Why do people still think the Bible was created at the Council of Nicaea?

[JakeStarkey]

Glad to hear you have had a good life.

Quit the bitching, then. My wife died from cancer, and my sister, my mother, and my eldest daughter. We all suffer, and whether you blame God or a lack of a God is meaningless.

Based upon 80 years of experience in the real world:

Fuck Gawd!! And Fuck the angel he rode in on!!

That's your right.

 

[Iceweasel]

The Bible is a collection of books and yes, that was one of the purposes of the council. Churches used different books here and there and the emperor wanted a cohesive voice when creating his state religion. I'm sure he had no idea how wildly successful the effort would become. Not being a Christian himself I don't think there's any evidence he personally influenced the decision, just that a decision had to be made. That's an odd way for God to "write a book".

 

[turzovka]

Weeaall....if you look at the total activities of the Roman Emperor Constantine things turned out pretty well for them. He omitted three gospel accounts, he selected pagan holidays for Christmas and Easter....he basically formed Christianity for the rewards to be passed along to the Roman empire. If you look closely the whole thing has worked out well for them....look at Vatican City, the architecture, the fine art, the massive collections of silver and gold.....that ol' boy knew what he was doing and anyone who doesn't realize it ain't paying attention:

Roman Catholic Christianity goes a lot deeper than that. (understatement) Beyond the ostensible outcomes you are highlighting.

Plus, I think you are overstating Constantine’s influence by a thousand. The growth and influence would have occurred with or without his involvement. Only if there is no God could your illustration have any truth to it.

Then I'm right on target. By the way.....which god? Everybody thinks their god is the only true god and there have been dozens of them and the main influence they've had on mankind has been wars....one after another ever since we began to gather the low hanging fruit. Screw god and screw religion. Mankind would have been ten times better off without any of it. You know what? people are finally beginning to catch on:
Survey: One in five Americans has no religion

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) – The fastest growing "religious" group in America is made up of people with no religion at all, according to a Pew survey showing that one in five Americans is not affiliated with any religion.

The number of these Americans has grown by 25% just in the past five years, according to a survey released Tuesday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

The survey found that the ranks of the unaffiliated are growing even faster among younger Americans.

Thirty-three million Americans now have no religious affiliation, with 13 million in that group identifying as either atheist or agnostic, according to the new survey.

Pew found that those who are religiously unaffiliated are strikingly less religious than the public at large. They attend church infrequently, if at all, are largely not seeking out religion and say that the lack of it in their lives is of little importance.

I understand. Misery loves company. Not only is there a percentage growth in unbelievers, other trends have spiked as well --- including, general immorality of every stripe imaginable. Plus selfishness, rudeness, gossip, greed, crime, and a drop in education standards. Younger adults know so little about the larger world, it only follows that the subject of God is too heavy for their pleasure-seeking minds as well.

You, on the other hand, claim to know better. You base your atheism on your education, selective as that may be. I could document scores of supernatural manifestations and you would find some highly implausible escape to keep you demystified and on some short-lived pleasure cruise. The evidence for God cannot be avoided, except by doing what Barbra Streisand sings in The way we Were --- "that which is too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget."

The evidence of god is one thing....his total and undeniable absence from everything. Read closely...as I've said before I'm an old man.
When I was born in 1934 the average life expectancy of a White male in the United States was 61. If someone survived their first heart attack they would mope around essentially disabled for a couple of years then die. Cancer was a death sentence. The only treatment was surgery and over half the time the tumor metasticised and spread. The afflicted usually lasted a year after that at the most. One of my favorite people in the world lasted nine months after diagnosis, lost half his body weight and because he looked like he had been dead for ten years it was a closed casket memorial.

Wednesday evening prayer meetings all over this country were
crowded and prayer lists were a foot long. Every family either had a member or a close friend who was sick or dying. People prayed till their knees were bloody and the afflicted suffered and died anyway. Where was the invisible man, woman, thing in the sky?

