Women Giving up Seats on American Airliners for Religious Accomodation?

[SassyIrishLass]

?????????? Why do you have an avatar with a dog pooping on the American Flag?? GLASNOST

I was inspired to action by your suggestion that people should put their dirty feet on 'American flag' flip-flops.

Sorry. I never suggested any such thing.

Especially since mine is an animated gif.

Flip Flops are meant to be worn - Dogs are meant to eat and shit.

gifs can't be worn. YOU are the first to complain about my flipflops and I have had them there since 2008. We both know you are not begin honest.
BTW I am sorry your feet are filthy. Mine are sparkling clean.........maybe you should wash yours.

Also I imagine many here would disagree with you about what dogs are meant for.....starting with Coyote

Besides, I like your sparkly flip flops and my dogs would like them too...but I fear they would chew them

Actually - the many avatars of dogs pooping on things are getting old and tiresome. No creativity.

Much like that clown thingy, that got worn out also

 

[SassyIrishLass]

gifs can't be worn.

So you think intentionally squashing the American flag beneath your feet is less demeaning than a dog without conscience shitting on it?

YOU are the first to complain about my flipflops

YOU are the first to complain about my dog. Anyway, it was you who came to me. Are you perhaps an underachiever? A inferiority complex? A chip on your shoulder?

I think dogs have conscience, but..it's the human component that creates the memes.

Best dog meme evah!!!!!

 

[Divine Wind]

How would YOU handle this? The airlines need some help here. And I'm not against TRYING to accommodate preferences.

Ask them when they check-in. Bumping passengers for religious reasons isn't cool. If they don't like their seat, they are free to catch the next flight.

 

[Coyote]

Buddhists Monks, Orthodox Jews and Muslims all have certain religious restrictions concerning their conduct with women.
That is a fact.

They all have religious mandates that require them not to be seated next to non-family females.
That is a fact.

The OP gave two articles whereby these religious rules caused some consternation for passengers.
That is a fact.

They were not all Muslims.
That too is a fact.

Pakistani Muslims wear a variety of colors - if you google "Pakistani Imam" - you will find they typically wear an over robe and cover their heads. None of the pictures showed them in bright orange shirts but it's certainly possible. Two such wearing distinctively identical bright orange shirts is a little less believable because it is not a "uniform" of Imams. Buddhists shave their heads, Muslim religious men where a hat or some other cover. They also never refer to themselves as "monks".

Yet, there are those working super hard to insist that these are Muslims despite the fact that WHAT religion they are isn't the issue. The issue is how this was handled by the airline.

 

[Coyote]

How would YOU handle this? The airlines need some help here. And I'm not against TRYING to accommodate preferences.

Ask them when they check-in. Bumping passengers for religious reasons isn't cool. If they don't like their seat, they are free to catch the next flight.

Agree - there are many ways it could have been handled better. The onus is really on a passenger, who has special needs, to let the airline know of this when they make the booking, not at the gate. Passengers can always be ASKED if they wish to accommodate voluntarily (maybe even provided an incentive) - but should not be forced.

 

[Tilly]

Hmmmm....so...a couple of Muslims (that aren't bothering anyone) must be treated differently than a couple of Buddhists (who aren't bothering anyone) or a couple of Orthodox Jews (that aren't bothering anyone)...

Yes.

But I would tell each of them to piss off because we don't forcibly move women anywhere at the whimes of any man.

The people with the weird issue need to adjust to the rest of us. Not the other way around.

I agree in general - I don't have a problem with being asked, nicely if I would - being forced though - BAD MANAGEMENT on the airline's part.

That's the obvious answer.

But I posed this before and I didn't see anyone address this ....

how do we know these paki's were monks?

Is this story just from the woman who was moved and is she just basing it off what the gate agent told her?

I worked at an airline during summers in college. Gate agent is no joke. And I know what happens when Arab or African men get frustrated at the gate. They yell and bully until their needs are met.

So how are we basing this Paki monk idea? Did anyone talk to these paki's? I imagine it's pretty easy to move a woman's seat to stop two men from yelling at you while you are trying to ensure everyone is boarded and the flight leaves the gate on time.

