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Of course there is a difference between their language and how they communicate and ours. We think deeper no doubt but we are finding out they think deeper than you can imagine. So you are wrong.Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine..... I say they can and do already speak a language. .....
even that is vague, the vast correlations of scents and sounds are forms of decipherable language and used by both Fauna and Flora.
Again, that is communication but not language.
And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
Of course you can. A loud yell means "Danger." That's communication. "There's a tiger behind you" is language. Abstract thoughts, detailed communication, all require language. Simply conveying information is communication.Define communicating.Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine..... I say they can and do already speak a language. ....Again, that is communication but not language.
And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
Define language.
Can't communicate without language.
Define communicating.Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine..... I say they can and do already speak a language. ....Again, that is communication but not language.
And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
Define language.
Can't communicate without language.
Of course you can. A loud yell means "Danger." That's communication. "There's a tiger behind you" is language. Abstract thoughts, detailed communication, all require language. Simply conveying information is communication.Define communicating.Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine..... I say they can and do already speak a language. ....
And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
Define language.
Can't communicate without language.
Define communicating.Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine..... I say they can and do already speak a language. ....Again, that is communication but not language.
And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
Define language.
Can't communicate without language.
Kanzi[edit]Define communicating.Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine..... I say they can and do already speak a language. ....
And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
Define language.
Can't communicate without language.
Kanzi has exhibited advanced linguistic aptitude.
Kanzi, language-reared male bonobo, converses with Sue Savage-Rumbaugh in 2006 using a portable "keyboard" of arbitrary symbols that Kanzi associates with words.
Kanzi has learned hundreds of arbitrary symbols representing words, objects, and familiar people (including the generic "Visitor").
Although Kanzi learned to communicate using a keyboard with lexigrams, Kanzi also picked up some American Sign Language from watching videos of Koko the gorilla, who communicates using sign language to her keeper Penny Patterson; Savage-Rumbaugh did not realize Kanzi could sign until he signed "You, Gorilla, Question" to anthropologist Dawn Prince-Hughes, who had previously worked closely with gorillas. Based on trials performed at Yerkes Primate Research Center, Kanzi was able to correctly identify symbols 89-95% of the time.
Kanzi cannot speak vocally in a manner that is comprehensible to most humans, as bonobos have different vocal tracts from humans, which makes them incapable of reproducing most of the vocal sounds humans make. At the same time, it was noticed that every time Kanzi communicated with humans with specially designed graphic symbols, he also produced some vocalization. It was later found out that Kanzi was actually producing the articulate equivalent of the symbols he was indicating, although in a very high pitch and with distortions.
Of course there is a difference between their language ...Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine..... I say they can and do already speak a language. ....Again, that is communication but not language.
And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
What's it all about, Alfie? LMAOWell, where in hell did the monkeys come from in the first place?People don't seem to be educated about or understand the theory of evolution.Watch some science shows or read scientific magazines.Where are these common ancestors now? All buried and in the ground. Why did none of these half-monkey, half-men survive to the modern age? It seems awful convenient that none of them are around.No scientist says we evolved from monkeys, but that we had a common ancestor.
Dolphins and whales evolved from land mammals.
.Of course there is a difference between their language ...Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine..... I say they can and do already speak a language. ....
And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
"They" don't use language, humans do.
"They" don't use language, humans do.
True in a way. As we find animals getting closer and closer, they change the definition to increase the gap. That is why I posted the argument. As I said, he is a very tough grader..Of course there is a difference between their language ...Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine.And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
"They" don't use language, humans do.
"They" don't use language, humans do.
And most importantly, where other species have fixed, limited sets of messages they can convey, humans have an unbounded range of things that can be expressed in language.
there is not a sentence in your link that isn't contradictorly reimposed to satisfy their conclusion as the above to their distinction between the two communication and language, cooking the books is a poor excuse for an answer.
