Your own belief.

[hobelim]

In contrary I keep questioning the atheistic faith and I found a lot about the flaws in the atheistic way of reasoning.

Have you guys ever questioned your atheistic belief. For example, have you ever examined into the details of the following line of reasoning,

We shouldn't believe those claims unsupported by our science and empirical evidence.

In principle I agree.


However, what I have found is that since everything recorded in scripture supposedly happened here on earth, anything that contradicts well known scientific facts about biological and physical realities cannot possibly be literally true but that in itself does not preclude the possibility of hidden truth and that these stories were never intended to be taken literally by intelligent people the same way that fables or fairy tales use fanatical stories with talking animals and mythological creatures to emphasize and teach a truth about the realities of life in this world, usually to children.

So, in short, science has only proven false that which scripture is not about and is no reason to stop digging deeper like any intelligent creature thinks deeply to discover the truth of something.

 

[Penelope]

So now your a zealot jew?

Jews are an ethnicity, and Judaism is based on the Talmud. I only follow the Old Testament.

So your a True Torah Jew or perhaps a Samaritan. Do you believe in stoning and sex slaves aka concubines?

 

[Iceweasel]

How many homosexuals have you killed so far?

I have nothing against homosexuals, but I would like to wipe out America (meaning those who are culturally American) which is the moral equivalent of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Yep, you are a little out there. Praise the Lord and pass the ammo!

 

[fschmidt]

Praise the Lord and pass the ammo!

Yes, if I could only convince the Anabaptists to do this too.

 

[Iceweasel]

Praise the Lord and pass the ammo!

Yes, if I could only convince the Anabaptists to do this too.

I hope you are on a watch list.

 

[Hawkins]

However, what I have found is that since everything recorded in scripture supposedly happened here on earth, anything that contradicts well known scientific facts about biological and physical realities cannot possibly be literally true but that in itself does not preclude the possibility of hidden truth and that these stories were never intended to be taken literally by intelligent people the same way that fables or fairy tales use fanatical stories with talking animals and mythological creatures to emphasize and teach a truth about the realities of life in this world, usually to children.

So, in short, science has only proven false that which scripture is not about and is no reason to stop digging deeper like any intelligent creature thinks deeply to discover the truth of something.

In examining a possible truth. You first need to proper tool to do the exploring. Is it science a proper tool. A lot think that it is. However it's actually not.

Science is experiment and observation based. So in order to confirm a truth scientifically you need to go "there" to do experiments and observations. Thus science is only efficient in exploring 'things' inside our physical realm or time-space. Spiritual claims are about what lying outside our physical realm which is unreachable by our science (under the assumption that a truth could possibly be there). To put it another way, even when a truth lies there there is no way that you can approach such a truth as we can't go there to do experiments or observations to confirm it scientifically. This is the limitation of our science.

It is analog to say that you try to draw a conclusion that nothing exists outside a wall simply because your hand is unable to break it to see what's out there.

Another example is that humans in stone age have no way to reach the truth that black holes exist as this truth is out of the reach of their science. However they can reach such a truth if a modern man is sent back by a time machine to tell them that black holes exist, and for them to believe with faith!

 

[fschmidt]

Science is experiment and observation based. So in order to confirm a truth scientifically you need to go "there" to do experiments and observations. Thus science is only efficient in exploring 'things' inside our physical realm or time-space. Spiritual claims are about what lying outside our physical realm which is unreachable by our science (under the assumption that a truth could possibly be there). To put it another way, even when a truth lies there there is no way that you can approach such a truth as we can't go there to do experiments or observations to confirm it scientifically. This is the limitation of our science.

First of all, spirituality is a horrible modern concept. What matters is religion, not spirituality. And what religion addresses is social questions.

Soft science is garbage, so I will just comment on hard science. Hard science requires experiments, which means that being inside time-space isn't enough. To perform an experiment, one must be able to reproduce the issue at the current time, and the duration of the issue should be shorter than a normal human lifespan for anyone to bother doing it. This latter point excludes social issues since meaningful social change happens over generations.

There are actually two ways to address social issues. One is study history and use these observations to reach conclusions. Because controlled experiments are impossible, one cannot prove causality but one can show correlation. The general approach should be to categorize behaviors that correlate with rising cultures as good and behaviors that correlate with falling cultures as bad. This is the approach of the Old Testament and is my approach. Based on this approach, modern culture is pure evil and the sooner it is destroyed, the better.

Another approach to social issues is the traditionalist approach. In this approach, one simply accepts a traditional social system because it has proven itself to work historically. This is the approach of traditional Christianity and is a valid approach in my opinion.