If you actually read the OP -- you would find that's how United Airlines explained the situation to the woman. She made up nothing. You have a hard time with this thread because facts in evidence don't fit your EXPECTED narrative. Muslim clerics do not LOOK like Buddhist clerics.

I really don't understand your reluctance to accept the narrative. And NO --- we'll never get the two orange-robed guys to give a statement. Just go with it.

The only FACT in this matter is that it is only the woman referring to them as "Monks".

Since Pakistani Imams DO often wear robes of a burnt orange color, and the woman is not necessarily well-versed in the nomenclature involved, it is entirely within reason that she simply did not know what to call them. Since Pakistan is overwhelmingly Muslim, it is hardly a stretch to think they might be Muslim.

I agree. I believe there are only about 2000 Buddhists left in Pakistan.
Muslim men commonly wear umber and orange colours.

 

[flacaltenn]

Men need to stop thinking with their penises. I mean come on. It's old. Everything is not about what sex you are.

Says Kat showing off hot sexy legs. LOL

I have legs. Men do too. But Touche'

But hey, would that mean I should lose my seat?

No... But you might get a volunteers to sit next to them.. Uh.. I mean you...

 

[flacaltenn]

Because from the airline's POV, they can move the woman, presumably to an empty seat, or they can try to find 2 seats next to a man, and move the monks and the other 2 passengers. The first choice is a lot simpler.

You are making making the same mistake here as many others by assuming that the woman's referring to them as monks MAKES them monks.

That was simply her word to describe them and we have no way of knowing if she knows enough about Islam to know what to call them.

You are making the same mistake as many other posters have by not actually reading the article.

The woman didn't identify them as "monks".

I read not only the article but similar accounts from other news agencies. The very title of the article QUOTES her as saying she was forced to move for men she described as Monks..

There has been absolutely no confirmation that they are Buddhist.
.

If you read the article, you'd know that she did not actually meet the men in question, and was informed that they were monks by the airline representative at the gate.

Who know that how? There is still nothing definitive about their identity.

Why am I reminded of the recent Mall shooter who the desperate press wanted to be Hispanic?

One last time-- then I can't deal with the belligerence of reading crap in because of your trigger biases.

SHE did not identify them as monks. The AIRLINE did. Airlines probably see a lot of monks and Imans. Might be better at it than most people including you. Imans wear head coverings. MONKS do not..

There will never be an interview unless this goes to court. I'm not gonna allow any bias other than the facts. Because, as a raised Jew, I know ugly stereotypes when I see one. And cannot allow totally off the wall sliming of people as MY tribe has been slimed.

And it is UGLY --- when it's on display... You COULD be right. But right now -- you are not. .Deal with it..

 

[StLucieBengal]

You are making making the same mistake here as many others by assuming that the woman's referring to them as monks MAKES them monks.

That was simply her word to describe them and we have no way of knowing if she knows enough about Islam to know what to call them.

You are making the same mistake as many other posters have by not actually reading the article.

The woman didn't identify them as "monks".

I read not only the article but similar accounts from other news agencies. The very title of the article QUOTES her as saying she was forced to move for men she described as Monks..

There has been absolutely no confirmation that they are Buddhist.
.

If you read the article, you'd know that she did not actually meet the men in question, and was informed that they were monks by the airline representative at the gate.

Which means a $15/hr gate agent is who everyone is believing that in no way were these paki's Muslims?

It's reasonable to wonder if they are Muslims and really this whole story is a mess until someone puts a microphone In front of this gate agent.

Don't you think it's likely that the monks in question would have identified themselves to the agent, explained their beliefs in their request for different seating?

No. I have actually worked as a gate agent. They tell you they want to switch then when you tell them it's not possible they tell you it's a (insert reason) given that they are from Pakistan religious reasons were most likely used.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

You are making making the same mistake here as many others by assuming that the woman's referring to them as monks MAKES them monks.

That was simply her word to describe them and we have no way of knowing if she knows enough about Islam to know what to call them.

You are making the same mistake as many other posters have by not actually reading the article.

The woman didn't identify them as "monks".

I read not only the article but similar accounts from other news agencies. The very title of the article QUOTES her as saying she was forced to move for men she described as Monks..

There has been absolutely no confirmation that they are Buddhist.
.

