Why Obama is wrong when he says business needs the government

[Quantum Windbag]

I've seen a lot of people talk about what was said, but I thought it might be a good idea to actually put up what he said:

We’ve already made a trillion dollars’ worth of cuts. We can make some more cuts in programs that don’t work, and make government work more efficiently…We can make another trillion or trillion-two, and what we then do is ask for the wealthy to pay a little bit more …

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me, because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t -look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for president – because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together.”

You post this, including the part where he is arguing about taxes, and want me to believe he wasn't trying to argue the same stupid thing you have tried to argue. Obama obviously realizes he can't argue he did not mean that business needs government, which is quite clearly what he meant from the context of the speech, so he has switched to saying he didn't actually say it at all.

You are going to loose even if you put this in context, because the context makes it worse.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If the OP is right, then most CEO's of American businesses must believe that we should get rid of our military, our public education system, our law enforcement agencies,

for starters. How many do you think would agree with the OP?

Yep, that is what I am saying.

 

[Moonglow]

I would like to see how this pluralistic government would run without business control.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A second problem in 1929 when the US Stock Market collapsed made for more problems. The Golden Gate committee now has trouble issuing the bond needed for the construction of the bridge, even though the citizens of the surrounding area had put up their own personal lands and farms as collateral. It takes 3 more years and the wealthy President and founder of Bank of America, A.P. Giannini, to personally buy the 35 million dollar bond which he then finances through the bank. Without the bank and the intervention of private industry fueled by personal wealth, again the bridge would not have been built. By 1937 the bridge is completed—and Strauss delivers the bridge 1.7 million UNDER budget, using local non-union labor and private contractors.

www.thomas-purcell.com: Obama's Golden Gate Sized Error

Want to know what else got built without the government?

Sorry but if the herd of private interests that led to the stock market failure in the first place hadn't done so, the bond issue would have been bought by the general public. Funny how private interests always get credit when things go right but when things fail its always big mean ole government's fault.

Gee, nice that you think that nothing has ever changed in history.

The way those particular bonds worked is that the individuals that voted to let the counties issue the bond were actually risking their own property to support them. It isn't like now where the only people that loose if a government bond defaults is the retirees that have them as part of their pension plan. The Golden Gate Bridge was not built by the government, it was built despite it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think we should let the OP debate with himself:

This is what he said on the subject in the past:

By the way, just for the record, government jobs do not help the economy, they are a drain on it. A necessary drain, up to a point, but a drain none the less.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2814826-post12.html

So it's QW who says government isn't necessary vs. QW who says government is necessary.

Let the debate begin!!

What I said in the past is that government is necessary, what I am saying in this thread is that business does not need the government. Please explain how those two statements contradict. Even the people here that argue defending government involvement in business end up talking about government protecting individuals from a business that is out to kill us. Not one of them have ever argued that government exist to protect business from people.

 

[PratchettFan]

Nope. Not even close. There was commerce before there was the -idea- of government.

No. There wasn't. There was government when human beings were in small clans of hunter gatherers. Commerce came much later. Despite the old saw, it is government that is the oldest profession - with religion right on its tail.

How can anyone as stupid of you appreciate the subtlety of Prachett's writing? Commerce occurred when the first creature came home with food and shared it. Government did not happen until moochers that couldn't fend for themselves, or pay for the food, demanded an equal share.

So when a fox brings a rabbit to the den for the pups to eat, that is commerce. An interesting perspective.

Government started the moment one hunter started giving orders to the other hunters and they took them. IOW, it started when we began working cooperatively.

As to government being nothing but moochers who can't fend for themselves, please feel free to share that sentiment the next time you meet a serving marine. I am certain he/she will be very interested.

 

[Moonglow]

No. There wasn't. There was government when human beings were in small clans of hunter gatherers. Commerce came much later. Despite the old saw, it is government that is the oldest profession - with religion right on its tail.

Add in to say..no commerce ever created a state. Commerce without a secure environment does not last very long.

Actually, farms came into existance long before government. After the establishmeent of farms came Farming communes and the primitive beginnings of multi-family societies and government.

The first farmers supplied their own security--there was no government to rely on.

Fire and the use of tools made it possible for humans to spread beyond Africa. By 12,000 B.C.E., human societies spread to Europe, Asia, North America, South America, and Australia.

Agriculture revolution you are talking about was around 2-3000 B.C.E., Societies with rudamentary government was established during the Neolithic Era.

 

[PratchettFan]

No. There wasn't. There was government when human beings were in small clans of hunter gatherers. Commerce came much later. Despite the old saw, it is government that is the oldest profession - with religion right on its tail.

