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how do you debate with someone who has no opinion?.....Theists won't debate a self-proclaimed agnostic.
Opinion has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. Either He does or He doesn't, whether I like it or not. My opinion is that the arguments and evidence for God is insufficient to determine that He exists, or not. If that seems wrong, how so?
I was a christian into my 30's. I just don't believe in god(s) anymore. Do you realize you are thinking with your heart and not your brain?
And maybe you have a good life and you attribute that in part to a god or your belief in that god. And maybe that's even true. I believe it is true for many people. I'm sure millions would say their God has made their life better. Their god has helped them. Their god loves them. There god has a heaven waiting for them.
It's funny how some people (theists) say the more they know god the more they love and worship him and the more we (atheists) learn the more sure we are god doesn't exist. But that's ok for us since we don't believe in heaven and hell. We just appreciate the time we have here and now.
I wasn't alive for billions of years before I was born and it didn't bother me one bit. I'm sure I'll be the same way after I'm gone. That's not sad. What will I care I'll be gone?
ten second version?....nothing to argue with there.......I see no proofs either......I simply choose to believe......see why we don't debate agnostics?.......nothing to argue about.......Not no opinion, my opinion is that I see no proof for or against the existence of god(s).how do you debate with someone who has no opinion?.....Theists won't debate a self-proclaimed agnostic.
Why do choose to believe?
how do you debate with someone who has no opinion?.....Theists won't debate a self-proclaimed agnostic.
Opinion has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. Either He does or He doesn't, whether I like it or not. My opinion is that the arguments and evidence for God is insufficient to determine that He exists, or not. If that seems wrong, how so?
never said it did......its simply that there is nothing to discuss with an agnostic.....all they are saying is that they have not made a decision......how do you debate that.....do you tell them they really have made a decision but are denying it?......
well, that's the difference between us......you're a brainless idiot.....me, not so much.....besides, aren't you the guy who can't give up calling himself an agnostic.......you hang on to "agnostic atheist" because you're afraid people will actually think you're one of those atheists......now your bad mouthing agnostics......you are really conflicted.......how do you debate with someone who has no opinion?.....Theists won't debate a self-proclaimed agnostic.
Opinion has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. Either He does or He doesn't, whether I like it or not. My opinion is that the arguments and evidence for God is insufficient to determine that He exists, or not. If that seems wrong, how so?
never said it did......its simply that there is nothing to discuss with an agnostic.....all they are saying is that they have not made a decision......how do you debate that.....do you tell them they really have made a decision but are denying it?......
That's what I tell them.
I was a christian into my 30's. I just don't believe in god(s) anymore. Do you realize you are thinking with your heart and not your brain?
And maybe you have a good life and you attribute that in part to a god or your belief in that god. And maybe that's even true. I believe it is true for many people. I'm sure millions would say their God has made their life better. Their god has helped them. Their god loves them. There god has a heaven waiting for them.
It's funny how some people (theists) say the more they know god the more they love and worship him and the more we (atheists) learn the more sure we are god doesn't exist. But that's ok for us since we don't believe in heaven and hell. We just appreciate the time we have here and now.
I wasn't alive for billions of years before I was born and it didn't bother me one bit. I'm sure I'll be the same way after I'm gone. That's not sad. What will I care I'll be gone?
No, I did not trade my brain for my heart. Both are still in working order. It is not a 'good' life that has me believing in God, it is life experiences. While knowledge is great and serves us well, our life is mostly made up of relationships and how we relate to others. I mean, it is wonderful to know things, to grow things, to sing, dance, and create works of art. But the central part of our lives is our relationships with people. In other words, love. And God can help us with love.
well, that's the difference between us......you're a brainless idiot.....me, not so much.....besides, aren't you the guy who can't give up calling himself an agnostic.......you hang on to "agnostic atheist" because you're afraid people will actually think you're one of those atheists......now your bad mouthing agnostics......you are really conflicted.......how do you debate with someone who has no opinion?.....Theists won't debate a self-proclaimed agnostic.