Now the average life expectancy of a White male at birth in America is 78. Thanks to the electronic spin offs from the moon landing in the late 1960's, we now have sophisticated diagnostic systems, MRI, CTScans, ultrasound, echocardiograms, endoscopy, colonoscopy, heart catherization procedures, stents, bypasses, transplants, stem cell technology, chemo, radiation and limited or non-invasive surgical procedures which produce much lower mortality statistics. What about the hundreds of millions who died or suffered unmercifully before all this technology and research came about? What about the hundreds of billions of prayers which were obviously wasted? Did anything the prayer group did have any effect at all? About god....the most obvious thing about the whole story was his/her/it's total absence. Don't you people ever read about anything except the bible....a 2000 year old crock of shit?

Yes, humanity has yet to understand the total mystery of suffering. Therefore what?.... tell God to his face he is cruel and ignore him thereafter?

I always wonder, what’s so great about 70 years of existence anyway, even if it were a life of bliss? When it is over you have nothing left. Vanished from thought or existence. THAT, is enough to satisfy an atheist? If I thought this was all there is and I would never see those dear to me again, I would go mad.

Which is not what you were referring to. But my point is, once I know God exists and He has revealed untold truths, for here and for what lies beyond the grave --- I would never abandon Him because I could not come to terms with the human suffering He allows. Too much to be grateful for, too much to not have constantly a part of my thoughts.

No, I do not blame the Jews for turning any G-d off completely after having endured the holocaust. I imagine G-d does not blame them either. But for many of us not so wounded for a lifetime, we need to weigh all heavenly matters and evidence for it. We are accountable for many things and I cannot ignore the reality and gravity of it all.

 

[Campbell]

Weeaall....if you look at the total activities of the Roman Emperor Constantine things turned out pretty well for them. He omitted three gospel accounts, he selected pagan holidays for Christmas and Easter....he basically formed Christianity for the rewards to be passed along to the Roman empire. If you look closely the whole thing has worked out well for them....look at Vatican City, the architecture, the fine art, the massive collections of silver and gold.....that ol' boy knew what he was doing and anyone who doesn't realize it ain't paying attention:

Roman Catholic Christianity goes a lot deeper than that. (understatement) Beyond the ostensible outcomes you are highlighting.

Plus, I think you are overstating Constantine’s influence by a thousand. The growth and influence would have occurred with or without his involvement. Only if there is no God could your illustration have any truth to it.

Then I'm right on target. By the way.....which god? Everybody thinks their god is the only true god and there have been dozens of them and the main influence they've had on mankind has been wars....one after another ever since we began to gather the low hanging fruit. Screw god and screw religion. Mankind would have been ten times better off without any of it. You know what? people are finally beginning to catch on:
Survey: One in five Americans has no religion

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) – The fastest growing "religious" group in America is made up of people with no religion at all, according to a Pew survey showing that one in five Americans is not affiliated with any religion.

The number of these Americans has grown by 25% just in the past five years, according to a survey released Tuesday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

The survey found that the ranks of the unaffiliated are growing even faster among younger Americans.

Thirty-three million Americans now have no religious affiliation, with 13 million in that group identifying as either atheist or agnostic, according to the new survey.

Pew found that those who are religiously unaffiliated are strikingly less religious than the public at large. They attend church infrequently, if at all, are largely not seeking out religion and say that the lack of it in their lives is of little importance.

I understand. Misery loves company. Not only is there a percentage growth in unbelievers, other trends have spiked as well --- including, general immorality of every stripe imaginable. Plus selfishness, rudeness, gossip, greed, crime, and a drop in education standards. Younger adults know so little about the larger world, it only follows that the subject of God is too heavy for their pleasure-seeking minds as well.