Of course I left out the modern approach which is basically pulling social conclusions out of one's ass and then making up bullshit rationalizations to support them. Obviously this doesn't produce good results.

 

[Daniyel]

So now your a zealot jew?

Jews are an ethnicity, and Judaism is based on the Talmud. I only follow the Old Testament.

Karaite Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[fschmidt]

Karaite Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course I know about the Karaites. They are the exception, mainstream Judaism is based on the Talmud. I am sympathetic with the Karaites but I am not a Karaite.

 

[Brynmr]

It is very common for one to be born to a certain belief and die following the same belief, however, in the bible we learn about Abraham that questioned everything in his time and was the very first person on earth to get in a covenant with God, the same concept is shared with Jethro, Jesus, Buddha, Stephan Hawking and many other remarkable individuals that explored beyond others in their times for the truth or what could be as close to the truth as they could get.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not clear what you're getting at unless it's to point out certain individuals sought their own spiritual path to a completion. Thanks.

 

[hobelim]

In examining a possible truth. You first need to proper tool to do the exploring. Is it science a proper tool. A lot think that it is. However it's actually not.

Science is experiment and observation based. So in order to confirm a truth scientifically you need to go "there" to do experiments and observations. Thus science is only efficient in exploring 'things' inside our physical realm or time-space. Spiritual claims are about what lying outside our physical realm which is unreachable by our science (under the assumption that a truth could possibly be there). To put it another way, even when a truth lies there there is no way that you can approach such a truth as we can't go there to do experiments or observations to confirm it scientifically. This is the limitation of our science.

I do agree that science is not the proper tool for such an exploration, but while searching for truth in scripture science is invaluable as a constraint as to what the stories can or cannot possibly be actually about.

I disagree that the truth of any given spiritual claim cannot be observed, confirmed or refuted according to the scientific method.

The way I see it, if scripture clearly says that in the very day a person eats pork they will surely die and anyone can see that is not even remotely true then either the story is about something else out it is complete nonsense.

When searching for deeper meaning only alluded to by the words used the mind is the only tool capable of such an inquiry.

That is why a modern person must have a sober knowledge of reality and scientific discoveries about the nature of the laws that govern the material universe to even have a chance to comprehend what bronze age people were secretly teaching their children about the harsh realities of the world in which they lived..

A second grade education about how to look for the moral of a fairy tale would be helpful, understanding metaphors, allegories, homonyms, hyperbole, etc.

One way to test if the laws of God are in effect, as Jesus claimed, one just has to find a person who violates the law to see if they have died in any way as a consequence of that forbidden behavior.

I propose that if a person does not have the conscious awareness about how ridiculous and degrading it is to seek help or spiritual life of any kind from something that has no life of any kind, as with those who worship, pray to, and eat the eucharist for spiritual life, they evidently have already received "the death" consequent and are already under the condemnation of God.

 

[Daniyel]

It is very common for one to be born to a certain belief and die following the same belief, however, in the bible we learn about Abraham that questioned everything in his time and was the very first person on earth to get in a covenant with God, the same concept is shared with Jethro, Jesus, Buddha, Stephan Hawking and many other remarkable individuals that explored beyond others in their times for the truth or what could be as close to the truth as they could get.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not clear what you're getting at unless it's to point out certain individuals sought their own spiritual path to a completion. Thanks.

I'm not very good at explaining myself, but from my point of view many people will fiercely 'protect' or argue for their own spiritual belief without actually knowing what else is out there, very few people were actually exploring far and wide enough to claim they got to a good conclusion out of understanding ALL the variables and yet still there is as @fschimdt said earlier, the element of faith which is not a static variable because nobody can provide a decisively true answer to this equation.

I was born Jewish, as for now I am Jewish without knowing whether its actually the true religion or not, I can't determine that by 100% but I can definitely get a better point of view only by removing as many options out of the list, still it wouldn't be an accurate answer but it would be closer than following a belief by default, therefore I'm questioning my own belief on daily basis, since only something that is true would remain true constantly in all times.

Jethro for instance was a spiritual man, he was exploring many religions and finally got to a conclusion to follow Judaism, this is a revolutionary thinking considering that hardly 90% of the people we know born and die to the same spiritual belief, whatever it is, and some are actually living a very spiritual life.

 

[Daniyel]

Karaite Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course I know about the Karaites. They are the exception, mainstream Judaism is based on the Talmud. I am sympathetic with the Karaites but I am not a Karaite.

