Who Will Go To Heaven?

[Bern80]

As an ignostic this is one of the few times I will partially have to side w/ Bully.

Guess I'm just a person that needs to know and the existence (or non-existence) of a god is not something can be known. What I do know is that if a higher being exists there is no religion on this Earth that reflects what he would want for us. There are far to many contradicitons in religion for me to know what is what.

Who said homosexuality is wrong? God or man that wrote a book about god a few centuries later? Why would a God create someone that flawed and supposedly full of sin from the get go?

In response we use stupid cliche's like, "the Lord works in mysterious ways" or, "God has a plan." When a bunch of people saw God in the tail of a comet and killed themselves to see him everyone thought they were nuts and no one siad it was a part of any "plan". Or, when my cousin was caught heading to her newborn daughters room w/ a knife becasue God told her she needed to be like Abraham and sacrafice her child we explored every possible casue and solution. Did she not take her meds? Should her husband divirce her? Should she be institutionalized? Should the state take custody of the baby? and many others. The only possibilty all these so called devout catholics did not explore was that GOD ACTUALLY SPOKE TO HER, and as w/ Abraham would have intervened before she actually killed her child.

Maybe it's time some people stop asking what they believe and start asking what you don't believe.

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Well, you know, I lead a good life. I do no harm, I serve others through my pratice as a hospice nurse, I do good works...If that is not enough for any deity you might worship, then I want no part of it. Such a being is far to petty to rate my adoration. And if my life were to end this very moment, I would have no regrets.

So, you pray for me, I'll pray for you and we'll call it even.

Bully - you and I disagree on quite a few things - but I completely agree with you on this one.

A God who designed humans just to worship him at the threat of being sent to hell is not a god. The real God designed us to live fulfilling lives in harmony with others.

 

[Avatar4321]

Doing good works doesnt make a good person. A good person does good works.

Hitler helped put Germans back to work and food on their table. That doesnt mean he was a good man.

 

[wonderwench]

If Hitler hadn't orchestrated the Holocaust, you might now consider him a good person.

 

[Avatar4321]

You can never know. I probably still wouldnt because he was still an intolerant jew hater. And I dont like Racial/Ethnic/religious bigotry.

 

[Joz]

This is for Bern80. (& anyone else who cares to read)

Take your clothes off & go look in the mirrror. Pretty cool, huh? Take hair for instance. The hair on your head is different than the hair on your face; which is different than the hair under your arms, which is different than the hair on your legs. Being a nurse you constantly see the marvelous workings of the body. Surely you don't think this is by accident?

Organized religion is flawed just a man is. The only way you will find out 'what is what' is to ask God to show you. But then, if He doesn't exist for you, you'll never get it.

God didn't make ANYTHING flawed. Adam [and the world] was perfect in every way. On this thread we've discussed homosexuality quite a bit so I don't want to go into that [again]. At least not now.

God does have a plan; for all to be with Him when the time comes. I'm sorry about your cousin. I'm sure there has been much heartache in your family over this. If I told you about the tragedies in my life the last few years, your head would swim. I'll tell you this, God & I aren't on the best of terms at the moment. I'm upset at Him for a few particular incidents. And oh!, the cliches I've heard. I'm learning to tell people what I think of their well-meaning comments.

But God cannot be blamed for the condition of the world. Certain things were set in motion when sin entered the world, & they must be played out. God cannot go around interfering all the time. Nor can He coerce people, hence, freewill. God keeps as much in control as He can, but this is currently Satan's domain. That is the reason for the Cross.

I'm glad you're able to help people. I'd make a lousy nurse. But doing good things won't get you There. Salvation is a gift. All you have to do is believe & accept. It's that simple. God asks for love & obedience. He isn't an ogre.

But then, what do I know? This & a dollar'll get you a cup of coffee.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
Doing good works doesnt make a good person. A good person does good works.

Hitler helped put Germans back to work and food on their table. That doesnt mean he was a good man.

Your argument about Hitler is a straw-man. Hitler herded Jews into ghettoes and forbade them the rights of the rest of Germany. Of course more Germans went to work. This was a by-product of evil, it was not a good work. His actions were motivated by hatred and a lust for power.

I just do what I do because I love it. If you favorite deity finds that to be insufficient, then it is far too petty for me to indulge in its worship. If you act and work out of compassion, you will find the sacred, and it will find you.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Joz
This is for Bern80. (& anyone else who cares to read)

Take your clothes off & go look in the mirrror. Pretty cool, huh? Take hair for instance. The hair on your head is different than the hair on your face; which is different than the hair under your arms, which is different than the hair on your legs. Being a nurse you constantly see the marvelous workings of the body. Surely you don't think this is by accident?