You, on the other hand, claim to know better. You base your atheism on your education, selective as that may be. I could document scores of supernatural manifestations and you would find some highly implausible escape to keep you demystified and on some short-lived pleasure cruise. The evidence for God cannot be avoided, except by doing what Barbra Streisand sings in The way we Were --- "that which is too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget."

The evidence of god is one thing....his total and undeniable absence from everything. Read closely...as I've said before I'm an old man.
When I was born in 1934 the average life expectancy of a White male in the United States was 61. If someone survived their first heart attack they would mope around essentially disabled for a couple of years then die. Cancer was a death sentence. The only treatment was surgery and over half the time the tumor metasticised and spread. The afflicted usually lasted a year after that at the most. One of my favorite people in the world lasted nine months after diagnosis, lost half his body weight and because he looked like he had been dead for ten years it was a closed casket memorial.

Wednesday evening prayer meetings all over this country were
crowded and prayer lists were a foot long. Every family either had a member or a close friend who was sick or dying. People prayed till their knees were bloody and the afflicted suffered and died anyway. Where was the invisible man, woman, thing in the sky?

Now the average life expectancy of a White male at birth in America is 78. Thanks to the electronic spin offs from the moon landing in the late 1960's, we now have sophisticated diagnostic systems, MRI, CTScans, ultrasound, echocardiograms, endoscopy, colonoscopy, heart catherization procedures, stents, bypasses, transplants, stem cell technology, chemo, radiation and limited or non-invasive surgical procedures which produce much lower mortality statistics. What about the hundreds of millions who died or suffered unmercifully before all this technology and research came about? What about the hundreds of billions of prayers which were obviously wasted? Did anything the prayer group did have any effect at all? About god....the most obvious thing about the whole story was his/her/it's total absence. Don't you people ever read about anything except the bible....a 2000 year old crock of shit?

Yes, humanity has yet to understand the total mystery of suffering. Therefore what?.... tell God to his face he is cruel and ignore him thereafter?

I always wonder, what’s so great about 70 years of existence anyway, even if it were a life of bliss? When it is over you have nothing left. Vanished from thought or existence. THAT, is enough to satisfy an atheist? If I thought this was all there is and I would never see those dear to me again, I would go mad.

Which is not what you were referring to. But my point is, once I know God exists and He has revealed untold truths, for here and for what lies beyond the grave --- I would never abandon Him because I could not come to terms with the human suffering He allows. Too much to be grateful for, too much to not have constantly a part of my thoughts.

No, I do not blame the Jews for turning any G-d off completely after having endured the holocaust. I imagine G-d does not blame them either. But for many of us not so wounded for a lifetime, we need to weigh all heavenly matters and evidence for it. We are accountable for many things and I cannot ignore the reality and gravity of it all.

God sucks, there is no god and people who think they can expect some kind of magic after they die are absolutely horse shit NUTS!

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own--a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human fraility. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive, and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in nature." ~Dr. Albert Einstein~



This man knew!!!!!

 

[Iceweasel]

I always wonder, what’s so great about 70 years of existence anyway

That's up to you, but surrendering rational thought is a steep price to pay for comfort.

 

[turzovka]

I always wonder, what’s so great about 70 years of existence anyway

That's up to you, but surrendering rational thought is a steep price to pay for comfort.

Just because we have an assured belief in something you cannot accept, does not mean our reasons lack rationality. In fact, they would not exist without it. As pope benedict said --- faith without reason is a false faith.

 

[Iceweasel]

I always wonder, what’s so great about 70 years of existence anyway

That's up to you, but surrendering rational thought is a steep price to pay for comfort.

Just because we have an assured belief in something you cannot accept, does not mean our reasons lack rationality. In fact, they would not exist without it. As pope benedict said --- faith without reason is a false faith.

You contradicted yourself and are not aware of it. That's exactly what I meant. You suspend rational thought in favor of an assured belief. If it was factual, you wouldn't need to tightly hold onto the belief. I once did accept it but I did what they warned me not to do, I researched extra-biblical material that made me require increasing amounts of faith, until honesty finally won out and I had to admit it was all a compelling story evolving back in the day, before people could look shit up.

