
They can overcome ANY obstruction on the way to accumulating wealthy.
At least that's what they post.

But most of the "conservatives" are in this thread arguing against me.

At least you're being ideologically consistent. These "conservatives" are not.

I am making a pro-market argument.

Apparently, they don't have much faith in capitalism.

Now, they'll say "Oh, we believe in capitalism. It's just that these trade deals blah, blah, blah."

But what they are saying is that capitalism is bad at allocating capital.

Because Trump tells them otherwise, and they have too much invested emotionally with Trump, they now argue for taxes and anti-capitalist policies that if Obama had proposed, they would have raged against.

Socialists around the world generally are against free trade and higher tariffs.

But in America, "conservatives" agree.

It's bizarre.

 

[Indeependent]

Conservatives, being self-reliant and adaptable to any situation, should not be concerned.
They can overcome ANY obstruction on the way to accumulating wealthy.
At least that's what they post.

But most of the "conservatives" are in this thread arguing against me.

At least you're being ideologically consistent. These "conservatives" are not.

I am making a pro-market argument.

Apparently, they don't have much faith in capitalism.

Now, they'll say "Oh, we believe in capitalism. It's just that these trade deals blah, blah, blah."

But what they are saying is that capitalism is bad at allocating capital.

Because Trump tells them otherwise, and they have too much invested emotionally with Trump, they now argue for taxes and anti-capitalist policies that if Obama had proposed, they would have raged against.

Socialists around the world generally are against free trade and higher tariffs.

But in America, "conservatives" agree.

It's bizarre.

The bottom line is that the favored Conservative theories, in practice, DON'T WORK.
And Trump has sat down and explained his view, MORE THAN ONCE, in much more than a Sound Bite.

 

[Toro]

The bottom line is that the favored Conservative theories, in practice, DON'T WORK.
And Trump has sat down and explained his view, MORE THAN ONCE, in much more than a Sound Bite.

Yes, Trump is saying that capitalism - at least this part of capitalism - doesn't work.

Thanks for that.

Yet, his supporters - "conservatives" who would otherwise tell me that capitalism is better than socialism - are agreeing with you.

Tariffs are socialism.

 

[eagle1462010]

Countries like Japan and China still put import Quotas on our goods and services.............Just as we did to them in the past which brought some of their plants here.

Report: U.S. drops bid to end Japanese import rules

In April 2013, Japan announced it would more than double the number of motor vehicles eligible for import under its fast-track rules. Detroit's Big Three automakers are now be allowed to export up to 5,000 vehicles annually of each vehicle type under the program, compared with the prior ceiling of 2,000 vehicles per vehicle type.

The U.S., Japan, Mexico, Canada and eight other nations have been negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership that would create a free trade zone comprising 40 percent of the world's economy for more than four years. Australia, Brunei, Chile, New Zealand, Malaysia, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam are part of the talks.

Automakers have been pushing for at least three years to convince the Obama administration to include provisions in the agreement barring the countries from currency manipulation, but Treasury Secretary Jacob Lew and Froman have repeatedly shown no interest in doing so, arguing such issues are better addressed by global forums like the World Trade Organization.

Automakers worry that foreign governments — like Japan — will be able to weaken their currency to undercut U.S. vehicle production.

Trump has addressed that.

There is a double standard on the BS deals we make. Free Trade isn't really Free..........Tariffs are still used as are quota's...........before these so called Free Deals we made trade agreements via a country by country basis............Give and Take.........You drop that duty, and we'll drop this one.........until a deal is struck.................

Now we go to the World Courts to decide our fate............best example is the Country of Origin labeling...........Challenged by the WTO and NAFTA courts our country lost and the court allowed Billions in Tariff penalties because of OUR LAW.............. And as a result, they just passed the legislation to end Country of Origin labeling.

It's not whether you agree or disagree with the law.................It's whether they should have to abide by the LAWS OF OUR COUNTRY to do business here. Just the same as we must abide by their laws to do business there. We are a SOVEREIGN NATION.......Our Laws should not be determined by a foreign court.

What is the double standard?

Dispute resolution mechanisms are included in trade deals to ensure that parties abide by the agreements they sign by their own volition in their own legislatures.

The United States is hardly immune to playing politics that violate trade agreements for domestic political consumption. The softwood lumber tariffs on Canadian imports taxes - which raise the price of an American home by $1,000-$1,500 - is perhaps the most egregious example.

Cruz's VAT tax proposal who raise it more than that.................which is why I asked about buying a house........

Some couple trying to buy their first home who work hard and are chasing the American dream will CUSS CRUZ should that VAT be imposed.................Prices in Europe are higher.....how about their gas prices..........and after implementing a set rate what is to stop the VAT from being increased anyway a few years down the road.................

I believe Free Trade has cost us 10's of millions of jobs...........we have increased those living on the Gov't dole as our jobs leave the country to increase profits for the Corps...................I have no problem taxing them on the way back in.................I also have a problem with them going to countries with virtually No labor standards, No EPA standards, while our businesses have those costs............the only way to stop that unfair trade is to Tariff them on the way back in....................