No way Jose.It would be more precise to say that humans have beaten evolution and are no longer under its influence.That doesn't change the fact of evolution. You are denying a reality. Humans are changing, evolving. This change takes places over thousands of years, so we don't see it on a superficial level. Intellectually, humans are also changing. It's happening. The fact that it may be more protein in the diet that causes people to be larger does not negate the fact that we are evolving. That's only one way we are evolving.Humans are getting larger because there's more meat in their diet. Go to a country where they still eat mostly corn and beans (Mexico) and you will see how small the people are, especially the Indian women.Humans are evolving now. Monkeys are probably also evolving. Evolution takes places over thousands of years. For example, humans are larger than they used to be. Go to an ancient site and see the size of doorways, beds, clothing, etc. Humans are getting larger, physically.
If anything, humans are de-evolving. Evolution happens when groups of a species are separated and allowed to "evolve" on the traits that help them survive in their specific environment.
In the modern age, all humans are connected since travel is so easy. The mixing of human groups that were separated for thousands of years is taking away the uniqueness of each group. Once the human race is nothing but a bunch of mulattos, there will be no diversity and no unique qualities to help humans survive.
We now control gene pools through medical technology, science and social policy.
You are talking social evolution, something a bit different & not genetic.
I wasn't commenting on intelligence, just language vs communication. That has almost nothing to do with intelligence. And it has been shown that if a human child does not learn a language by about the age of 5, s/he is pretty much incapable of learning language.Of course you can. A loud yell means "Danger." That's communication. "There's a tiger behind you" is language. Abstract thoughts, detailed communication, all require language. Simply conveying information is communication.Define communicating.Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine.And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
Define language.
Can't communicate without language.
They just may not be smart enough to ponder how they got here, what happens when they die and is there a god.
But who's to say if I was separated at birth from all humans that I would ever wonder such a thing. Maybe I would wonder how I got here but not come up with the god notion.
Maybe dolphins do ponder this and they think god made them in his image.
We don't know how smart dolphins are. Same way we don't know if there is life on other planets. The fact that we don't know, makes people like Unkotare sound like ignorant assholes when they say they know. Because they don't know shit.
.Of course there is a difference between their language ...Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine.And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
"They" don't use language, humans do.
"They" don't use language, humans do.
And most importantly, where other species have fixed, limited sets of messages they can convey, humans have an unbounded range of things that can be expressed in language.
there is not a sentence in your link that isn't contradictorly reimposed to satisfy their conclusion as the above to their distinction between the two communication and language, cooking the books is a poor excuse for an answer.
Of course there is a difference between their language ...Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine..... I say they can and do already speak a language. ....
And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
"They" don't use language, humans do.
No kidding? Interesting.I wasn't commenting on intelligence, just language vs communication. That has almost nothing to do with intelligence. And it has been shown that if a human child does not learn a language by about the age of 5, s/he is pretty much incapable of learning language.Of course you can. A loud yell means "Danger." That's communication. "There's a tiger behind you" is language. Abstract thoughts, detailed communication, all require language. Simply conveying information is communication.Define communicating.Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
Define language.
Can't communicate without language.
They just may not be smart enough to ponder how they got here, what happens when they die and is there a god.
But who's to say if I was separated at birth from all humans that I would ever wonder such a thing. Maybe I would wonder how I got here but not come up with the god notion.
Maybe dolphins do ponder this and they think god made them in his image.
We don't know how smart dolphins are. Same way we don't know if there is life on other planets. The fact that we don't know, makes people like Unkotare sound like ignorant assholes when they say they know. Because they don't know shit.
Of course there is a difference between their language ...Just because you, a human, can't understand their language does not mean they don't have a language. Whales have a language, monkeys use sign language, porpoises. Might even say Dogs have writing, in the form of their urine..... I say they can and do already speak a language. ....
And you're wrong.
No. I've told you, there is a difference between communicating and using language. You are mistaken.
"They" don't use language, humans do.
Criticism of ape language claims: Aping Language a skeptical analysis of the evidence for nonhuman primate languageKanzi has exhibited advanced linguistic aptitude.