 

[turzovka]

God sucks, there is no god and people who think they can expect some kind of magic after they die are absolutely horse shit NUTS!

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own--a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human fraility. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive, and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in nature." ~Dr. Albert Einstein~ This man knew!!!!!

Yes, Einstein knew alright. And a thousand saints before him were all duped.

So what are you going to do with all the irrefutable miracles?

Like this one. Is the Shroud of Turin a Genuine Miracle?

 

[turzovka]

I always wonder, what’s so great about 70 years of existence anyway

That's up to you, but surrendering rational thought is a steep price to pay for comfort.

Just because we have an assured belief in something you cannot accept, does not mean our reasons lack rationality. In fact, they would not exist without it. As pope benedict said --- faith without reason is a false faith.

You contradicted yourself and are not aware of it. That's exactly what I meant. You suspend rational thought in favor of an assured belief. If it was factual, you wouldn't need to tightly hold onto the belief. I once did accept it but I did what they warned me not to do, I researched extra-biblical material that made me require increasing amounts of faith, until honesty finally won out and I had to admit it was all a compelling story evolving back in the day, before people could look shit up.

It is not what I do not understand that causes me concern. It is ignoring that which I do understand that worries me. And that which I do understand is based on empirical evidence for me. Without any second thought.

You want to look for reasons that make God sound irrational, but no one can explain away the other evidence for Him. Catholics are not bound to every word or literal interpretation of the Bible, nor are they under any obligation to be dogmatic on everything spoken of in the Word. But what the Catholic Church has been given by God, its authority and a host of revelations, no other church has come close to demonstrating such enormity. God did not wait 1500 years to have all these bands of different interpreters set it all straight for the Catholics.

 

[Iceweasel]

I always wonder, what’s so great about 70 years of existence anyway

That's up to you, but surrendering rational thought is a steep price to pay for comfort.

Just because we have an assured belief in something you cannot accept, does not mean our reasons lack rationality. In fact, they would not exist without it. As pope benedict said --- faith without reason is a false faith.

You contradicted yourself and are not aware of it. That's exactly what I meant. You suspend rational thought in favor of an assured belief. If it was factual, you wouldn't need to tightly hold onto the belief. I once did accept it but I did what they warned me not to do, I researched extra-biblical material that made me require increasing amounts of faith, until honesty finally won out and I had to admit it was all a compelling story evolving back in the day, before people could look shit up.

It is not what I do not understand that causes me concern. It is ignoring that which I do understand that worries me. And that which I do understand is based on empirical evidence for me. Without any second thought.

You want to look for reasons that make God sound irrational, but no one can explain away the other evidence for Him. Catholics are not bound to every word or literal interpretation of the Bible, nor are they under any obligation to be dogmatic on everything spoken of in the Word. But what the Catholic Church has been given by God, its authority and a host of revelations, no other church has come close to demonstrating such enormity. God did not wait 1500 years to have all these bands of different interpreters set it all straight for the Catholics.

More contradictions. On one hand you believe in empirical evidence but on the other hand you hide behind religious smoke and mirrors and claim (rather arrogantly at that) you are under no obligation to back anything up. Your mind is no longer yours, it belongs to an organization to do with as they please.

 

[Campbell]

God sucks, there is no god and people who think they can expect some kind of magic after they die are absolutely horse shit NUTS!

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own--a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human fraility. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive, and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in nature." ~Dr. Albert Einstein~ This man knew!!!!!

Yes, Einstein knew alright. And a thousand saints before him were all duped.

So what are you going to do with all the irrefutable miracles?

Like this one. Is the Shroud of Turin a Genuine Miracle?