Add in to say..no commerce ever created a state. Commerce without a secure environment does not last very long.

Actually, farms came into existance long before government. After the establishmeent of farms came Farming communes and the primitive beginnings of multi-family societies and government.

The first farmers supplied their own security--there was no government to rely on.

Has no one here ever taken an anthropology course?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Is that a yes or a no?

Its pointing out that Obama was speaking about the federal government. It is pointing out YOU were using federal examples. It is pointing to the true topic of Obama's socialist agenda. Deflect all you want.

I read what he said and that is not what he was speaking about.

You read it? Did you read this part?

No, no, look -- I mean, we’re having a good, healthy, democratic debate. That’s how this works. And on their side, they’ve got a basic theory about how you grow the economy. And the theory is very simple: They think that the economy grows from the top down. So their basic theory is, if wealthy investors are doing well then everybody does well. So if we spend trillions of dollars on more tax cuts mostly for the wealthy, that that’s somehow going to create jobs, even if we have to pay for it by gutting education and gutting job-training programs and gutting transportation projects, and maybe even seeing middle-class folks have a higher tax burden.

Or this part?

And I understand why they wouldn’t want to pay more in taxes. Nobody likes to pay more in taxes. Here's the problem: If you continue their tax breaks, that costs a trillion dollars. And since we're trying to bring down our deficit and our debt, if we spend a trillion dollars on tax cuts for them, we're going to have to find that trillion dollars someplace else. That means we're going to have to maybe make student loans more expensive for students. Or we might have to cut back on the services we're providing our brave veterans when they come home.

He wasn't talking about the federal government?

What, exactly was he talking about?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think we should let the OP debate with himself:

This is what he said on the subject in the past:

By the way, just for the record, government jobs do not help the economy, they are a drain on it. A necessary drain, up to a point, but a drain none the less.

I'm trying to figure out how that applies to me. I get paid by the state government to study astrophysics. I take my money and I spend it on food. That helps my grocer - who makes jobs. I get my car repaired with it - making jobs for those who fix cars. I use it to take my kid to the doctor - making jobs for the health industry. If you could, perhaps, explain how anyone particular player in the market - be it my grocer, or automechanic, or doctor - would care one way or another whether the U.S. dollars I'm handing them came from a public or private job?

Damn, you really are dumb.

Tell me something, can you explain why your butcher wouldn't be better off if the government did not take a share of the money you pay him in order to pay your salary? Do you think money is magic? That taxes don't come out of people's pockets?

Is it, perhaps, the government that is magic?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So what nations have no rules regarding commerce? What nations have no penalties for not obeying their rules of commerce? Why did our founders give the national and state governments the power to regulate commerce? Government is heavily involved in commerce. It is one of the main reasons America changed from the Articles to the Constitution.

Sigh.

No matter how 'heavily involved' government may be in commerce, or how much better/effective/efficient/profitable commerce might be with government help. commerce does -not- require government involvement to exist, as proven by the examples I gave.

So, again: Nothing you posted here in any way negates what I said.

Saying that is the case does not make it the case. Perhaps you can point to a society which does not have any form of government so we can see just how that works.

Commerce is not society, get that through your head and we can actually discuss this. Until then, all we have is one idiot that insists that government predates society, and everyone else wondering what the frack he did in school.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No. There wasn't. There was government when human beings were in small clans of hunter gatherers. Commerce came much later. Despite the old saw, it is government that is the oldest profession - with religion right on its tail.

How can anyone as stupid of you appreciate the subtlety of Prachett's writing? Commerce occurred when the first creature came home with food and shared it. Government did not happen until moochers that couldn't fend for themselves, or pay for the food, demanded an equal share.

So when a fox brings a rabbit to the den for the pups to eat, that is commerce. An interesting perspective.

Government started the moment one hunter started giving orders to the other hunters and they took them. IOW, it started when we began working cooperatively.

As to government being nothing but moochers who can't fend for themselves, please feel free to share that sentiment the next time you meet a serving marine. I am certain he/she will be very interested.

Government is a pride of lions bringing their kill back and letting the alpha male eat first. Interesting perspective.

Government is not an agreement between people working together, it it was every marriage would be a government. Government occurs when that hunter decides to stay home and still order the hunt.

Marines are not the government, they work for it. Most Marines understand the difference, which is why they are pretty contemptuous of Army REMFs.

 

[8537]

Marines are not the government, they work for it. Most Marines understand the difference, which is why they are pretty contemptuous of Army REMFs.

^ That shit right there was funneh! Nicely played.

 

[PratchettFan]

Sigh.