Opinion has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. Either He does or He doesn't, whether I like it or not. My opinion is that the arguments and evidence for God is insufficient to determine that He exists, or not. If that seems wrong, how so?
never said it did......its simply that there is nothing to discuss with an agnostic.....all they are saying is that they have not made a decision......how do you debate that.....do you tell them they really have made a decision but are denying it?......
That's what I tell them.
ten second version?....nothing to argue with there.......I see no proofs either......I simply choose to believe......see why we don't debate agnostics?.......nothing to argue about.......Not no opinion, my opinion is that I see no proof for or against the existence of god(s).how do you debate with someone who has no opinion?.....Theists won't debate a self-proclaimed agnostic.
Why do choose to believe?
because....
1) I look at the universe and believe it was created....
2) I believe a deity capable of creation would communicate with us....
3) I believe that communication would be successful.....
4) out of all the major world religions only three worship a deity who says he created the universe and has presented us with a communication its believers acknowledge as a communication....
5) all three (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) identify the same creator.....YHWH....
6) of those three, Judaism and Islam teach that humanity is restored to God by humanity's righteous conduct.....
7) observing humanity's conduct, I find that concept unbelievable.....
8) that leaves me with Christianity.....
/shrugs....I made no comments at all about atheists ethics....I made comments about your intelligence.....well, that's the difference between us......you're a brainless idiot.....me, not so much.....besides, aren't you the guy who can't give up calling himself an agnostic.......you hang on to "agnostic atheist" because you're afraid people will actually think you're one of those atheists......now your bad mouthing agnostics......you are really conflicted.......how do you debate with someone who has no opinion?.....
Opinion has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. Either He does or He doesn't, whether I like it or not. My opinion is that the arguments and evidence for God is insufficient to determine that He exists, or not. If that seems wrong, how so?
never said it did......its simply that there is nothing to discuss with an agnostic.....all they are saying is that they have not made a decision......how do you debate that.....do you tell them they really have made a decision but are denying it?......
That's what I tell them.
Atheists ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.
nope.....ten second version?....nothing to argue with there.......I see no proofs either......I simply choose to believe......see why we don't debate agnostics?.......nothing to argue about.......Not no opinion, my opinion is that I see no proof for or against the existence of god(s).how do you debate with someone who has no opinion?.....
Why do choose to believe?
because....
1) I look at the universe and believe it was created....
2) I believe a deity capable of creation would communicate with us....
3) I believe that communication would be successful.....
4) out of all the major world religions only three worship a deity who says he created the universe and has presented us with a communication its believers acknowledge as a communication....
5) all three (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) identify the same creator.....YHWH....
6) of those three, Judaism and Islam teach that humanity is restored to God by humanity's righteous conduct.....
7) observing humanity's conduct, I find that concept unbelievable.....
8) that leaves me with Christianity.....
Are you saying that Muslims and Jews believe the way to heaven is by being a good person and Christians think they all get a free pass into heaven just for believing in Jesus?
/shrugs....I made no comments at all about atheists ethics....I made comments about your intelligence.....well, that's the difference between us......you're a brainless idiot.....me, not so much.....besides, aren't you the guy who can't give up calling himself an agnostic.......you hang on to "agnostic atheist" because you're afraid people will actually think you're one of those atheists......now your bad mouthing agnostics......you are really conflicted.......Opinion has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. Either He does or He doesn't, whether I like it or not. My opinion is that the arguments and evidence for God is insufficient to determine that He exists, or not. If that seems wrong, how so?
never said it did......its simply that there is nothing to discuss with an agnostic.....all they are saying is that they have not made a decision......how do you debate that.....do you tell them they really have made a decision but are denying it?......
That's what I tell them.
Atheists ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.
Just some thoughts.
Just because something is perceived as having good consequences if it is true, does not actually make it true.
The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of atheists are generally more peaceful is evidence this perception is incorrect. We also know how to love without god(s). A lot of other animals mate for life and love their young. We don't need god for this. Without god there is still love. Are you saying you believe or you believe you need to believe?