Miracle LOL...are you trying to shit me? The Catholic church requires a number of miracles before one can become part of the hierarchy. A miracle is in the eyes of the beholder. Anybody who isn't a doctor and tells me they were responsible for the renewed wellness of a really sick human must take me for a dumbass. Religion is and has always been a game constituted by the powerful to gain control over the masses. Just because you haven't made note of that fact doesn't change it one iota!! A person who automatically donates a tenth of everything they can get their hands on to anybody is a major league Dumbass!!

 

[turzovka]

Yes, Einstein knew alright. And a thousand saints before him were all duped. So what are you going to do with all the irrefutable miracles? Like this one. Is the Shroud of Turin a Genuine Miracle?

Miracle LOL...are you trying to shit me? The Catholic church requires a number of miracles before one can become part of the hierarchy. A miracle is in the eyes of the beholder. Anybody who isn't a doctor and tells me they were responsible for the renewed wellness of a really sick human must take me for a dumbass. Religion is and has always been a game constituted by the powerful to gain control over the masses. Just because you haven't made note of that fact doesn't change it one iota!! A person who automatically donates a tenth of everything they can get their hands on to anybody is a major league Dumbass!!

You are hardly amounting much of an argument. By stating you doubt some healings came from heaven means what? You have just disproven all revelation? It is the desperate skeptic who instead of addressing the points of the specific subject matter being discussed, insteads diverts to another in order to provoke laughter how some group put faith in the image on a grill cheese sandwich or the trunk of a tree. That is not what is being discussed. [ FYI, there have been 67 quantitatively verified by an independent board of secular science and medical professionals at Lourdes. Previously classified as incurables. Of course those scientists and medical professionals have no credibility, right? ]

I gave you a short article that came out this past week where it is explained that science has basically been the vehicle to prove the supernatural nature of the image on the Shroud of Turin. Right reason, technical analysis and historical knowledge of nature has endowed itself to virtually declaring The Shroud is supernatural. No other explanation plausible.

There are others… including Fatima, Lourdes, Zeitoun, Egypt, stigmatas, etc. for which the doubter cannot mount a defense. Sorry that you cannot see.

 

[turzovka]

More contradictions. On one hand you believe in empirical evidence but on the other hand you hide behind religious smoke and mirrors and claim (rather arrogantly at that) you are under no obligation to back anything up. Your mind is no longer yours, it belongs to an organization to do with as they please.

1 Corinthians 13:12 “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

I do not feel like expounding on some, I think, are obvious explanations. Some core dogma has been revealed as truth with signs and wonders from God validating His Word. These miracles you likely deny are unexplained in the natural and all point to Jesus Christ. Other teachings or beliefs are a matter of both reason and faith. God has given us enough to trust Him on other doctrines. We are certain that prayer makes a difference, by faith, even if Susan’s cancer is never healed. That is not the guarantees God has in place. Some are healed, however, to bolster the faith of the believer or to challenge the skeptic.

 

[Iceweasel]

More contradictions. On one hand you believe in empirical evidence but on the other hand you hide behind religious smoke and mirrors and claim (rather arrogantly at that) you are under no obligation to back anything up. Your mind is no longer yours, it belongs to an organization to do with as they please.

1 Corinthians 13:12 “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

I do not feel like expounding on some, I think, are obvious explanations. Some core dogma has been revealed as truth with signs and wonders from God validating His Word. These miracles you likely deny are unexplained in the natural and all point to Jesus Christ. Other teachings or beliefs are a matter of both reason and faith. God has given us enough to trust Him on other doctrines. We are certain that prayer makes a difference, by faith, even if Susan’s cancer is never healed. That is not the guarantees God has in place. Some are healed, however, to bolster the faith of the believer or to challenge the skeptic.

That's no different than chanting while rubbing your magic prayer beads. The truth is that no, you do not care for empirical evidence, you believe what you want to like every other religion on Earth.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't see the Bible as being created by the Council of Nicaea. What I see being created is Canon--or a compilation of books that the Council deemed authoritative. I see the Council as a group of scholars who pointed to a collection of books that reflected the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, not people like Arius, and not fantastical stories as do some of the "Lost" books such as the Infancy Narrative.

