Which Came First Creation Or Evolution?

[Syriusly]

Prove it.

The Big Bang was the beginning of space and time

At least, that is what science tells us.

So now God is the big bang.

God caused the Big Bang.

The space/time dimension we live in now is but one form of existence. Science tells us there are many others we have no way to comprehend.

Or maybe leprechauns.

Or maybe the Norse got it right.
The Origin of the Cosmos

Before there was soil, or sky, or any green thing, there was only the gaping abyss of Ginnungagap. This chaos of perfect silence and darkness lay between the homeland of elemental fire, Muspelheim, and the homeland of elemental ice, Niflheim.

Frost from Niflheim and billowing flames from Muspelheim crept toward each other until they met in Ginnungagap. Amid the hissing and sputtering, the fire melted the ice, and the drops formed themselves into Ymir (“Screamer”[1]), the first of the godlike but destructive giants. Ymir was a hermaphrodite and could reproduce asexually; when he slept, more giants leapt forth from his legs and from the sweat of his armpits.

As the frost continued to melt, a cow, Audhumla (“Abundance of Humming”[2]), emerged from it. She nourished Ymir with her milk, and she, in turn, was nourished by salt-licks in the ice. Her licks slowly uncovered Buri (“Progenitor”[3]), the first of the Aesir tribe of gods. Buri had a son named Bor (“Son”[4]), who married Bestla (perhaps “Wife”[5]), the daughter of the giant Bolthorn (“Baleful Thorn”[6]). The half-god, half-giant children of Bor and Bestla were Odin, who became the chief of the Aesir gods, and his two brothers, Vili and Ve.

Crazy story.

No, Genesis tells us that God created things in the order science tells us.

You know, the vegetation, then fish in the sea, then land animals, then man, etc.

Maybe this is why only the God of the Bible remains.

Really? LOL- do you really believe that? Well lets look at Genesis again- shall we?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
So at the very beginning- there were the 'heavens' and the earth- and darkness and water.
So does science say that earth and water existed before light?

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Then came light- including day and night- which is interesting because where did that light come from?- because according to Genesis the Sun doesn't come into existence until the fourth day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Then came 'God' created a vault separating the waters(?)- which was the sky- lets call it the atmosphere- separating the water of earth- from the water of?????. Hmmm does science say that the atmosphere came into existence after the oceans?


9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

Then there was land. So apparently before we had any land- we had all water- and atmosphere


11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

Then came vegetation- the third day- the day before there was our Sun.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Then came the Sun- and the Moon- and the stars- you know- the day after vegetation. How did that vegetation live- how did anything live on earth before there was the Sun? I am not talking chlorophyl here- I am talking a planet with no source of heat with everything completely frozen.


20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

Then there were creatures of the sea- fish and whales and seals- and birds- on the fifth day. While science does support the idea that 'fish' lived before land mammals- it doesn't support the idea that whales, and dolphins and seals existed before land animals.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

Then there was livestock and wild animals of the land- all created the same day. Again- science doesn't support the idea that livestock existed prior to wild animals- the science is pretty clear that domestication of animals- cows and horses and sheep- happened from wild stock relatively recently.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,a]">[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Then came man......after livestock......

Tell us again how the Biblical account of creation is supported by science?

Perhaps you can 'enlighten' us about how science says that there was light on Earth before the sun and stars came into existence and how plants existed before the sun?

 

[james bond]

Again, your logic is flawed. How can Satan influence my life if he doesn't exist? Prior to this, you were claiming he doesn't exist.

I was mocking your pontification that Satan does exist.
DUH!

Not pontification, but theory of existence. If good exists, then bad or absence of good has to exist. If light exists, then dark or absence of light has to exist. All around we observe both good and bad. We observe light and dark.

 

[Syriusly]

Dr. Henry Morris, states, "One question remains. Assuming Satan to be the real source of the evolutionary concept, how did it originate in his mind? . . . A possible answer to this mystery could be that Satan, the father of lies, has not only deceived the whole world and the angelic hosts who followed him--he has even deceived himself! The only way he could really know about creation (just as the only way we can know about creation) was for God to tell him! . . . . He refused to believe and accept the Word of God concerning his own creation and place in God's economy . . . He therefore deceived himself into supposing that all things, including himself and including God, had been evolved by natural processes out of the primordial stuff of the universe. . . ." (Morris, Troubled Waters of Evolution, 1974, pp 74-75)."

