Zone1 You and everyone you've ever known will live FOREVER in paradise with God!

[The Irish Ram]

In the Modern English Version, Matthew 7:21-23 says:

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works in Your name?’ 23 But then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice evil.’​

It does not say "those who follow Jesus will go to Heaven and, conversely, those who don't will face judgment and damnation." You can decide to believe that's what God really meant but imho that's an arrogant move. To me it says what it says.

I'm not making a point. You're saying things that you say are in the Bible and I have not yet seen them there. One possibility is that you haven't finished explaining what ur saying. I can be patient. Please bear in mind that there are a lot of folks that make up things that they've decided that God really meant to put in the Bible but He forgot. I don't go that route and I don't think you do either. Please help me understand what you're referring to. Maybe u'll find a better passage or maybe you'll clarify what you're saying.

Like I said, I can be patient.

Christ was referring to men who had seen Him work miracles and were able to preform miracles using Christ's method without being a follower. The disciples preformed miracles also. They were signs for a specific time. According to prophesy we will be seeing signs and wonders being preformed again in the End Times. Also without the blessing of Christ...
God doesn't forget about what is in the Bible and why. He dots every I and crosses every T. There is layer upon layer in the Bible, even a computer code that depends on every letter being where it is suppose to be.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I don't know. However, Heaven is where we hope to go (as opposed to Hell) while we wait for God's kingdom on the new Earth mentioned in Revelation 21. Thereafter, ALL will be with God on the new Earth.

Have faith in God, my brother. He loves you. He created you. He understands our shortcomings and that's why he came to us through Christ and sacrificed himself for us. He is merciful and wants that all of us can be perfect and life in eternity with him.

All of those in Heaven are coming back. Not to a new earth, but to prevent man from destroying all life on earth. Christ remains here the next time He shows up. In Israel, as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. The new heaven and earth come much later...

 

[K9Buck]

You said that "those who follow Jesus will go to Heaven and, conversely, those who don't will face judgment and damnation" was in the Bible. I asked where. You said Matthew 7:21-23. I looked and didn't see it there and I quoted the passage. Like, you can't be adding things to the Bible so what's up?

It's important to me that when we say something's in the Bible that it's really there. I realize that this is not important to many very good people & if I'm wasting your time I apologize and I'm willing to step back.

Well, let me ask you.

What happens to people when they die?

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, he did. But that is irrelevant to the Catholic Church

It is quite relevant. From the time of Peter, the Church has been made up of little assemblies. Does your present assembly acknowledge Peter as the rock?

 

[The Irish Ram]

But doesn't the verse say that Peter is the rock and Jesus is building his church on that rock?

Look at all the churches that Paul started, and the problems they all had save one. I admire Peter, but have no need of a Pope. Christ's followers are His Bride. He is my Rock. I am well satisfied...

 

[K9Buck]

Look at all the churches that Paul started, and the problems they all had save one. I admire Peter, but have no need of a Pope. Christ's followers are His Bride. He is my Rock. I am well satisfied...

Finally we agree on something. God bless you, my sister, for not getting hateful with me as so many others have.

 

[The Irish Ram]

The passage you referred to did not say that our "bodies will be our own". What it did say was "Behold, I am making all things new.” Please, let's not "improve" the sacred text.

I said our bodies will be our own. I didn't quote any scripture in that post. But I can:
1 Corinthians 15:53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
Christ makes all things new because we become new creatures in Christ. It is not referring to our mortal physical bodies. We don't change into a different physical being like Big Foot or Nessie. It refers to our spirit and soul being renewed or... born again, anew...
The Bible says that we will be like Christ. Christ was resurrected in His own body, and He still has the scars to prove it.

No need for me to improve on anything. It's perfectly clear all by itself...

 

[The Irish Ram]

Finally we agree on something. God bless you, my sister, for not getting hateful with me as so many others have.

I don't hate you. You are my brother and I want you seated at the table with the rest of us.
Peter and Paul didn't always agree either, but they loved each other...

 

[K9Buck]

On another note, Peter was never a "pope". Can any of you envision Peter doing this during his ministry? Me neither.

 

[K9Buck]

I don't hate you. You are my brother and I want you seated at the table with the rest of us.
Peter and Paul didn't always agree either, but they loved each other...

Beautifully said!

 

[The Irish Ram]

On another note, Peter was never a "pope". Can any of you envision Peter doing this during his ministry? Me neither.


View attachment 759279

lol. No, I cannot...

 

[frigidweirdo]

I know this because GOD told us through his word. Rejoice and be happy knowing that your suffering is temporary and that, in the end, you will be in paradise with all of your loved ones, including your animal companions, FOREVERE!