Kanzi, language-reared male bonobo, converses with Sue Savage-Rumbaugh in 2006 using a portable "keyboard" of arbitrary symbols that Kanzi associates with words.
Kanzi has learned hundreds of arbitrary symbols representing words, objects, and familiar people (including the generic "Visitor").
Although Kanzi learned to communicate using a keyboard with lexigrams, Kanzi also picked up some American Sign Language from watching videos of Koko the gorilla, who communicates using sign language to her keeper Penny Patterson; Savage-Rumbaugh did not realize Kanzi could sign until he signed "You, Gorilla, Question" to anthropologist Dawn Prince-Hughes, who had previously worked closely with gorillas. Based on trials performed at Yerkes Primate Research Center, Kanzi was able to correctly identify symbols 89-95% of the time.
Criticism of ape language claims: Aping Language a skeptical analysis of the evidence for nonhuman primate languageKanzi has exhibited advanced linguistic aptitude.
Kanzi, language-reared male bonobo, converses with Sue Savage-Rumbaugh in 2006 using a portable "keyboard" of arbitrary symbols that Kanzi associates with words.
Kanzi has learned hundreds of arbitrary symbols representing words, objects, and familiar people (including the generic "Visitor").
Although Kanzi learned to communicate using a keyboard with lexigrams, Kanzi also picked up some American Sign Language from watching videos of Koko the gorilla, who communicates using sign language to her keeper Penny Patterson; Savage-Rumbaugh did not realize Kanzi could sign until he signed "You, Gorilla, Question" to anthropologist Dawn Prince-Hughes, who had previously worked closely with gorillas. Based on trials performed at Yerkes Primate Research Center, Kanzi was able to correctly identify symbols 89-95% of the time.
"For a start Kanzi — like [Nim Chomsky] before him — did not show the increase in sentence length that is typical of children learning language. In fact, at 1.15 symbols per sentence, Kanzi’s average utterance is even shorter than Nim’s. And it turns out that to complete many of the requests that were put to him Kanzi did not need to understand grammar. For example when Kanzi was asked to “Take the hat to the colony room” — which Kanzi did successfully — all he needed was some sense of “hat” and of “colony room.”14 A hat may be taken to a colony room, but a room cannot be brought to a hat. Successful completion of this instruction suggests an understanding of some vocabulary, but it is not in itself proof of grammatical comprehension. To test grammar what are needed are pairs of reversible commands like: “Dog bites man” and “Man bites dog.” Just knowing those three words — man, bites, and dog — is not enough to comprehend the difference between these two statements. For that difference to be understood grammar is crucial.
Of the 660 commands that Kanzi was given, a mere 21 formed pairs of the “man bites dog” “dog bites man” variety that constitute a critical test of grammatical comprehension. Savage-Rumbaugh and her colleagues reported that Kanzi responded accurately to 12 of these 21 pairs — a modest 57% correct. On closer inspection, however, it became clear to me that their method of coding Kanzi’s responses was unreasonably generous. To take one example: They commanded Kanzi, “Pour the juice in the egg.” Kanzi proceeded to pick up the bowl with the egg in it, sniff it, and shake it. They repeated the command three times — each time changing the wording slightly — before Kanzi did what they asked him to. They nonetheless scored his response as correct. When they asked Kanzi to “Pour some water on the raisins,” he held a jug of water over a lettuce. This was coded as correct. Kanzi’s first reaction to the request to pour milk into water was to stick a tomato in the water. When asked to chase Liz he remained seated; when asked again he touched Liz’s leg and she chased him. All of these were scored correct. When Kanzi was given the two commands, “Make the [toy] doggie bite the [toy] snake” and “Make the snake bite the doggie,” in both cases the snake ended up in the dog’s mouth but both responses were coded as correct. Re-scored to exclude these false positives, Kanzi achieves less than 30% correct."
Similarly, I've looked at the studies of Koko, and while she certainly does use ASL, she requires her handler to translate what she really means. If she truly understood language, anyone who understood ASL should be able to freely communicate with her.