He is correct in stating that we know about creation through the Bible or God's Word. Evolution came afterward as we see during the times of Paul, the Epicureans and Stoics.

http://www.huecotanks.com/debunk/devil.htm

"The Theory of Biological Evolution is most often associated with Charles Darwin, because it was Charles Darwin that proposed the mechanism of natural selection and accompanied that proposition with a large volume of empirical data providing evidence for biological evolution.

Darwin was not, however, the first person to propose an evolutionary explanation for the diversity of life on earth. In fact, evolutionary concepts about life date far back into history and arose in many different cultures. The Greeks developed a concept of evolution over 2,300 years ago that was basically equivalent to that of Charles Darwin's, but the early Christians opposed the idea and destroyed all of the works that promoted it or any other naturalistic explanations for earthly phenomena."

Understanding Evolution: History, Theory, Evidence, and Implictions

ETA: Both of my sources are atheist, so they could be lying. Still, the first one brings up an interesting question. We find science backs up the Bible, but science doesn't back up evolution. Thus, the first one is the truth and not the myth.

You do know that people believed in gods before the bible was written don't you?

The god in the bible is nothing but an amalgamation of all the gods that came before

Except that you are ignorant of God's revelation that came before the Bible. You touched upon it, but used it incorrectly.

God revealed to humans the general and special revelation. First, we see all of his creation -- the limitless sky, the earth, the plants and creatures on earth on how they work. Because these things exist, then God must exist as he's the one who created them. This is how humans came to understand God and his creation before the Bible -- general revelation. Thus, your argument shows that creation came first. Afterward, there was special revelation and this is how the Bible was written.

A less ignorant person would fall down on their knees and say my God this is the truth. How could I have been so blind? I will have faith and believe in God's creation.

Funny how you call people ignorant yet you are blind to anything but your own beliefs

Up until then the Bible was accepted as science backed it up even though it wasn't a science book..

And still isn't a science book.

The science never has backed up the Bible- any more than it backs up the Norse creation myths.

 

[james bond]

Dr. Henry Morris, states, "One question remains. Assuming Satan to be the real source of the evolutionary concept, how did it originate in his mind? . . . A possible answer to this mystery could be that Satan, the father of lies, has not only deceived the whole world and the angelic hosts who followed him--he has even deceived himself! The only way he could really know about creation (just as the only way we can know about creation) was for God to tell him! . . . . He refused to believe and accept the Word of God concerning his own creation and place in God's economy . . . He therefore deceived himself into supposing that all things, including himself and including God, had been evolved by natural processes out of the primordial stuff of the universe. . . ." (Morris, Troubled Waters of Evolution, 1974, pp 74-75)."

He is correct in stating that we know about creation through the Bible or God's Word. Evolution came afterward as we see during the times of Paul, the Epicureans and Stoics.

http://www.huecotanks.com/debunk/devil.htm

"The Theory of Biological Evolution is most often associated with Charles Darwin, because it was Charles Darwin that proposed the mechanism of natural selection and accompanied that proposition with a large volume of empirical data providing evidence for biological evolution.

Darwin was not, however, the first person to propose an evolutionary explanation for the diversity of life on earth. In fact, evolutionary concepts about life date far back into history and arose in many different cultures. The Greeks developed a concept of evolution over 2,300 years ago that was basically equivalent to that of Charles Darwin's, but the early Christians opposed the idea and destroyed all of the works that promoted it or any other naturalistic explanations for earthly phenomena."

Understanding Evolution: History, Theory, Evidence, and Implictions

ETA: Both of my sources are atheist, so they could be lying. Still, the first one brings up an interesting question. We find science backs up the Bible, but science doesn't back up evolution. Thus, the first one is the truth and not the myth.

You do know that people believed in gods before the bible was written don't you?

The god in the bible is nothing but an amalgamation of all the gods that came before

Except that you are ignorant of God's revelation that came before the Bible. You touched upon it, but used it incorrectly.