John 6:39 esv
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

This is my understanding. When people die they either go to be with God in Heaven or they go to a place of judgment for correction, purification, and restoration known as the "Lake of Fire".

On the last day, Jesus will resurrect ALL and then ALL will be given to God and they will live WITH GOD FOREVER!

John 12:32 esv
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 esv
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.

Revelation 21:3-5 esv
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,[b] and God himself will be with them as their God.[c] 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

I know that people can fly on broomsticks because JK Rowling told us through her word.
It's literally written that this is possible in A BOOK. So it must be true.

 

[onefour1]

The proper translation is that they will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come. At the conclusion of the ages, however, ALL will be with God.

αἰῶνι is translated both as "age" and as "world". The word itself in an ancient Greek to English dictionary has the following meaning:

LSJ 1940​

ἀϊών Dor. for ἠϊών.

αἰών ῶνος, ὁ, Ion. and Ep. also ἡ, as in Pi. P. 4.186, E. Ph. 1484 ; apocop. acc. αἰῶ, like Ποσειδῶ, restored by Ahrens (from AB 363) in A. Ch. 350 ; (properly αἰϝών, cf. aevum, v. αἰεί) : — period of existence (τὸ τέλος τὸ περιέχον τὸν τῆς ἑκάστου ζωῆς χρόνον… αἰὼν ἑκάστου κέκληται Arist. Cael. 279a25) ; lifetime, life, ψυχή τε καὶ αἰών Il. 16.453 ; ἐκ δ' αἰ. πέφαται Il. 19.27 ; μηδέ τοι αἰ. φθινέτω Od. 5.160 ; λείπει τινά Il. 5.685 ; ἀπ' αἰῶνος νέος ὤλεο (Zenod. νέον) 24.725 ; τελευτᾶν τὸν αἰῶνα Hdt. 1.32, etc. ; αἰῶνος στερεῖν τινά A. Pr. 862 ; αἰῶνα διοιχνεῖν Id. Eu. 315 ; συνδιατρίβειν Cratin. 1 ; αἰ. Αἰακιδᾶν, periphr. for the Aeacidae, S. Aj. 645 s.v.l. ; ἀπέπνευσεν αἰῶνα E. Fr. 801 ; ἐμὸν κατ' αἰῶνα A. Th. 219.
age, generation, αἰ. ἐς τρίτον ib. 744 ; ὁ μέλλων αἰών posterity, D. 18.199, cf. Pl. Ax. 370c.
one΄s life, destiny, lot, S. Tr. 34, E. Andr. 1215, Fr. 30, etc.
long space of time, age, αἰὼν γίγνεται ΄tis an age, Men. 536.5 ; esp. with Preps., ἀπ' αἰῶνος of old, Hes. Th. 609, Ev. Luc. 1.70 ; οἱ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰ. Ῥωμαῖοι DC. 63.20 ; δι' αἰῶνος perpetually, A. Ch. 26, Eu. 563 ; all one΄s life long, S. El. 1024 ; δι' αἰῶνος μακροῦ, ἀπαύστου, A. Supp. 582, 574 ; τὸν δι' αἰ. χρόνον for ever, Id. Ag. 554 ; εἰς ἅπαντα τὸν αἰ. Lycurg. 106, Isoc. 10.62 ; εἰς τὸν αἰ. LXX Ge. 3.23, al., DS. 21.17, Ev. Jo. 8.35, Ps.-Luc. Philopatr. 17 ; εἰς αἰῶνα αἰῶνος LXX Ps. 131 (132).14 ; ἐξ αἰῶνος καὶ ἕως αἰῶνος ib. Je. 7.7 ; ἐπ' αἰ. ib. Ex. 15.18 ; ἕως αἰῶνος ib. 1Ki. 1.22, al. ; — without a Prep., τὸν ἅπαντα αἰ. Arist. Cael. 279a22 ; τὸν αἰῶνα Lycurg. 62, Epicur. Ep. 1 p. 8U. ; eternity, opp. χρόνος, Pl. Ti. 37d, cf. Metrod. Fr. 37, Ph. 1.496, 619, Plot. 3.7.5, etc. ; τοὺς ὑπὲρ τοῦ αἰῶνος φόβους Epicur. Sent. 20.
space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ὁ αἰὼν οὗτος this present world, opp. ὁ μέλλων, Ev. Matt. 13.22, cf. Ep. Rom. 12.2 ; ὁ νῦν αἰ. 1 Ep. Tim. 6.17, 2 Ep. Tim. 4.10 ; — hence in pl., the ages, i.e. eternity, Phld. D. 3 Fr. 84 ; εἰς πάντας τοὺς αἰ. LXX To. 13.4 ; εἰς τοὺς αἰ. ib. Si. 45.24, al., Ep. Rom. 1.25, etc. ; εἰς τοὺς αἰ. τῶν αἰώνων LXX 4 Ma. 18.24, Ep. Phil. 4.20, etc. ; ἀπὸ τῶν αἰ., πρὸ τῶν αἰ., Ep. Eph. 3.9, 1 Cor. 2.7 ; τὰ τέλη τῶν αἰ. ib. 10.11. Αἰών, ὁ, personified, Αἰὼν Χρόνου παῖς E. Heracl. 900 (lyr.), cf. Corp.Herm. 11, etc. ; as title of various divine beings, Dam. Pr. 151, al. ; esp. = Persian Zervan, Suid. s.v. Ἡραΐσκος. Pythag., = 10, Theol.Ar. 59.
spinal marrow (perh. regarded as seat of life), h.Merc. 42, 119, Pi. Fr. 111, Hp. Epid. 7.122 ; perh. also Il. 19.27.