No matter how 'heavily involved' government may be in commerce, or how much better/effective/efficient/profitable commerce might be with government help. commerce does -not- require government involvement to exist, as proven by the examples I gave.

So, again: Nothing you posted here in any way negates what I said.

Saying that is the case does not make it the case. Perhaps you can point to a society which does not have any form of government so we can see just how that works.

Commerce is not society, get that through your head and we can actually discuss this. Until then, all we have is one idiot that insists that government predates society, and everyone else wondering what the frack he did in school.

I did not say commerce was society. However, commerce only exists in society. You don't have commerce with yourself. So, if one is going to claim that commerce exists in the absence of government I would like to see the society where that is happening.

 

[PratchettFan]

How can anyone as stupid of you appreciate the subtlety of Prachett's writing? Commerce occurred when the first creature came home with food and shared it. Government did not happen until moochers that couldn't fend for themselves, or pay for the food, demanded an equal share.

So when a fox brings a rabbit to the den for the pups to eat, that is commerce. An interesting perspective.

Government started the moment one hunter started giving orders to the other hunters and they took them. IOW, it started when we began working cooperatively.

As to government being nothing but moochers who can't fend for themselves, please feel free to share that sentiment the next time you meet a serving marine. I am certain he/she will be very interested.

Government is a pride of lions bringing their kill back and letting the alpha male eat first. Interesting perspective.

Government is not an agreement between people working together, it it was every marriage would be a government. Government occurs when that hunter decides to stay home and still order the hunt.

Marines are not the government, they work for it. Most Marines understand the difference, which is why they are pretty contemptuous of Army REMFs.

You seem to think that government is some independent creature, seperate from human beings. So long as you do this I doubt you will ever understand. But that is ok. Your understanding is not required.

 

[saveliberty]

If you give a paper bag to Prachett, be sure to clearly mark the exit please.

 

[P@triot]

So when a fox brings a rabbit to the den for the pups to eat, that is commerce. An interesting perspective.

Government started the moment one hunter started giving orders to the other hunters and they took them. IOW, it started when we began working cooperatively.

As to government being nothing but moochers who can't fend for themselves, please feel free to share that sentiment the next time you meet a serving marine. I am certain he/she will be very interested.

Government is a pride of lions bringing their kill back and letting the alpha male eat first. Interesting perspective.

Government is not an agreement between people working together, it it was every marriage would be a government. Government occurs when that hunter decides to stay home and still order the hunt.

Marines are not the government, they work for it. Most Marines understand the difference, which is why they are pretty contemptuous of Army REMFs.

You seem to think that government is some independent creature, seperate from human beings. So long as you do this I doubt you will ever understand. But that is ok. Your understanding is not required.

You know what I do understand Pratchett? That the "whoa-is-me", "I'm-so-helpless", "I-need-goverment-to-do-everything-for-me", "please-Uncle-Sam-coddle-me-now-that-mommy-and-daddy-won't" act of you liberals is really fucking tired. Your entire belief that you're incapable of moving your little toe without the help of Barack Obama and the rest of government is seriously pathetic.

 

[PratchettFan]

Government is a pride of lions bringing their kill back and letting the alpha male eat first. Interesting perspective.

Government is not an agreement between people working together, it it was every marriage would be a government. Government occurs when that hunter decides to stay home and still order the hunt.

Marines are not the government, they work for it. Most Marines understand the difference, which is why they are pretty contemptuous of Army REMFs.

You seem to think that government is some independent creature, seperate from human beings. So long as you do this I doubt you will ever understand. But that is ok. Your understanding is not required.

You know what I do understand Pratchett? That the "whoa-is-me", "I'm-so-helpless", "I-need-goverment-to-do-everything-for-me", "please-Uncle-Sam-coddle-me-now-that-mommy-and-daddy-won't" act of you liberals is really fucking tired. Your entire belief that you're incapable of moving your little toe without the help of Barack Obama and the rest of government is seriously pathetic.

I live in the real world. You should try it sometime.

 

[Misty]

All the government does for my business is make my employees and myself give them a good portion of our money

most of a businesses' money goes to three places.

1.the government
2. The employees
3. Back into the business

 

[NYcarbineer]

Its pointing out that Obama was speaking about the federal government. It is pointing out YOU were using federal examples. It is pointing to the true topic of Obama's socialist agenda. Deflect all you want.

I read what he said and that is not what he was speaking about.

I read it too. Your inability to read for meaning behind the words is noted.

He was talking about teachers for one thing, and teachers work in local/state government.

So stop being the stupid fuck you've always been. Try to move up the intellectual food chain for once in your otherwise stagnant existence.