One of the books not chosen was the Book of Barnabas, which probably has a great a claim to be Canon as the Book of Jude, but there was a difference of opinion on its authenticity, so in the end it was excluded from Canon, but still held in high regard.

Revelation almost didn't make the cut because of arguments it could be so easily misinterpreted and misunderstood--which it has been.

If the same books that the Council of Nicaea reviewed could be reviewed by a Council of knowledgeable Christians of all denominations today, I believe the same books would still be selected as Canon, possibly including Barnabas this time. What was authoritative then is still authoritative by the same standards today.

 

[Campbell]

God sucks, there is no god and people who think they can expect some kind of magic after they die are absolutely horse shit NUTS!

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own--a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human fraility. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive, and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in nature." ~Dr. Albert Einstein~ This man knew!!!!!

Yes, Einstein knew alright. And a thousand saints before him were all duped.

So what are you going to do with all the irrefutable miracles?

Like this one. Is the Shroud of Turin a Genuine Miracle?

You're wasting your cyber ink. I don't believe in miracles and doubt that I ever will. At 81 years I've seen a lot of shit but the people I knew and who knew me didn't waste any of my time trying to convince me to believe a made up crock of horse shit!

 

[turzovka]

You're wasting your cyber ink. I don't believe in miracles and doubt that I ever will. At 81 years I've seen a lot of shit but the people I knew and who knew me didn't waste any of my time trying to convince me to believe a made up crock of horse shit!

Well given that, I am curious what your motivation is for being here?

Do you say people would be wasting their time trying to convince you of miracles or God --- because you have no interest in knowing?

 

[Iceweasel]

I don't see the Bible as being created by the Council of Nicaea. What I see being created is Canon--or a compilation of books that the Council deemed authoritative.

That's what the bible is. Thanks for keeping up.

 

[Meriweather]

That's what the bible is. Thanks for keeping up.[/QUOTE]

Grin. And sometimes my point goes right over some people's head.

 

[Campbell]

Yes, Einstein knew alright. And a thousand saints before him were all duped. So what are you going to do with all the irrefutable miracles? Like this one. Is the Shroud of Turin a Genuine Miracle?

Miracle LOL...are you trying to shit me? The Catholic church requires a number of miracles before one can become part of the hierarchy. A miracle is in the eyes of the beholder. Anybody who isn't a doctor and tells me they were responsible for the renewed wellness of a really sick human must take me for a dumbass. Religion is and has always been a game constituted by the powerful to gain control over the masses. Just because you haven't made note of that fact doesn't change it one iota!! A person who automatically donates a tenth of everything they can get their hands on to anybody is a major league Dumbass!!

You are hardly amounting much of an argument. By stating you doubt some healings came from heaven means what? You have just disproven all revelation? It is the desperate skeptic who instead of addressing the points of the specific subject matter being discussed, insteads diverts to another in order to provoke laughter how some group put faith in the image on a grill cheese sandwich or the trunk of a tree. That is not what is being discussed. [ FYI, there have been 67 quantitatively verified by an independent board of secular science and medical professionals at Lourdes. Previously classified as incurables. Of course those scientists and medical professionals have no credibility, right? ]

I gave you a short article that came out this past week where it is explained that science has basically been the vehicle to prove the supernatural nature of the image on the Shroud of Turin. Right reason, technical analysis and historical knowledge of nature has endowed itself to virtually declaring The Shroud is supernatural. No other explanation plausible.

There are others… including Fatima, Lourdes, Zeitoun, Egypt, stigmatas, etc. for which the doubter cannot mount a defense. Sorry that you cannot see.

Enough of this already. It's time for you to prove your faith...please don't answer with some kind of unknown cyber tongue:

Mark 16:
…17"These signs will accompany them that believe: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."