You are concerned with the GDP and the GDP alone...........saying how it will create more jobs...................I disagree. Protectionism has actually created foreign investment here in the past due to Tariffs and QUOTA'S............Other countries still employ those under the Free Trade agreements and the WTO courts don't always settle that problem...........

 

[eagle1462010]

The bottom line is that the favored Conservative theories, in practice, DON'T WORK.
And Trump has sat down and explained his view, MORE THAN ONCE, in much more than a Sound Bite.

Yes, Trump is saying that capitalism - at least this part of capitalism - doesn't work.

Thanks for that.

Yet, his supporters - "conservatives" who would otherwise tell me that capitalism is better than socialism - are agreeing with you.

Tariffs are socialism.

BS...............Tariff is a tax to fund Gov't.................plain and simple..............Just as the VAT tax does the same........They are both Consumption taxes............Just use a SALES TAX versus a FLAT TAX so it isn't hidden anymore...............aka when you pay under Cruz's plan the amount in tax will not be on the receipt..............but it will still be there................Just as the increased cost for a vehicle due to a Tariff will not be seen on the final bill.

 

[Indeependent]

The bottom line is that the favored Conservative theories, in practice, DON'T WORK.
And Trump has sat down and explained his view, MORE THAN ONCE, in much more than a Sound Bite.

Yes, Trump is saying that capitalism - at least this part of capitalism - doesn't work.

Thanks for that.

Yet, his supporters - "conservatives" who would otherwise tell me that capitalism is better than socialism - are agreeing with you.

Tariffs are socialism.

What makes you think that half of our economy is not Socialism?
Anyone who can't make money via Fair Trade, like successful people did prior to all this Free Market nonsense, doesn't deserve to be in business.

 

[eagle1462010]

The Value-Added Tax Is Wrong for the United States

VAT Flaws

While the VAT has some advantages over other taxes, it is far from trouble free. The VAT has several inherent problems.

Hidden Tax. The VAT’s biggest flaw is that, unless mandated otherwise, the amount of VAT paid by taxpayers is hidden. (See Chart 1.) In this example, the consumer knows only that the price of the shirt is $22.00. Because the VAT is typically not printed on the sales receipt, the consumer does not know that the price includes a 10 percent ($2.00) VAT. One fundamental principle of sound taxation is transparency, and most nations’ VATs flagrantly violate this principle.

State and local sales taxes are explicitly shown on sales receipts so consumers know the cost of the good before and after the tax. Even though a VAT would raise the final cost of goods and services in the same way, the VAT is typically not shown on sales receipts because politicians hide the steep price of the VAT and their policies from taxpayers.

Even if the VAT is shown on receipts, taxpayers are highly unlikely to keep their receipts and total their VAT for the year. Politicians especially like the VAT because it obscures the tax burden and the true cost of government services from taxpayers. This can lead taxpayers to demand more government services because they wrongly perceive that the prices of such services are lower than they are. In a democratic state, the cost of taxes and government should be as explicit as possible so that taxpayers and voters can make fully informed decisions about the size of government.


That is from HERITAGE...........HARDLY A LIBERAL MOUTH PIECE.ON THE VAT.

 

[Vigilante]

Donald Trump's Tax Plan Is a Large Tax Cut for the Middle ...
taxfoundation.org/.../donald-trump-s-tax-plan-large-tax-...
Tax Foundation
Sep 30, 2015 - wrote Barro, “Mr. Trump would offer huge tax cuts for the middle and upper-middle class.” Needless to say, our distributional tables thoroughly ...

 

[Toro]

The bottom line is that the favored Conservative theories, in practice, DON'T WORK.
And Trump has sat down and explained his view, MORE THAN ONCE, in much more than a Sound Bite.

Yes, Trump is saying that capitalism - at least this part of capitalism - doesn't work.

Thanks for that.

Yet, his supporters - "conservatives" who would otherwise tell me that capitalism is better than socialism - are agreeing with you.

Tariffs are socialism.

BS...............Tariff is a tax to fund Gov't.................plain and simple..............Just as the VAT tax does the same........They are both Consumption taxes............Just use a SALES TAX versus a FLAT TAX so it isn't hidden anymore...............aka when you pay under Cruz's plan the amount in tax will not be on the receipt..............but it will still be there................Just as the increased cost for a vehicle due to a Tariff will not be seen on the final bill.

They are not the same.

That's what I have been telling you repeatedly in this thread.

Tariffs distort the economy and destroy wealth more than VAT taxes.

That's why 100% of economists - or 95% or 90% or whatever really high percentage you want to choose - disagree with you.

It is simply understanding the dynamics of supply and demand. It's understanding capitalism. It is Economics 101.

 

[Indeependent]

The bottom line is that the favored Conservative theories, in practice, DON'T WORK.
And Trump has sat down and explained his view, MORE THAN ONCE, in much more than a Sound Bite.

Yes, Trump is saying that capitalism - at least this part of capitalism - doesn't work.

Thanks for that.