God revealed to humans the general and special revelation. First, we see all of his creation -- the limitless sky, the earth, the plants and creatures on earth on how they work. Because these things exist, then God must exist as he's the one who created them. This is how humans came to understand God and his creation before the Bible -- general revelation. Thus, your argument shows that creation came first. Afterward, there was special revelation and this is how the Bible was written.

A less ignorant person would fall down on their knees and say my God this is the truth. How could I have been so blind? I will have faith and believe in God's creation.

Funny how you call people ignorant yet you are blind to anything but your own beliefs

Up until then the Bible was accepted as science backed it up even though it wasn't a science book..

And still isn't a science book.

The science never has backed up the Bible- any more than it backs up the Norse creation myths.

That's where you are wrong. For example, it was correct for Noah to release the raven before the dove. He was waiting for it to not come back and then he knew it was okay to release the dove. This gave him the best chance to find land. You can't even figure the simplest science out.

 

[BreezeWood]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep ... and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


primordial Earth,

was molten during its beginning development ...

 

[Syriusly]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep ... and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


primordial Earth,

was molten during its beginning development ...

Where is the water?

 

[Syriusly]

You do know that people believed in gods before the bible was written don't you?

The god in the bible is nothing but an amalgamation of all the gods that came before

Except that you are ignorant of God's revelation that came before the Bible. You touched upon it, but used it incorrectly.

God revealed to humans the general and special revelation. First, we see all of his creation -- the limitless sky, the earth, the plants and creatures on earth on how they work. Because these things exist, then God must exist as he's the one who created them. This is how humans came to understand God and his creation before the Bible -- general revelation. Thus, your argument shows that creation came first. Afterward, there was special revelation and this is how the Bible was written.

A less ignorant person would fall down on their knees and say my God this is the truth. How could I have been so blind? I will have faith and believe in God's creation.

Funny how you call people ignorant yet you are blind to anything but your own beliefs

Up until then the Bible was accepted as science backed it up even though it wasn't a science book..

And still isn't a science book.

The science never has backed up the Bible- any more than it backs up the Norse creation myths.

That's where you are wrong. For example, it was correct for Noah to release the raven before the dove. He was waiting for it to not come back and then he knew it was okay to release the dove. This gave him the best chance to find land. You can't even figure the simplest science out.

LOL- i do find it amusing that you call that science. "Oooh lets send out raven- and then a dove- we will call this 'science'"

LOL

 

[Votto]

The Big Bang was the beginning of space and time

At least, that is what science tells us.

So now God is the big bang.

God caused the Big Bang.

The space/time dimension we live in now is but one form of existence. Science tells us there are many others we have no way to comprehend.

Or maybe leprechauns.

Or maybe the Norse got it right.
The Origin of the Cosmos

Before there was soil, or sky, or any green thing, there was only the gaping abyss of Ginnungagap. This chaos of perfect silence and darkness lay between the homeland of elemental fire, Muspelheim, and the homeland of elemental ice, Niflheim.

Frost from Niflheim and billowing flames from Muspelheim crept toward each other until they met in Ginnungagap. Amid the hissing and sputtering, the fire melted the ice, and the drops formed themselves into Ymir (“Screamer”[1]), the first of the godlike but destructive giants. Ymir was a hermaphrodite and could reproduce asexually; when he slept, more giants leapt forth from his legs and from the sweat of his armpits.

As the frost continued to melt, a cow, Audhumla (“Abundance of Humming”[2]), emerged from it. She nourished Ymir with her milk, and she, in turn, was nourished by salt-licks in the ice. Her licks slowly uncovered Buri (“Progenitor”[3]), the first of the Aesir tribe of gods. Buri had a son named Bor (“Son”[4]), who married Bestla (perhaps “Wife”[5]), the daughter of the giant Bolthorn (“Baleful Thorn”[6]). The half-god, half-giant children of Bor and Bestla were Odin, who became the chief of the Aesir gods, and his two brothers, Vili and Ve.

Crazy story.

No, Genesis tells us that God created things in the order science tells us.

You know, the vegetation, then fish in the sea, then land animals, then man, etc.