Judaism is based on Judaism not the Torah(Old Testament), the Halakha (meaning 'law') is the way of living based off the different streams is somewhat different, Karaite determine their Halakha(law) based on the Old Testament individually, Orthodox Judaism for instance is based on the "written/oral Torah" and "Toshba"/Talmudic literature - wisdom passed on by generations which is not specifically the Talmud itself but also tradition.
Judaism breaks everything down to 4 levels of understanding like a musical chart it can be played by different instruments, the four levels are also a meaning for ascending higher to God by being able to understand them which is why Jews study constantly, they are called 'Pardes' - back to the Karaites, they follow the first interpretation alone, Kabbulah for instance is of the highest meanings of knowledge and according to Orthodox Judaism is to be studied only by somebody who been authorized so by older generation and after knowing everything and beyond about everything else (Torah, Mishna, Talmud) all three approaches, we view those who pretend to teach Kabbulah as patronizing and false since Judaism is very centered around passing knowledge accurately to future generations and that is breaking a chain of ages.
Pardes (Jewish exegesis) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[fschmidt]

Judaism is based on Judaism not the Torah(Old Testament), the Halakha (meaning 'law') is the way of living based off the different streams is somewhat different, Karaite determine their Halakha(law) based on the Old Testament individually, Orthodox Judaism for instance is based on the "written/oral Torah" and "Toshba"/Talmudic literature - wisdom passed on by generations which is not specifically the Talmud itself but also tradition.
Judaism breaks everything down to 4 levels of understanding like a musical chart it can be played by different instruments, the four levels are also a meaning for ascending higher to God by being able to understand them which is why Jews study constantly, they are called 'Pardes' - back to the Karaites, they follow the first interpretation alone, Kabbulah for instance is of the highest meanings of knowledge and according to Orthodox Judaism is to be studied only by somebody who been authorized so by older generation and after knowing everything and beyond about everything else (Torah, Mishna, Talmud) all three approaches, we view those who pretend to teach Kabbulah as patronizing and false since Judaism is very centered around passing knowledge accurately to future generations and that is breaking a chain of ages.
Pardes (Jewish exegesis) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know all this. It's kind of pathetic that halacha has come to mean law when the root word is walk and the common meaning was just "the way". The Talmud is horribly legalistic. I think of the 4 levels of Pardes as the 4 levels of Talmudic insanity. The Karaites only use peshat and I don't use any of them (well maybe a little peshat). What I use is understanding, a concept completely absent from the Talmud. Anyway, here is a guy who is more sympathetic than I am to Judaism but who still has some common sense:

Rabbi Asher Meza

 

[Daniyel]

Judaism is based on Judaism not the Torah(Old Testament), the Halakha (meaning 'law') is the way of living based off the different streams is somewhat different, Karaite determine their Halakha(law) based on the Old Testament individually, Orthodox Judaism for instance is based on the "written/oral Torah" and "Toshba"/Talmudic literature - wisdom passed on by generations which is not specifically the Talmud itself but also tradition.
Judaism breaks everything down to 4 levels of understanding like a musical chart it can be played by different instruments, the four levels are also a meaning for ascending higher to God by being able to understand them which is why Jews study constantly, they are called 'Pardes' - back to the Karaites, they follow the first interpretation alone, Kabbulah for instance is of the highest meanings of knowledge and according to Orthodox Judaism is to be studied only by somebody who been authorized so by older generation and after knowing everything and beyond about everything else (Torah, Mishna, Talmud) all three approaches, we view those who pretend to teach Kabbulah as patronizing and false since Judaism is very centered around passing knowledge accurately to future generations and that is breaking a chain of ages.
Pardes (Jewish exegesis) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know all this. It's kind of pathetic that halacha has come to mean law when the root word is walk and the common meaning was just "the way". The Talmud is horribly legalistic. I think of the 4 levels of Pardes as the 4 levels of Talmudic insanity. The Karaites only use peshat and I don't use any of them (well maybe a little peshat). What I use is understanding, a concept completely absent from the Talmud. Anyway, here is a guy who is more sympathetic than I am to Judaism but who still has some common sense:

Rabbi Asher Meza

You missed it, "Halakha" stands for 'a walking' or a parade which is all about being Jewish to Jews.

The Chassidic stream specifically emphasize that meaning of being the brick in the wall to serve God as a home on earth and to open streams of harmony and positivity throughout the ability to be closer to God and stream more of God to the world.
In all of Judaism streams 'Goyim' ("nations")are to serve another chain that is less closer to God but is mandatory part of the chain from God to earth, therefore commanded with less duties("7 commands of Noah") while none of the oral Torah speaks of the purpose of Judaism/faith (except the commands which are for everyone) but only repeats historical events that are sacred.