If you read the article, you'd know that she did not actually meet the men in question, and was informed that they were monks by the airline representative at the gate.

Who know that how? There is still nothing definitive about their identity.

Why am I reminded of the recent Mall shooter who the desperate press wanted to be Hispanic?

One last time-- then I can't deal with the belligerence of reading crap in because of your trigger biases.

SHE did not identify them as monks. The AIRLINE did. Airlines probably see a lot of monks and Imans. Might be better at it than most people including you. Imans wear head coverings. MONKS do not..

There will never be an interview unless this goes to court. I'm not gonna allow any bias other than the facts. Because, as a raised Jew, I know ugly stereotypes when I see one. And cannot allow totally off the wall sliming of people as MY tribe has been slimed.

And it is UGLY --- when it's on display... You COULD be right. But right now -- you are not. .Deal with it..

The misogyny inherent in these Pakistani men demanding that a woman vacate her seat is the true ugliness here.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Yet, there are those working super hard to insist that these are Muslims

The only ones actually insisting anything here are those insisting they are NOT Muslim, and this despite the fact the absolutely overwhelming majority of Pakistanis are just that.

It's just like the recent mall shooting when so many people insisted the perp was Hispanic, and even after he was proven to be Islamic, absolutely refused to admit they were wrong while continuing on and on and on with their blathering.

 

[Two Thumbs]

How would YOU handle this? The airlines need some help here. And I'm not against TRYING to accommodate preferences.

informed the monks that they should have bought seats together and that their tickets are not refundable at this time but we have open seats on another flight.

worst case she gets moved to 1st class

 

[Coyote]

You are making the same mistake as many other posters have by not actually reading the article.

The woman didn't identify them as "monks".

I read not only the article but similar accounts from other news agencies. The very title of the article QUOTES her as saying she was forced to move for men she described as Monks..

There has been absolutely no confirmation that they are Buddhist.
.

If you read the article, you'd know that she did not actually meet the men in question, and was informed that they were monks by the airline representative at the gate.

Which means a $15/hr gate agent is who everyone is believing that in no way were these paki's Muslims?

It's reasonable to wonder if they are Muslims and really this whole story is a mess until someone puts a microphone In front of this gate agent.

Don't you think it's likely that the monks in question would have identified themselves to the agent, explained their beliefs in their request for different seating?

No. I have actually worked as a gate agent. They tell you they want to switch then when you tell them it's not possible they tell you it's a (insert reason) given that they are from Pakistan religious reasons were most likely used.

No one would normally call a Pakastani a monk nor would they normally wear identical orange garb. Monks are typically associated with shaved heads. I think folks are struggling hard to make it Islamic.

But does it MATTER whether or not it is? Would you react differently if it was a Muslim than a Buddhist or an Orthodox Jew?

Muslim's fly frequently, yet you rarely hear of an issue.

 

[charwin95]

Interesting story today about a woman who was bumped from her seat, because 2 Pakistani monks did not not want to be seated next to a woman. This is the type of "religious accommodation" that is dangerous when it conflicts with American values about equality. Not serious if handled quietly and VOLUNTARILY. Plenty of room on a airliner to make these adjustments. But to bump a Million Mile flyer because a couple of guys are no fun and don't want to adhere to OUR culture --- is a bit disturbing.

Before anyone jumps to conclusion about it being a Pakistani thing, READ THE 2nd link.. It's not..

Calif. woman: Airline changed my seat to honor Pakistani monks' religious beliefs

Not cool..

I voluntarily gave up my first class seats a couple times. One to an army lieutenant just coming back from Afghanistan still wearing his military uniform. Second to a pregnant women with a cast on her leg.

Which regards to the case of these 2 monks.......... I'm sorry I have to say no.

 

[Coyote]

Yet, there are those working super hard to insist that these are Muslims

The only ones actually insisting anything here are those insisting they are NOT Muslim, and this despite the fact the absolutely overwhelming majority of Pakistanis are just that.

It's just like the recent mall shooting when so many people insisted the perp was Hispanic, and even after he was proven to be Islamic, absolutely refused to admit they were wrong while continuing on and on and on with their blathering.

Ok. Let me ask you a simple question - it's straightforward, so let's not bother with insulting each other.