Yet, his supporters - "conservatives" who would otherwise tell me that capitalism is better than socialism - are agreeing with you.

Tariffs are socialism.

BS...............Tariff is a tax to fund Gov't.................plain and simple..............Just as the VAT tax does the same........They are both Consumption taxes............Just use a SALES TAX versus a FLAT TAX so it isn't hidden anymore...............aka when you pay under Cruz's plan the amount in tax will not be on the receipt..............but it will still be there................Just as the increased cost for a vehicle due to a Tariff will not be seen on the final bill.

They are not the same.

That's what I have been telling you repeatedly in this thread.

Tariffs distort the economy and destroy wealth more than VAT taxes.

That's why 100% of economists - or 95% or 90% or whatever really high percentage you want to choose - disagree with you.

It is simply understanding the dynamics of supply and demand. It's understanding capitalism. It is Economics 101.

Free Trade Doesn't Work: What Should Replace It and Why, 2011 Edition: Ian Fletcher: 9780578079677: Amazon.com: Books
Why Free Trade Doesn't Work

 

[The Rabbi]

Utter bullshit OP. Do you know how many disagreements I have read against David Ricardo?
how do you think Japan got so badass?
How do you think America got so badass?
That is barely higher than what we charge American corporations any damn ways.

Japan is badass? 20 years of stagnant no growth economy because gov't has taken all the competition out of it.
Of course Trump is repeating the same line that Hillary and Bernie use.
Why anyone thinks that buffoon should be president is beyon dme.

 

[Synthaholic]

He sounds like a progressive.

Uh-oh. Bill Clinton needs to tell him to dial that back a bit or the ruse won't last!

 

[Toro]

The Value-Added Tax Is Wrong for the United States

VAT Flaws

While the VAT has some advantages over other taxes, it is far from trouble free. The VAT has several inherent problems.

Hidden Tax. The VAT’s biggest flaw is that, unless mandated otherwise, the amount of VAT paid by taxpayers is hidden. (See Chart 1.) In this example, the consumer knows only that the price of the shirt is $22.00. Because the VAT is typically not printed on the sales receipt, the consumer does not know that the price includes a 10 percent ($2.00) VAT. One fundamental principle of sound taxation is transparency, and most nations’ VATs flagrantly violate this principle.

State and local sales taxes are explicitly shown on sales receipts so consumers know the cost of the good before and after the tax. Even though a VAT would raise the final cost of goods and services in the same way, the VAT is typically not shown on sales receipts because politicians hide the steep price of the VAT and their policies from taxpayers.

Even if the VAT is shown on receipts, taxpayers are highly unlikely to keep their receipts and total their VAT for the year. Politicians especially like the VAT because it obscures the tax burden and the true cost of government services from taxpayers. This can lead taxpayers to demand more government services because they wrongly perceive that the prices of such services are lower than they are. In a democratic state, the cost of taxes and government should be as explicit as possible so that taxpayers and voters can make fully informed decisions about the size of government.


That is from HERITAGE...........HARDLY A LIBERAL MOUTH PIECE.ON THE VAT.

You've made the choice between tariffs v. VAT, not VAT v nothing.

A VAT is better than tariffs. It is the lesser of two evils.

Here is the Heritage Foundation on free trade.

International trade is the framework upon which American prosperity rests. Free trade policies have created a level of competition in today's open market that engenders continual innovation and leads to better products, better-paying jobs, new markets, and increased savings and investment. Free trade enables more goods and services to reach American consumers at lower prices, thereby substantially increasing their standard of living.

Moreover, the benefits of free trade extend well beyond American households. Free trade helps to spread the value of freedom, reinforce the rule of law, and foster economic development in poor countries. The national debate over trade-related issues too often ignores these important benefits.​

The Benefits of Free Trade: A Guide For Policymakers

That is exactly correct.

 

[The Rabbi]

The bottom line is that the favored Conservative theories, in practice, DON'T WORK.
And Trump has sat down and explained his view, MORE THAN ONCE, in much more than a Sound Bite.

Yes, Trump is saying that capitalism - at least this part of capitalism - doesn't work.

Thanks for that.

Yet, his supporters - "conservatives" who would otherwise tell me that capitalism is better than socialism - are agreeing with you.

Tariffs are socialism.

BS...............Tariff is a tax to fund Gov't.................plain and simple..............Just as the VAT tax does the same........They are both Consumption taxes............Just use a SALES TAX versus a FLAT TAX so it isn't hidden anymore...............aka when you pay under Cruz's plan the amount in tax will not be on the receipt..............but it will still be there................Just as the increased cost for a vehicle due to a Tariff will not be seen on the final bill.

They are not the same.

That's what I have been telling you repeatedly in this thread.

Tariffs distort the economy and destroy wealth more than VAT taxes.

That's why 100% of economists - or 95% or 90% or whatever really high percentage you want to choose - disagree with you.

It is simply understanding the dynamics of supply and demand. It's understanding capitalism. It is Economics 101.

Liberals do not understand economics.
Sadly a lot of self styled conservatives dont either.