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg
I think your religion is has it completely wrong and is messing up the general understanding of God. You, on the other hand, seem to be the most spiritually attune person I have read on this forum, not that I am actually a good judge of such things.I was a christian into my 30's. I just don't believe in god(s) anymore. Do you realize you are thinking with your heart and not your brain?
And maybe you have a good life and you attribute that in part to a god or your belief in that god. And maybe that's even true. I believe it is true for many people. I'm sure millions would say their God has made their life better. Their god has helped them. Their god loves them. There god has a heaven waiting for them.
It's funny how some people (theists) say the more they know god the more they love and worship him and the more we (atheists) learn the more sure we are god doesn't exist. But that's ok for us since we don't believe in heaven and hell. We just appreciate the time we have here and now.
I wasn't alive for billions of years before I was born and it didn't bother me one bit. I'm sure I'll be the same way after I'm gone. That's not sad. What will I care I'll be gone?
No, I did not trade my brain for my heart. Both are still in working order. It is not a 'good' life that has me believing in God, it is life experiences. While knowledge is great and serves us well, our life is mostly made up of relationships and how we relate to others. I mean, it is wonderful to know things, to grow things, to sing, dance, and create works of art. But the central part of our lives is our relationships with people. In other words, love. And God can help us with love.
OK, so I made a couple attempts at this, the second is also a reply to this post of yours. I also so have posts in several other threads in this forum you can read as you like. Are we ready to move past this question and onto the next?Uh, you might want try someone less, well, familiar with God. I'm happy to play though. I know God because I talk with him every day.You haven't been reading this forum lately I take it. Us theists have been pummelling everything and everyone who comes our way. Thanks for stepping up. You have a point to that catchy intro?
Excellent. I'm glad you're up to the challenge.
So my main point has to do with the nature of why beliefs are held, in particular beliefs in God. What makes you so sure that God exists that you BELIEVE it but not so sure that you KNOW it? I'm drawing a distinction here between belief and knowledge and about sufficient and valid reason for what one believes and for what one knows.
So then the question is, how do I know you aren't delusional about that? How do you show an unbeliever that just because you speak to Him everyday, God exists. That's hardly a convincing argument for any perspective outside of yours. Does He respond? Do you hear His voice? If so, how do you know you aren't hallucinating? How do I know you aren't hallucinating?
I think your religion is has it completely wrong and is messing up the general understanding of God. You, on the other hand, seem to be the most spiritually attune person I have read on this forum, not that I am actually a good judge of such things.
One aspect that surprised me the most when I started reading it, and reading it intensely, was not I got no emotional feel from it, absolutely none. People talk of being overwhelmed with the loving joy of Jesus like a wall of water fell upon them. At this point I believe anyone who says such a thing is delusional, and not just because there is no such person as Jesus Christ (sorry). It is only after I understood who God was and what that meant to me that I developed the deepest of loves for him.
There are parts of the Bible which are extremely challenging mentally. There are also some parts when one really feels the pain of having to choose. If one is not up to taking on both of those one is not up to learning about God.
apparently not....../shrugs....I made no comments at all about atheists ethics....I made comments about your intelligence.....well, that's the difference between us......you're a brainless idiot.....me, not so much.....besides, aren't you the guy who can't give up calling himself an agnostic.......you hang on to "agnostic atheist" because you're afraid people will actually think you're one of those atheists......now your bad mouthing agnostics......you are really conflicted.......never said it did......its simply that there is nothing to discuss with an agnostic.....all they are saying is that they have not made a decision......how do you debate that.....do you tell them they really have made a decision but are denying it?......
That's what I tell them.
Atheists ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.
Are you as turned on as I am right now?
The same with me and Christianity. If the NT did not still have the OT attached to it there probably would not be millions of copies of God's word in people's hand right now. Even so calling some guy walking down the road turning the other cheek god puts me at a loss for words.I think your religion is has it completely wrong and is messing up the general understanding of God. You, on the other hand, seem to be the most spiritually attune person I have read on this forum, not that I am actually a good judge of such things.