Organized religion is flawed just a man is. The only way you will find out 'what is what' is to ask God to show you. But then, if He doesn't exist for you, you'll never get it.

God didn't make ANYTHING flawed. Adam [and the world] was perfect in every way. On this thread we've discussed homosexuality quite a bit so I don't want to go into that [again]. At least not now.

God does have a plan; for all to be with Him when the time comes. I'm sorry about your cousin. I'm sure there has been much heartache in your family over this. If I told you about the tragedies in my life the last few years, your head would swim. I'll tell you this, God & I aren't on the best of terms at the moment. I'm upset at Him for a few particular incidents. And oh!, the cliches I've heard. I'm learning to tell people what I think of their well-meaning comments.

But God cannot be blamed for the condition of the world. Certain things were set in motion when sin entered the world, & they must be played out. God cannot go around interfering all the time. Nor can He coerce people, hence, freewill. God keeps as much in control as He can, but this is currently Satan's domain. That is the reason for the Cross.

I'm glad you're able to help people. I'd make a lousy nurse. But doing good things won't get you There. Salvation is a gift. All you have to do is believe & accept. It's that simple. God asks for love & obedience. He isn't an ogre.

But then, what do I know? This & a dollar'll get you a cup of coffee.

We have absolutely no difficulty in accepting that a fully functional human being can spring from a few undifferentiated cells within the span of a few a dozen years or so. Why then the difficulty in accepting that this occured over a few billion years?

It's just as plausible to posit that aliens seeded the earth a few hundred million years ago and are quietly managing the farm.

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
We have absolutely no difficulty in accepting that a fully functional human being can spring from a few undifferentiated cells within the span of a few a dozen years or so. Why then the difficulty in accepting that this occured over a few billion years?

It's just as plausible to posit that aliens seeded the earth a few hundred million years ago and are quietly managing the farm.

But I DO have a problem accepting that I 'sprang' from a bunch of sea slime. And if that's the case, why aren't we still doing that? Grant you, with some of the behavior I've seen, it would be easy to believe certain men have evolved from monkeys.

We already have enough extralegal aliens in this country. Please don't bring anymore into the equation.

 

[Avatar4321]

Your argument about Hitler is a straw-man. Hitler herded Jews into ghettoes and forbade them the rights of the rest of Germany. Of course more Germans went to work. This was a by-product of evil, it was not a good work. His actions were motivated by hatred and a lust for power.

Sighs, You refuse to listen dont you? You missed the point entirely. Hitlers creation of VW had nothing to do with jews. It was a good work, that has created jobs for people since and allowed people to drive VWs for the last 60 years or so. It wasnt a byproduct of evil because there is nothing evil about creating a job and putting people to work. But one good work, or even a thousand doesnt make someone a good man. Which was the whole point that you ignored.

 

[Avatar4321]

Personally i favor the devolution of man theories more. Men devolved into the neaderthals and such.

What im amazed at is that a person can think its perfectly logical that the right combination of chemicals combined by chance and then somehow breaking the second law of thermodynamics evolved into new creatures over only 6 billion years or so and somehow every time this mutation has taken place in any animal that involves sexual reproduction, there has always been more than one who experience the same mutation and who are now able to breed with each other without being sterile. Yet somehow believing there is an All Powerful Supreme being who created the world and organized everything is illogical.

On top of that ive been recently informed that if we find life on Mars somehow that disproves the idea that an All powerful being who has created worlds and life without end somehow doesnt exist. Yet somehow we are to believe that the probability of two planets going through a simple life creation process as mentioned above in the same solar system randomly occured.

Its a simple application of Occums Razor to determine that its a simpler reasoning behind the creation of the world is that the world was organized by something than it is to believe that everything was organized by chance.

But you can believe what you want to believe. Just remember where you come from often determines what you become. So if you want to believe you came from some pond scum, fine. But those of us who believe we came from God will live and act like it.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Joz
This is for Bern80. (& anyone else who cares to read)

Take your clothes off & go look in the mirrror. Pretty cool, huh? Take hair for instance. The hair on your head is different than the hair on your face; which is different than the hair under your arms, which is different than the hair on your legs. Being a nurse you constantly see the marvelous workings of the body. Surely you don't think this is by accident?

Organized religion is flawed just a man is. The only way you will find out 'what is what' is to ask God to show you. But then, if He doesn't exist for you, you'll never get it.

God didn't make ANYTHING flawed. Adam [and the world] was perfect in every way. On this thread we've discussed homosexuality quite a bit so I don't want to go into that [again]. At least not now.