I'm curious to know why are you following the Torah?

 

[hobelim]

In all of Judaism streams 'Goyim' ("nations")are to serve another chain that is less closer to God

Nonsense. There are no such thing as noachide laws.

The expressed purpose for Jews being given the law at all was to be a light to the nations, not to keep them in the dark and not to try and usurp a place over them by keeping the way to life hidden.

What creature in all of scripture knows the will of God but tries to pass off some lie that contradicts it in order to usurp a place of authority over the gullible and stand in the place of God?

 

[fschmidt]

In all of Judaism streams 'Goyim' ("nations")are to serve another chain that is less closer to God but is mandatory part of the chain from God to earth, therefore commanded with less duties("7 commands of Noah") while none of the oral Torah speaks of the purpose of Judaism/faith (except the commands which are for everyone) but only repeats historical events that are sacred.

I'm curious to know why are you following the Torah?

The Karaites don't have the Noahide concept, and the rabbi that I linked to also rejects it.

I was raised atheist and when I realized that modern culture had become hopelessly degenerate, I looked for an alternative by reading all the major religious texts. The Torah makes the most sense to me, as explained in the rest of the Old Testament and as understood in the context of science and history.

 

[Hawkins]

I do agree that science is not the proper tool for such an exploration, but while searching for truth in scripture science is invaluable as a constraint as to what the stories can or cannot possibly be actually about.

I disagree that the truth of any given spiritual claim cannot be observed, confirmed or refuted according to the scientific method.

You miss the point. The point is you life time is limited and within your life time you are unable to explore into the spiritual realm using your science. However you have to make up your mind within your limited life time for a decision which could possibly affect your dead or alive.

You can't stand neutral to use your science to try and error as the biblical message is for your own salvation.

The way I see it, if scripture clearly says that in the very day a person eats pork they will surely die and anyone can see that is not even remotely true then either the story is about something else out it is complete nonsense.

No. The Bible is not a book of plain description. It contains prophecies, teachings not aimed for ancient people but to skip current humans to reach future humans, or vice versa.

So you can't tell that "the very day a person eats pork they will surely die and anyone can see that is not even remotely true" as this may be a prophecy only comes to pass at a certain time frame which your life time may not be inside.

The actual verse from the Bible has a very in-depth meaning of summarize the behavior of humans today. That is, today's humans heavily rely on their knowledge to make a decision. This is the common practice of today's humans. However if you apply this approach in exploring spiritual things, it won't work. Just as explained above, you don't have unlimited time to figure things out using your science. The only left for you to get to the truth of your own salvation is by trusting what has already been said by other humans. Or else there is absolutely no way for you to get to such a truth.

To put it in a more specific way, science can never confirm in your life time whether hell exists or not. If hell is true, the only way left for you to reach this truth is by putting faith in, one way or another, what is already said.

 

[Hawkins]

First of all, spirituality is a horrible modern concept. What matters is religion, not spirituality. And what religion addresses is social questions.

It is actually a scientific concept. Our 3D space is just a small ball in terms of science. Scientists actually consider the possibility of the existence of multiple universe. And quantum physics calculation involve multiple dimension calculations. String theory is an attempt to calculate what could possibly going beyond our 3D realm.

On the other hand, spiritual realm is an ancient suggestion about a realm beyond our 3D space. This suggestion existed long before the emerging of our science.

 

[fschmidt]

First of all, spirituality is a horrible modern concept. What matters is religion, not spirituality. And what religion addresses is social questions.

It is actually a scientific concept. Our 3D space is just a small ball in terms of science. Scientists actually consider the possibility of the existence of multiple universe. And quantum physics calculation involve multiple dimension calculations. String theory is an attempt to calculate what could possibly going beyond our 3D realm.

On the other hand, spiritual realm is an ancient suggestion about a realm beyond our 3D space. This suggestion existed long before the emerging of our science.

Spirituality includes more than just mythology. It includes personal emotional experiences.

String theory is a scientific mythology with little more backing evidence than Genesis. I am not terribly interested in mythology, but at least Genesis has some good moral stories.

The multi-dimensional models of quantum physics have little predictive value, only explanatory value which doesn't count in my opinion. In contrast, general relativity's view of bent space-time has predictive value and has been confirmed experimentally. This makes it a useful way of viewing the world.