Good judge or not, those are very kind words. I thank you. The main thing I know about Catholicism is that it (figuratively) dropped me into the lap of God. That is why I cannot think of it as completely wrong.
One aspect that surprised me the most when I started reading it, and reading it intensely, was not I got no emotional feel from it, absolutely none. People talk of being overwhelmed with the loving joy of Jesus like a wall of water fell upon them. At this point I believe anyone who says such a thing is delusional, and not just because there is no such person as Jesus Christ (sorry). It is only after I understood who God was and what that meant to me that I developed the deepest of loves for him.
The Gospel accounts of Jesus Christ present him as a very balanced personality--or at least I find that so. Who do you understand God to be?
There are parts of the Bible which are extremely challenging mentally. There are also some parts when one really feels the pain of having to choose. If one is not up to taking on both of those one is not up to learning about God.
I tend to agree with this, but am wondering which parts you find painful? (If you care to talk about them.)
Hey, tell us the one again about how you believe in things without foundation just because you're a simpleton and can't rationalize properly so you make shit up.apparently not....../shrugs....I made no comments at all about atheists ethics....I made comments about your intelligence.....well, that's the difference between us......you're a brainless idiot.....me, not so much.....besides, aren't you the guy who can't give up calling himself an agnostic.......you hang on to "agnostic atheist" because you're afraid people will actually think you're one of those atheists......now your bad mouthing agnostics......you are really conflicted.......That's what I tell them.
Atheists ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.
Are you as turned on as I am right now?
???....projecting instead of debating again?.....Hey, tell us the one again about how you believe in things without foundation just because you're a simpleton and can't rationalize properly so you make shit up.apparently not....../shrugs....I made no comments at all about atheists ethics....I made comments about your intelligence.....well, that's the difference between us......you're a brainless idiot.....me, not so much.....besides, aren't you the guy who can't give up calling himself an agnostic.......you hang on to "agnostic atheist" because you're afraid people will actually think you're one of those atheists......now your bad mouthing agnostics......you are really conflicted.......
Atheists ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.
Are you as turned on as I am right now?
Alright, the title is sensationalistic but it got you to click my thread, right?
However, there is some truth to it. Theists almost always label all unbelievers as atheists, either not understanding that agnostics also don't believe in their God or purposely or unconsciously leaving that designation out because agnosticism is unassailable.
Theists won't debate a self-proclaimed agnostic. I think for the same reason.
Theists typically define atheists as those who believe there is no God. Atheists define themselves as either believing there is no God or not convinced there is a God. I think theists like to define atheists as making the positive claim that there is no God because that is a weaker position than the position that theists' claims are not convincing.
It's very telling. The weaker position relies on an unsubstantiated claim - really a claim that can not be rationally supported at all. A faith-based claim, if you will.
We've all heard that counter from the faithful that atheism requires more faith than theism. That doesn't work with agnosticism.
It seems as though we all recognize wherher consciously or unconsciously that agnosticism is the only rational position: that belief is irrelevant to the big questions of existence. That believing there is no God is just a irrational as believing there is. Well, not AS irrational.
There is no evidence for the existence of God, and, although theists would never admit it, lack of evidence IS evidence that supports that no God exists. It doesn't PROVE it, but it supports it.
Agnosticism is a refrain from belief. It isn't fence sitting. It isn't cowardice. Its an inability to be convinced by irrational arguments, unsubstantiated claims, and insufficient evidence. Its simply not finding convincing arguments for making a decision. Perhaps that requires a leap of faith. But truth doesn't require faith or belief - truth is truth whether one believes it or not. But to convince others of truth requires definitive evidence and to convince others to believe requires a desire to subjugate rationality for a misdirected attempt to substantiate your own beliefs.
This agnostic will wait for the evidence. Until then, I can't believe.