Would it matter if the person was Muslim, Buddhist or Orthodox Jew?

Given: All three (though only Buddhist Monks) have religious restrictions in how they can relate to women.

Given: Muslims obviously fly as frequently as any other religious demographic, yet instances like this are really quite uncommon.

In my opinion - it doesn't. The issue should have been resolved at the point at which reservations were made, just like special diets are or any other special accommodations. Then it's up to the airline to make an accommodation (without inconveniencing other passengers) or not. Do you agree or disagree?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Yes.

But I would tell each of them to piss off because we don't forcibly move women anywhere at the whimes of any man.

The people with the weird issue need to adjust to the rest of us. Not the other way around.

I agree in general - I don't have a problem with being asked, nicely if I would - being forced though - BAD MANAGEMENT on the airline's part.

That's the obvious answer.

But I posed this before and I didn't see anyone address this ....

how do we know these paki's were monks?

Is this story just from the woman who was moved and is she just basing it off what the gate agent told her?

I worked at an airline during summers in college. Gate agent is no joke. And I know what happens when Arab or African men get frustrated at the gate. They yell and bully until their needs are met.

So how are we basing this Paki monk idea? Did anyone talk to these paki's? I imagine it's pretty easy to move a woman's seat to stop two men from yelling at you while you are trying to ensure everyone is boarded and the flight leaves the gate on time.

If you actually read the OP -- you would find that's how United Airlines explained the situation to the woman. She made up nothing. You have a hard time with this thread because facts in evidence don't fit your EXPECTED narrative. Muslim clerics do not LOOK like Buddhist clerics.

I really don't understand your reluctance to accept the narrative. And NO --- we'll never get the two orange-robed guys to give a statement. Just go with it.

The only FACT in this matter is that it is only the woman referring to them as "Monks".

Since Pakistani Imams DO often wear robes of a burnt orange color, and the woman is not necessarily well-versed in the nomenclature involved, it is entirely within reason that she simply did not know what to call them. Since Pakistan is overwhelmingly Muslim, it is hardly a stretch to think they might be Muslim.

I agree. I believe there are only about 2000 Buddhists left in Pakistan.
Muslim men commonly wear umber and orange colours.

View attachment 91913

In all my life I have never seen a Muslim man dressed in orange. White but not orange. You're really reaching here. The men in the article were Buddhist Monks. MONKS! M - O - N - K - S -------> MONKS.

 

[Coyote]

Interesting story today about a woman who was bumped from her seat, because 2 Pakistani monks did not not want to be seated next to a woman. This is the type of "religious accommodation" that is dangerous when it conflicts with American values about equality. Not serious if handled quietly and VOLUNTARILY. Plenty of room on a airliner to make these adjustments. But to bump a Million Mile flyer because a couple of guys are no fun and don't want to adhere to OUR culture --- is a bit disturbing.

Before anyone jumps to conclusion about it being a Pakistani thing, READ THE 2nd link.. It's not..

Calif. woman: Airline changed my seat to honor Pakistani monks' religious beliefs

Not cool..

I voluntarily gave up my first class seats a couple times. One to an army lieutenant just coming back from Afghanistan still wearing his military uniform. Second to a pregnant women with a cast on her leg.

Which regards to the case of these 2 monks.......... I'm sorry I have to say no.

How about the Orthodox Jew?

I'd consider it, if asked nicely - no hide off my back. But I'd dig in if it was demanded of me.

 

[Papageorgio]

I agree in general - I don't have a problem with being asked, nicely if I would - being forced though - BAD MANAGEMENT on the airline's part.

That's the obvious answer.

But I posed this before and I didn't see anyone address this ....

how do we know these paki's were monks?

Is this story just from the woman who was moved and is she just basing it off what the gate agent told her?

I worked at an airline during summers in college. Gate agent is no joke. And I know what happens when Arab or African men get frustrated at the gate. They yell and bully until their needs are met.

So how are we basing this Paki monk idea? Did anyone talk to these paki's? I imagine it's pretty easy to move a woman's seat to stop two men from yelling at you while you are trying to ensure everyone is boarded and the flight leaves the gate on time.