Accordingly it has many meanings: period of existence, lifetime, life, age, generation, posterity, one's life, destiny, lot, long space of time, age, an age, of old, perpetually, all one's life long, for ever, eternity, space of time, epoch, age, world, the ages, eternity, and spinal marrow (regarded as seat of life).

Who is to say that those who translated it as age or ages got the correct meaning? Then again who is to say they did not? However, you cannot discredit the translation of the KJV as being incorrect simply because another translator translated it differently. The true meaning could very well be, "in this world or in the world to come." This leads to the interesting question of what is an age? What are we to understand from the Greek when its translation of the word αἰῶνι in Greek to the word age in English? The real question is what exactly did the original writer, Matthew, mean? I don't know very many people who use the word, "age" a ton. Dictionary.com has the following meaning for "age".

age​

[ eyj ]SHOW IPA

---

noun
1. the length of time during which a being or thing has existed; length of life or existence to the time spoken of or referred to:trees of unknown age; His age is 20 years.
2. a period of human life, measured by years from birth, usually marked by a certain stage or degree of mental or physical development and involving legal responsibility and capacity:

If we use this definition, ie the lifetime or existence of of a being, then the translation of the scripture would have the meaning of, "in this lifetime or existence and in the lifetime or existence to come". This to me implies that it means to be forever and ever since our next lifetime or existence will be one of immortality and thus be forever and ever.

 

[K9Buck]

αἰῶνι is translated both as "age" and as "world". The word itself in an ancient Greek to English dictionary has the following meaning:

LSJ 1940​

ἀϊών Dor. for ἠϊών.