God does have a plan; for all to be with Him when the time comes. I'm sorry about your cousin. I'm sure there has been much heartache in your family over this. If I told you about the tragedies in my life the last few years, your head would swim. I'll tell you this, God & I aren't on the best of terms at the moment. I'm upset at Him for a few particular incidents. And oh!, the cliches I've heard. I'm learning to tell people what I think of their well-meaning comments.

But God cannot be blamed for the condition of the world. Certain things were set in motion when sin entered the world, & they must be played out. God cannot go around interfering all the time. Nor can He coerce people, hence, freewill. God keeps as much in control as He can, but this is currently Satan's domain. That is the reason for the Cross.

I'm glad you're able to help people. I'd make a lousy nurse. But doing good things won't get you There. Salvation is a gift. All you have to do is believe & accept. It's that simple. God asks for love & obedience. He isn't an ogre.

But then, what do I know? This & a dollar'll get you a cup of coffee.

I just don't know why people like you are so sure. I asked myslef one time why I believed and the answer because my parents did and their parents did and so on. I don't think any of them ever asked is this stuff I keep hearing even plausible.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Joz
But I DO have a problem accepting that I 'sprang' from a bunch of sea slime. And if that's the case, why aren't we still doing that? Grant you, with some of the behavior I've seen, it would be easy to believe certain men have evolved from monkeys.

Because in the words of Ian Malcolm "Life finds a way."

 

[5stringJeff]

Joz, I agree with you. There is simply no way to attribute the origin of life to anything except creation by God. There is no possible way that life could have spontaneously arisen from the primordial soup (as someone mentioned, that would defy the Second Law of Thermodynamics). Bully mentioned aliens... well, how did the aliens come to life? All that does is move the origin of life problem from Earth to an unknown planet.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
Sighs, You refuse to listen dont you? You missed the point entirely. Hitlers creation of VW had nothing to do with jews. It was a good work, that has created jobs for people since and allowed people to drive VWs for the last 60 years or so. It wasnt a byproduct of evil because there is nothing evil about creating a job and putting people to work. But one good work, or even a thousand doesnt make someone a good man. Which was the whole point that you ignored.

No I didn't "miss the point", as you made none.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
Joz, I agree with you. There is simply no way to attribute the origin of life to anything except creation by God. There is no possible way that life could have spontaneously arisen from the primordial soup (as someone mentioned, that would defy the Second Law of Thermodynamics). Bully mentioned aliens... well, how did the aliens come to life? All that does is move the origin of life problem from Earth to an unknown planet.

Your logic is circular, and collapses upon itself. It is a fundamental trait of dogma.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
Joz, I agree with you. There is simply no way to attribute the origin of life to anything except creation by God. There is no possible way that life could have spontaneously arisen from the primordial soup (as someone mentioned, that would defy the Second Law of Thermodynamics). Bully mentioned aliens... well, how did the aliens come to life? All that does is move the origin of life problem from Earth to an unknown planet.

Actually there is. Read "The Andromeda Strain" for a good explanation. It's simply the probabililty of certain events happening. It's much like the lottery. The chances of you winning are very small however the probablility of any person winning are very high. Sure the chances are small that Earth has become what it is today, but it had to happen somewhere.

 

[5stringJeff]

Bully, please explain how my logic is circular.

Bern, technically I will agree with you. There is a very small chance of life spontaneously organizing. Again, though, this defies the second law of thermodynamics - matter tends to go from a more organized state to a less organized state over time. And I have a really hard time believing that there were a bunch of proteins lying around, a lighting bolt struck, and a strand of DNA fused together. Not to mention the other proteins in the cell that replicate DNA/RNA, fix the cell membrane, etc. etc.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
Bully, please explain how my logic is circular.

Bern, technically I will agree with you. There is a very small chance of life spontaneously organizing. Again, though, this defies the second law of thermodynamics - matter tends to go from a more organized state to a less organized state over time. And I have a really hard time believing that there were a bunch of proteins lying around, a lighting bolt struck, and a strand of DNA fused together. Not to mention the other proteins in the cell that replicate DNA/RNA, fix the cell membrane, etc. etc.

I don't know about Bully, but i would say it's circular because you would seemingly fall into the "God must exist because God must exist" routine.

As for the the other I maintian my theory: It has to happen somewhere.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
Bully, please explain how my logic is circular.

Originally posted by Bern80
...it's circular because you would seemingly fall into the "God must exist because God must exist" routine...

BINGO! Thanks Bern...Short and simple...