Maybe this is why only the God of the Bible remains.

Really? LOL- do you really believe that? Well lets look at Genesis again- shall we?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
So at the very beginning- there were the 'heavens' and the earth- and darkness and water.
So does science say that earth and water existed before light?

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Then came light- including day and night- which is interesting because where did that light come from?- because according to Genesis the Sun doesn't come into existence until the fourth day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Then came 'God' created a vault separating the waters(?)- which was the sky- lets call it the atmosphere- separating the water of earth- from the water of?????. Hmmm does science say that the atmosphere came into existence after the oceans?


9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

Then there was land. So apparently before we had any land- we had all water- and atmosphere


11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

Then came vegetation- the third day- the day before there was our Sun.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Then came the Sun- and the Moon- and the stars- you know- the day after vegetation. How did that vegetation live- how did anything live on earth before there was the Sun? I am not talking chlorophyl here- I am talking a planet with no source of heat with everything completely frozen.


20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

Then there were creatures of the sea- fish and whales and seals- and birds- on the fifth day. While science does support the idea that 'fish' lived before land mammals- it doesn't support the idea that whales, and dolphins and seals existed before land animals.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

Then there was livestock and wild animals of the land- all created the same day. Again- science doesn't support the idea that livestock existed prior to wild animals- the science is pretty clear that domestication of animals- cows and horses and sheep- happened from wild stock relatively recently.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,a]">[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Then came man......after livestock......

Tell us again how the Biblical account of creation is supported by science?

Perhaps you can 'enlighten' us about how science says that there was light on Earth before the sun and stars came into existence and how plants existed before the sun?

You forgot the biggest objection of all. How can the universe only be 6000 or so years old when science says it is some 15 billion years old? Guess that one got passed the goalie, eh?

There are two ways to take Genesis if you are a person of faith. One is the literal interpretation of Genesis, the other figurative. Either way, the Bible is not a book of science. Creation is briefly covered in only a few chapters, while Cosmologists have libraries full of text books on knowledge regarding the origins of the universe.

Having said that, the story is much easier on the eyes than purple cows giving birth to pink lions in other religious folklore. You may have minor issues with the sequence, but for the most part it's pretty spot on compared to any other ancient story of our origins. Keep in mind, it was this same Bible that said we had a beginning, while the ancient Greeks thought the universe was eternal. In fact, scientist believed the universe to be eternal until very recently, around 1960. For it was then that science detected the Big Bang and our origins.

As for the literal defense of Genesis, Dr. Gerald Schroeder, who is part scientist and physicist, wrote a book called Genesis and the Big Bang. If you are interested, I can provide links on Youtube regarding his theories. For example, he does not believe the universe to only be 6000 years old. He came to this conclusion reading Rabbinical commentary on Genesis that predates modern science. You and I may read the King James version of the Bible and come to the conclusion that the universe is only 6000 years old according to the Bible, but Rabbis who read the text in Hebrew, with other passed down knowledge, did not. They felt that the earth was much, much older. His crowning contribution to the book comes from a theory about the days in Genesis to the calendar science gives us. His theory states that with each day of creation, time halved. That means day one was 8 billion years, day 2 was 4 billion years, day three was 2 billion years, etc. If you use his calendar based upon his scientific theory, the days of Genesis match those of science.

As for the days. What is a day without the sun? As you point out, the sun was not around for the first few days. The author also comes to the startling conclusion that there was light before the sun was made. So what on earth is going on here? Was the author stupid? I don't think so. Even a child could make up a better story than that. No, there is more to this than what you think you see, just like there is more going on there than the earth only being 6000 years old.

As for plants before the sun, I was taught in school growing up that no life could exist apart from the sun. Unfortunately, that was not true. Unbeknownst at the time, there was life at the deepest parts of the ocean that survive on nothing more than the minerals and warmth provided by the earth deep below.

Now there are two possibilities here, you are genuinely interested in this sort of thing and have an open mind, or you are just here to troll me. If the former, I can provide you more information, but if the later, I don't like wasting my time.

Let me know.