αἰών ῶνος, ὁ, Ion. and Ep. also ἡ, as in Pi. P. 4.186, E. Ph. 1484 ; apocop. acc. αἰῶ, like Ποσειδῶ, restored by Ahrens (from AB 363) in A. Ch. 350 ; (properly αἰϝών, cf. aevum, v. αἰεί) : — period of existence (τὸ τέλος τὸ περιέχον τὸν τῆς ἑκάστου ζωῆς χρόνον… αἰὼν ἑκάστου κέκληται Arist. Cael. 279a25) ; lifetime, life, ψυχή τε καὶ αἰών Il. 16.453 ; ἐκ δ' αἰ. πέφαται Il. 19.27 ; μηδέ τοι αἰ. φθινέτω Od. 5.160 ; λείπει τινά Il. 5.685 ; ἀπ' αἰῶνος νέος ὤλεο (Zenod. νέον) 24.725 ; τελευτᾶν τὸν αἰῶνα Hdt. 1.32, etc. ; αἰῶνος στερεῖν τινά A. Pr. 862 ; αἰῶνα διοιχνεῖν Id. Eu. 315 ; συνδιατρίβειν Cratin. 1 ; αἰ. Αἰακιδᾶν, periphr. for the Aeacidae, S. Aj. 645 s.v.l. ; ἀπέπνευσεν αἰῶνα E. Fr. 801 ; ἐμὸν κατ' αἰῶνα A. Th. 219.
age, generation, αἰ. ἐς τρίτον ib. 744 ; ὁ μέλλων αἰών posterity, D. 18.199, cf. Pl. Ax. 370c.
one΄s life, destiny, lot, S. Tr. 34, E. Andr. 1215, Fr. 30, etc.
long space of time, age, αἰὼν γίγνεται ΄tis an age, Men. 536.5 ; esp. with Preps., ἀπ' αἰῶνος of old, Hes. Th. 609, Ev. Luc. 1.70 ; οἱ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰ. Ῥωμαῖοι DC. 63.20 ; δι' αἰῶνος perpetually, A. Ch. 26, Eu. 563 ; all one΄s life long, S. El. 1024 ; δι' αἰῶνος μακροῦ, ἀπαύστου, A. Supp. 582, 574 ; τὸν δι' αἰ. χρόνον for ever, Id. Ag. 554 ; εἰς ἅπαντα τὸν αἰ. Lycurg. 106, Isoc. 10.62 ; εἰς τὸν αἰ. LXX Ge. 3.23, al., DS. 21.17, Ev. Jo. 8.35, Ps.-Luc. Philopatr. 17 ; εἰς αἰῶνα αἰῶνος LXX Ps. 131 (132).14 ; ἐξ αἰῶνος καὶ ἕως αἰῶνος ib. Je. 7.7 ; ἐπ' αἰ. ib. Ex. 15.18 ; ἕως αἰῶνος ib. 1Ki. 1.22, al. ; — without a Prep., τὸν ἅπαντα αἰ. Arist. Cael. 279a22 ; τὸν αἰῶνα Lycurg. 62, Epicur. Ep. 1 p. 8U. ; eternity, opp. χρόνος, Pl. Ti. 37d, cf. Metrod. Fr. 37, Ph. 1.496, 619, Plot. 3.7.5, etc. ; τοὺς ὑπὲρ τοῦ αἰῶνος φόβους Epicur. Sent. 20.
space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ὁ αἰὼν οὗτος this present world, opp. ὁ μέλλων, Ev. Matt. 13.22, cf. Ep. Rom. 12.2 ; ὁ νῦν αἰ. 1 Ep. Tim. 6.17, 2 Ep. Tim. 4.10 ; — hence in pl., the ages, i.e. eternity, Phld. D. 3 Fr. 84 ; εἰς πάντας τοὺς αἰ. LXX To. 13.4 ; εἰς τοὺς αἰ. ib. Si. 45.24, al., Ep. Rom. 1.25, etc. ; εἰς τοὺς αἰ. τῶν αἰώνων LXX 4 Ma. 18.24, Ep. Phil. 4.20, etc. ; ἀπὸ τῶν αἰ., πρὸ τῶν αἰ., Ep. Eph. 3.9, 1 Cor. 2.7 ; τὰ τέλη τῶν αἰ. ib. 10.11. Αἰών, ὁ, personified, Αἰὼν Χρόνου παῖς E. Heracl. 900 (lyr.), cf. Corp.Herm. 11, etc. ; as title of various divine beings, Dam. Pr. 151, al. ; esp. = Persian Zervan, Suid. s.v. Ἡραΐσκος. Pythag., = 10, Theol.Ar. 59.
spinal marrow (perh. regarded as seat of life), h.Merc. 42, 119, Pi. Fr. 111, Hp. Epid. 7.122 ; perh. also Il. 19.27.

Accordingly it has many meanings: period of existence, lifetime, life, age, generation, posterity, one's life, destiny, lot, long space of time, age, an age, of old, perpetually, all one's life long, for ever, eternity, space of time, epoch, age, world, the ages, eternity, and spinal marrow (regarded as seat of life).

Who is to say that those who translated it as age or ages got the correct meaning? Then again who is to say they did not? However, you cannot discredit the translation of the KJV as being incorrect simply because another translator translated it differently. The true meaning could very well be, "in this world or in the world to come." This leads to the interesting question of what is an age? What are we to understand from the Greek when its translation of the word αἰῶνι in Greek to the word age in English? The real question is what exactly did the original writer, Matthew, mean? I don't know very many people who use the word, "age" a ton. Dictionary.com has the following meaning for "age".

age​

[ eyj ]SHOW IPA

---

noun
1. the length of time during which a being or thing has existed; length of life or existence to the time spoken of or referred to:trees of unknown age; His age is 20 years.
2. a period of human life, measured by years from birth, usually marked by a certain stage or degree of mental or physical development and involving legal responsibility and capacity:

If we use this definition, ie the lifetime or existence of of a being, then the translation of the scripture would have the meaning of, "in this lifetime or existence and in the lifetime or existence to come". This to implies that it means to be forever and ever since our next lifetime or existence will be one of immortality and thus be forever and ever.

Thank you for your informed and polite response. One reason I know that the KJV is wrong is due to the plethora of verses that tell us that all mankind will be with God. If people truly do go to a forever Hell then dozens of verses are wrong.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I know that people can fly on broomsticks because JK Rowling told us through her word.
It's literally written that this is possible in A BOOK. So it must be true.