If you actually read the OP -- you would find that's how United Airlines explained the situation to the woman. She made up nothing. You have a hard time with this thread because facts in evidence don't fit your EXPECTED narrative. Muslim clerics do not LOOK like Buddhist clerics.

I really don't understand your reluctance to accept the narrative. And NO --- we'll never get the two orange-robed guys to give a statement. Just go with it.

The only FACT in this matter is that it is only the woman referring to them as "Monks".

Since Pakistani Imams DO often wear robes of a burnt orange color, and the woman is not necessarily well-versed in the nomenclature involved, it is entirely within reason that she simply did not know what to call them. Since Pakistan is overwhelmingly Muslim, it is hardly a stretch to think they might be Muslim.

I agree. I believe there are only about 2000 Buddhists left in Pakistan.
Muslim men commonly wear umber and orange colours.

View attachment 91913

In all my life I have never seen a Muslim man dressed in orange. White but not orange. You're really reaching here. The men in the article were Buddhist Monks. MONKS! M - O - N - K - S -------> MONKS.

What are you trying to say?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

That's the obvious answer.

But I posed this before and I didn't see anyone address this ....

how do we know these paki's were monks?

Is this story just from the woman who was moved and is she just basing it off what the gate agent told her?

I worked at an airline during summers in college. Gate agent is no joke. And I know what happens when Arab or African men get frustrated at the gate. They yell and bully until their needs are met.

So how are we basing this Paki monk idea? Did anyone talk to these paki's? I imagine it's pretty easy to move a woman's seat to stop two men from yelling at you while you are trying to ensure everyone is boarded and the flight leaves the gate on time.

If you actually read the OP -- you would find that's how United Airlines explained the situation to the woman. She made up nothing. You have a hard time with this thread because facts in evidence don't fit your EXPECTED narrative. Muslim clerics do not LOOK like Buddhist clerics.

I really don't understand your reluctance to accept the narrative. And NO --- we'll never get the two orange-robed guys to give a statement. Just go with it.

The only FACT in this matter is that it is only the woman referring to them as "Monks".

Since Pakistani Imams DO often wear robes of a burnt orange color, and the woman is not necessarily well-versed in the nomenclature involved, it is entirely within reason that she simply did not know what to call them. Since Pakistan is overwhelmingly Muslim, it is hardly a stretch to think they might be Muslim.

I agree. I believe there are only about 2000 Buddhists left in Pakistan.
Muslim men commonly wear umber and orange colours.

View attachment 91913

In all my life I have never seen a Muslim man dressed in orange. White but not orange. You're really reaching here. The men in the article were Buddhist Monks. MONKS! M - O - N - K - S -------> MONKS.

What are you trying to say?

good one.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Interesting story today about a woman who was bumped from her seat, because 2 Pakistani monks did not not want to be seated next to a woman. This is the type of "religious accommodation" that is dangerous when it conflicts with American values about equality. Not serious if handled quietly and VOLUNTARILY. Plenty of room on a airliner to make these adjustments. But to bump a Million Mile flyer because a couple of guys are no fun and don't want to adhere to OUR culture --- is a bit disturbing.

Before anyone jumps to conclusion about it being a Pakistani thing, READ THE 2nd link.. It's not..

Calif. woman: Airline changed my seat to honor Pakistani monks' religious beliefs

Not cool..

I voluntarily gave up my first class seats a couple times. One to an army lieutenant just coming back from Afghanistan still wearing his military uniform. Second to a pregnant women with a cast on her leg.

Which regards to the case of these 2 monks.......... I'm sorry I have to say no.

How about the Orthodox Jew?

I'd consider it, if asked nicely - no hide off my back. But I'd dig in if it was demanded of me.

That reminds me. The last time I heard about someone not wanting to sit next to women on a plane it was an orthodox Jewish man who wrapped himself in a plastic bag. The discussion about it was on USMB. Back then I had never heard of it. For the record - I have never heard of a story about a Muslim that didn't want to sit next to a woman on a plane. It's been frustrating reading post after post of people continuing to claim these guys were Muslims. Does anybody pay attention anymore? It's mind boggling! It feels like we've entered the twilight zone!

No matter what religion a person is if they don't want to sit next to a woman on a plane - that is fine - just ask and most folks will be happy to move. Not a problem.