 

[Votto]

Dr. Henry Morris, states, "One question remains. Assuming Satan to be the real source of the evolutionary concept, how did it originate in his mind? . . . A possible answer to this mystery could be that Satan, the father of lies, has not only deceived the whole world and the angelic hosts who followed him--he has even deceived himself! The only way he could really know about creation (just as the only way we can know about creation) was for God to tell him! . . . . He refused to believe and accept the Word of God concerning his own creation and place in God's economy . . . He therefore deceived himself into supposing that all things, including himself and including God, had been evolved by natural processes out of the primordial stuff of the universe. . . ." (Morris, Troubled Waters of Evolution, 1974, pp 74-75)."

He is correct in stating that we know about creation through the Bible or God's Word. Evolution came afterward as we see during the times of Paul, the Epicureans and Stoics.

http://www.huecotanks.com/debunk/devil.htm

"The Theory of Biological Evolution is most often associated with Charles Darwin, because it was Charles Darwin that proposed the mechanism of natural selection and accompanied that proposition with a large volume of empirical data providing evidence for biological evolution.

Darwin was not, however, the first person to propose an evolutionary explanation for the diversity of life on earth. In fact, evolutionary concepts about life date far back into history and arose in many different cultures. The Greeks developed a concept of evolution over 2,300 years ago that was basically equivalent to that of Charles Darwin's, but the early Christians opposed the idea and destroyed all of the works that promoted it or any other naturalistic explanations for earthly phenomena."

Understanding Evolution: History, Theory, Evidence, and Implictions

ETA: Both of my sources are atheist, so they could be lying. Still, the first one brings up an interesting question. We find science backs up the Bible, but science doesn't back up evolution. Thus, the first one is the truth and not the myth.

You do know that people believed in gods before the bible was written don't you?

The god in the bible is nothing but an amalgamation of all the gods that came before

Except that you are ignorant of God's revelation that came before the Bible. You touched upon it, but used it incorrectly.

God revealed to humans the general and special revelation. First, we see all of his creation -- the limitless sky, the earth, the plants and creatures on earth on how they work. Because these things exist, then God must exist as he's the one who created them. This is how humans came to understand God and his creation before the Bible -- general revelation. Thus, your argument shows that creation came first. Afterward, there was special revelation and this is how the Bible was written.

A less ignorant person would fall down on their knees and say my God this is the truth. How could I have been so blind? I will have faith and believe in God's creation.

Funny how you call people ignorant yet you are blind to anything but your own beliefs

Up until then the Bible was accepted as science backed it up even though it wasn't a science book..

And still isn't a science book.

The science never has backed up the Bible- any more than it backs up the Norse creation myths.

The Bible is not a science book, but there is science based upon the Bible.

Ever hear of Biblical archaeology? It is the only scientific pursuit that I know of that is based only on a religious text.

Biblical archaeology is not based upon religious fundamentalism. In fact, there are some who are not religious in any way. No, they just appreciate the historical information in the Bible that no other culture was able or willing to record in that region during those times. For example, only the Bible talked about the Philistines and for a long time science questioned their existence. However, they then began to read the scriptures and was able to locate where they were and found them.

You would do yourself well to stop ridiculing a book that has literally changed the world and which most religions are now based, and concede that it should be respected.

 

[ChesBayJJ]

The Big Bang came first. More than 13 billion years ago.

Earth formed about 4.6 Billion years ago. By then, enough stars had formed and exploded to create the heavier elements that we have. Somewhat later, the first living matter came into existence, more than 3.5 billion years ago.

Evolution has been underway ever since.

 

[edthecynic]

We've established that creation came first

No you PONTIFICATED that creation came first. BIG difference!

 

[edthecynic]

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Then came 'God' created a vault separating the waters(?)- which was the sky- lets call it the atmosphere- separating the water of earth- from the water of?????. Hmmm does science say that the atmosphere came into existence after the oceans?


9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

Then there was land. So apparently before we had any land- we had all water- and atmosphere

Actually before the land was created we had an atmosphere SANDWICH! According to verse 7 there was water above and below the atmosphere, so according to bible "science" when you leave the Earth's atmosphere you hit water.

 

[james bond]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep ... and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


primordial Earth,

was molten during its beginning development ...