Did the book correctly tell us 2,500 times what was going to happen in the future?
That is an ability that mankind doesn't possess...

 

[frigidweirdo]

Did the book correctly tell us 2,500 times what was going to happen in the future?
That is an ability that mankind doesn't possess...

No, it did not.

Unless of course you have evidence to the contrary which isn't vague nonsense like "it will rain on a Tuesday"

 

[The Irish Ram]

Christ would be sold out for 30 pieces of silver over 800 years before it happened, AND that that same money would end up paying for a potters field. It did.
Israel would be born in a day. It was on May 14, 1948.
There are so many.
Jesus fulfilled over 300 of them. 27 in one day. The mathematical probability of one man fulfilling just 8 of them is 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. If I covered Texas in silver dollars and marked just one of them. You finding that one silver dollar, blindfolded, on the first try would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000.
Prophesied 200 years before he did it, a man named Cyrus would conquer Babylon.
That the city of Tyre would become nothing more than a rock sticking out of the sea where fishermen would dry out their nets. I have seen pictures of the fishing nets on that rock after Tyre was destroyed.
David prophesied that Christ would be crucified, before anyone had ever even heard of crucifixion.
Specific enough? Do I need to keep going?

 

[onefour1]

Source, please?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Doctrine and Covenants 76
SECTION 76

A vision given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, February 16, 1832. Prefacing the record of this vision, Joseph Smith’s history states: “Upon my return from Amherst conference, I resumed the translation of the Scriptures. From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled. It appeared self-evident from what truths were left, that if God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body the term ‘Heaven,’ as intended for the Saints’ eternal home, must include more kingdoms than one. Accordingly, … while translating St. John’s Gospel, myself and Elder Rigdon saw the following vision.” At the time this vision was given, the Prophet was translating John 5:29.

1–4, The Lord is God; 5–10, The mysteries of the kingdom will be revealed to all the faithful; 11–17, All will come forth in the resurrection of the just or the unjust; 18–24, The inhabitants of many worlds are begotten sons and daughters unto God through the Atonement of Jesus Christ; 25–29, An angel of God fell and became the devil; 30–49, Sons of perdition suffer eternal damnation; all others gain some degree of salvation; 50–70, The glory and reward of exalted beings in the celestial kingdom is described; 71–80, Those who will inherit the terrestrial kingdom are described; 81–113, The status of those in the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial glories is explained; 114–19, The faithful may see and understand the mysteries of God’s kingdom by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior.
2 Great is his wisdom, marvelous are his ways, and the extent of his doings none can find out.
3 His purposes fail not, neither are there any who can stay his hand.
4 From eternity to eternity he is the same, and his years never fail.
5 For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.
6 Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.
7 And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.
8 Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.
9 And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught.
10 For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.
11 We, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, being in the Spirit on the sixteenth day of February, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty-two—
12 By the power of the Spirit our eyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened, so as to see and understand the things of God—
13 Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning;
14 Of whom we bear record; and the record which we bear is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Son, whom we saw and with whom we conversed in the heavenly vision.
15 For while we were doing the work of translation, which the Lord had appointed unto us, we came to the twenty-ninth verse of the fifth chapter of John, which was given unto us as follows—
16 Speaking of the resurrection of the dead, concerning those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man:
17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.
18 Now this caused us to marvel, for it was given unto us of the Spirit.
19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.
20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;
21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.
22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—
29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.
30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.
40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—
45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;
46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;
47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;
48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.
49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.
50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.
89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.
91 And thus we saw the glory of the terrestrial which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion.
92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;
93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever.
94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;
95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.
96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.
97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;
107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.
109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.
113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;
115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;
116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;
117 To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;
118 That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.
119 And to God and the Lamb be glory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

 

[expat_panama]

Do you agree that, upon one's physical death, one either goes to Heaven or to Hell?

thank you for your excellent question.

Yes, I believe in Heaven and Hell because the Bible says Heaven and Hell exist, and it does not get into a lot of particulars about the nature of Hell --except to mention maybe there's fire there and we will be judged. It's also my mode to regard what's in the Bible as being for all and what I believe that does not disagree w/ the Bible but is not in the Bible and being my own personal invention and may or may not be useful to others.

What I got from the Bible is that if we do wrong we get sent to Hell, and as soon as we're judged as having wised up we can leave. I understand that others may have different views.

 

[K9Buck]

What I got from the Bible is that if we do wrong we get sent to Hell, and as soon as we're judged as having wised up we can leave.

I believe that may very well be true because I don't believe that a loving and merciful father has a sadistic need to continue to punish his children FOREVER, as many believe.