Wilders banned from Britain. Do you agree?

[elvis]

Dutch MP Geert Wilders was recently invited to the UK to show his film, Fitna, to the House of Lords. As some of you may be aware, Fitna is a highly provocative film that links the Koran to terrorism. Mr Wilders describes the Koran as a "fascist book" and has called for it to be banned.

However, the British Home Office has told him that he will not be allowed to enter the country on security grounds. The peer that invited him, Lord Pearson, has said that he disagrees with the call to ban the book, but that not allowing Mr. Wilders into the country is "appeasing violent Islam".

BBC NEWS | Politics | Dutch MP banned from entering UK

Interestingly, the Dutch Government has protested about one of its MPs being banned from Britain, yet at the same time Mr. Wilders faces prosecution by the Dutch Government for inciting hatred.

Here is a link to the Wiki page about Fitna...

Fitna (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...and below is the film itself. The full film is about 5 minutes longer but the last minutes deal with Dutch issues so for the sake of brevity I've used this shorter version.

Before you view the film, can I point out 3 things.

1. Every Muslim that I know is appalled at what violent Islam calls for.
2. Certain verses of the Koran do appear to be calling Muslims to persecute 'infidels', but there is plenty of inflammatory language in the Old Testament as well.
3. This film shows Eugene Armstrong being beheaded. It will be clear when this moment is coming. I had to close my eyes, but the audio is still disturbing.

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QcDD6-7AN4U&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QcDD6-7AN4U&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

Simple question: Is the banning of Geert Wilders reasonable given that his film was clearly meant to shock, or is it an appalling restriction of freedom in a supposedly democratic country?

It would be nice if (for a change) people could restrict themselves to reasoned argument rather than just name calling. There is so little on this board that doesn't descend into name calling (right vs left, west vs. east, muslim vs non muslim) by the end of the first page, or even in many cases in the OP. The more it happens, the less I want to visit.

Sorry - I'm venting. It's a message board so of course you can all say what you like.

The banning of Geert Wilders is an appalling restriction of freedom. Although it is ironic, that a man who is in favor of restricting free speech (the Koran) gets a dose of his own medicine.

 

[strollingbones]

No he shouldn't be banned. Apparently those countries do not have freedom of speech.

GOD BLESS AMERICA.

BTW, Mark Steyn, Canadian author and political commentator has been summoned to appear in front of two Canadian judicial panels for his comments on Islam.

CANADA'S THOUGHT POLICE - New York Post

you say that like freedom of speech exists here? our news is censored....we have "free speech" zones....sillie me...i remember when this country was a free speech zone....

 

[strollingbones]

i am not for banning ideas or banning people....or books....you simply cannot keep an idea down...no matter how strange of one it is....

 

[Diuretic]

Just one point. Free speech is not an absolute, nor is it licence. You can't, for example, defame someone. There are limits. Defining those limits is where the discussions are centred. So Wilders being stopped from entering the UK is not about "free speech".

 

[strollingbones]

Just one point. Free speech is not an absolute, nor is it licence. You can't, for example, defame someone. There are limits. Defining those limits is where the discussions are centred. So Wilders being stopped from entering the UK is not about "free speech".

the dutch has seen what the muslims can do...ie. van gogh and his murder

perhaps one should think of this more...as wilder trying to warn the rest of europe....banning the koran is impossible...banning religions is impossible...you may however ban religious practices...ie....plural marriage....peyote ceremonies..etc...

 

[Diuretic]

I know this is stating the obvious but most Muslims aren't radical. If they were Britain would have been fucked quite a few years ago. Some Muslims are radical of course. But that's what intelligence services are for. The same folks that watch out for extreme right and left wingers would no doubt be keeping an eye not just on Muslims but other extremist religious groups. I doubt if the Brits need Wilders to tell them anything they don't aready know and more that Wilders knows.

Like any other group in society Muslims have to abide by the secular law of the country. And where their religious practices don't conflict with secular law then there's no problem.

The Brits have got more to fear from Europe than they have British Muslims.

 

[Xenophon]

It's obviously the wrong thing to do.

Appeasing the most violent only makes them more brazen, if they want islam to be accepted as peaceful then they must act peacefully, shouting for death and censorship will win them no points with thinking people, only the fearful respond to that.

The Netherlands is at a crossroads also, it's free open society is totally at odds with the Muslim fundementalists it has allowed to immigrate there.

Oddly enough, France seems to be the only EU state that refuses to cowtow, even forceing the ban on religious symbols in schools and barring the wearing head scarves.

 

[Munin]

Simple question: Is the banning of Geert Wilders reasonable given that his film was clearly meant to shock, or is it an appalling restriction of freedom in a supposedly democratic country?

The UK clearly overreacted:

This is a dutch MP, he has (or should have) a diplomatic status as representative of the dutch people (elected official). He has not committed any crime and should therefor be treated as a normal citizen/politician and be allowed to travel through Europe.

It also shows that islamophobia has contaminated Europe, 50 years ago this (the UK denying access to an MP of the netherlands) would have been unthinkable.

The movie Fitna was also being overreacted towards it (the dutch prime minister was apologizing to muslim countries and warning muslims about the movie, muslim radicals were making death threats against him before they even saw this movie), legally the movie is doing nothing wrong (that was also the opinion of the dutch justice system). You could see it as a documentary about radical muslims and about how Islam is interpretated by a number of muslims.

 

[tigerbob]

Didn't the Brits just decide to boot out a radical Jordanian preacher?

Home Office wins Abu Qatada appeal - Yahoo! News UK

Yeah, I was reading that a couple of days ago. The High Court upheld his appeal as I recall, now the Law Lords (the highest appeal court in the land) has overturned that. However, it still needs to go through Europe (thanks Tony Blair for making British law in many cases subservient to European - would never have happened under Thatcher).

 

[Diuretic]

Didn't the Brits just decide to boot out a radical Jordanian preacher?

Home Office wins Abu Qatada appeal - Yahoo! News UK

Yeah, I was reading that a couple of days ago. The High Court upheld his appeal as I recall, now the Law Lords (the highest appeal court in the land) has overturned that. However, it still needs to go through Europe (thanks Tony Blair for making British law in many cases subservient to European - would never have happened under Thatcher).

I'm no fan of Thatcher, last time I was in the UK was just after the Falklands War and she was riding a wave of jingoism. However it was a big mistake allowing Europe to trump the British legal system and the appeal to the Lords should have been the end of it. This bloke should get the boot back to Jordan, no further appeals.