That looks more like the lake of fire (not on earth). Your pic does not fit the description of Genesis. Even the BBT is closer.

 

[Syriusly]

You do know that people believed in gods before the bible was written don't you?

The god in the bible is nothing but an amalgamation of all the gods that came before

Except that you are ignorant of God's revelation that came before the Bible. You touched upon it, but used it incorrectly.

God revealed to humans the general and special revelation. First, we see all of his creation -- the limitless sky, the earth, the plants and creatures on earth on how they work. Because these things exist, then God must exist as he's the one who created them. This is how humans came to understand God and his creation before the Bible -- general revelation. Thus, your argument shows that creation came first. Afterward, there was special revelation and this is how the Bible was written.

A less ignorant person would fall down on their knees and say my God this is the truth. How could I have been so blind? I will have faith and believe in God's creation.

Funny how you call people ignorant yet you are blind to anything but your own beliefs

Up until then the Bible was accepted as science backed it up even though it wasn't a science book..

And still isn't a science book.

The science never has backed up the Bible- any more than it backs up the Norse creation myths.

The Bible is not a science book, but there is science based upon the Bible.

Ever hear of Biblical archaeology? It is the only scientific pursuit that I know of that is based only on a religious text.

Biblical archaeology is not based upon religious fundamentalism. In fact, there are some who are not religious in any way. No, they just appreciate the historical information in the Bible that no other culture was able or willing to record in that region during those times. For example, only the Bible talked about the Philistines and for a long time science questioned their existence. However, they then began to read the scriptures and was able to locate where they were and found them.

You would do yourself well to stop ridiculing a book that has literally changed the world and which most religions are now based, and concede that it should be respected.

I actually like the Bible. I ridicule those who insist that the Bible must be interpreted literally. As a book with interesting stories that are sometimes related to actual history, and as a book of morality- some of which I agree with- it is certainly the single most important book in the world.

Biblical archeology is an interesting 'field'. Biblical archeology is mostly based upon proving that events in the Bible actually happened- it isn't really a 'pure' archeology. Which is why sometimes the results are questionable- because the persons doing the research have a bias in believing that what is in the Bible is true- so they tend to be biased in their interpretations of their results. That doesn't mean however that the research that they are doing is not valuable- only that their results have to stand up to the same scientific scrutiny as any other science, including peer review by those who are not 'biblical archeologists'.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

We've established that creation came first

No you PONTIFICATED that creation came first. BIG difference!

OK genius, if nothing was created, what's to evolve?

 

[james bond]

Except that you are ignorant of God's revelation that came before the Bible. You touched upon it, but used it incorrectly.

God revealed to humans the general and special revelation. First, we see all of his creation -- the limitless sky, the earth, the plants and creatures on earth on how they work. Because these things exist, then God must exist as he's the one who created them. This is how humans came to understand God and his creation before the Bible -- general revelation. Thus, your argument shows that creation came first. Afterward, there was special revelation and this is how the Bible was written.

A less ignorant person would fall down on their knees and say my God this is the truth. How could I have been so blind? I will have faith and believe in God's creation.

Funny how you call people ignorant yet you are blind to anything but your own beliefs

Up until then the Bible was accepted as science backed it up even though it wasn't a science book..

And still isn't a science book.

The science never has backed up the Bible- any more than it backs up the Norse creation myths.

The Bible is not a science book, but there is science based upon the Bible.

Ever hear of Biblical archaeology? It is the only scientific pursuit that I know of that is based only on a religious text.

Biblical archaeology is not based upon religious fundamentalism. In fact, there are some who are not religious in any way. No, they just appreciate the historical information in the Bible that no other culture was able or willing to record in that region during those times. For example, only the Bible talked about the Philistines and for a long time science questioned their existence. However, they then began to read the scriptures and was able to locate where they were and found them.

You would do yourself well to stop ridiculing a book that has literally changed the world and which most religions are now based, and concede that it should be respected.

I actually like the Bible. I ridicule those who insist that the Bible must be interpreted literally. As a book with interesting stories that are sometimes related to actual history, and as a book of morality- some of which I agree with- it is certainly the single most important book in the world.

Biblical archeology is an interesting 'field'. Biblical archeology is mostly based upon proving that events in the Bible actually happened- it isn't really a 'pure' archeology. Which is why sometimes the results are questionable- because the persons doing the research have a bias in believing that what is in the Bible is true- so they tend to be biased in their interpretations of their results. That doesn't mean however that the research that they are doing is not valuable- only that their results have to stand up to the same scientific scrutiny as any other science, including peer review by those who are not 'biblical archeologists'.

So now you believe in theistic evolution? Deism states that God allows the naturalistic processes that form life. Another view assumes God constantly used miraculous intervention to guide evolution. The later we know is led by Satan and not God. Where theistic evolution is wrong is that they state God exists, but that he wasn't involved in the creation of life. This is not what the Bible describes. The best interpretation is the simplest of special creation where God created his world in six days and rested on the seventh.

 

[Syriusly]

So now God is the big bang.

God caused the Big Bang.

The space/time dimension we live in now is but one form of existence. Science tells us there are many others we have no way to comprehend.

Or maybe leprechauns.

Or maybe the Norse got it right.
The Origin of the Cosmos

Before there was soil, or sky, or any green thing, there was only the gaping abyss of Ginnungagap. This chaos of perfect silence and darkness lay between the homeland of elemental fire, Muspelheim, and the homeland of elemental ice, Niflheim.

Frost from Niflheim and billowing flames from Muspelheim crept toward each other until they met in Ginnungagap. Amid the hissing and sputtering, the fire melted the ice, and the drops formed themselves into Ymir (“Screamer”[1]), the first of the godlike but destructive giants. Ymir was a hermaphrodite and could reproduce asexually; when he slept, more giants leapt forth from his legs and from the sweat of his armpits.

As the frost continued to melt, a cow, Audhumla (“Abundance of Humming”[2]), emerged from it. She nourished Ymir with her milk, and she, in turn, was nourished by salt-licks in the ice. Her licks slowly uncovered Buri (“Progenitor”[3]), the first of the Aesir tribe of gods. Buri had a son named Bor (“Son”[4]), who married Bestla (perhaps “Wife”[5]), the daughter of the giant Bolthorn (“Baleful Thorn”[6]). The half-god, half-giant children of Bor and Bestla were Odin, who became the chief of the Aesir gods, and his two brothers, Vili and Ve.

Crazy story.

No, Genesis tells us that God created things in the order science tells us.

You know, the vegetation, then fish in the sea, then land animals, then man, etc.

Maybe this is why only the God of the Bible remains.

Really? LOL- do you really believe that? Well lets look at Genesis again- shall we?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
So at the very beginning- there were the 'heavens' and the earth- and darkness and water.
So does science say that earth and water existed before light?

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Then came light- including day and night- which is interesting because where did that light come from?- because according to Genesis the Sun doesn't come into existence until the fourth day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Then came 'God' created a vault separating the waters(?)- which was the sky- lets call it the atmosphere- separating the water of earth- from the water of?????. Hmmm does science say that the atmosphere came into existence after the oceans?


9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

Then there was land. So apparently before we had any land- we had all water- and atmosphere


11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

Then came vegetation- the third day- the day before there was our Sun.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Then came the Sun- and the Moon- and the stars- you know- the day after vegetation. How did that vegetation live- how did anything live on earth before there was the Sun? I am not talking chlorophyl here- I am talking a planet with no source of heat with everything completely frozen.


20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

Then there were creatures of the sea- fish and whales and seals- and birds- on the fifth day. While science does support the idea that 'fish' lived before land mammals- it doesn't support the idea that whales, and dolphins and seals existed before land animals.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

Then there was livestock and wild animals of the land- all created the same day. Again- science doesn't support the idea that livestock existed prior to wild animals- the science is pretty clear that domestication of animals- cows and horses and sheep- happened from wild stock relatively recently.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,a]">[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Then came man......after livestock......

Tell us again how the Biblical account of creation is supported by science?

Perhaps you can 'enlighten' us about how science says that there was light on Earth before the sun and stars came into existence and how plants existed before the sun?

There are two ways to take Genesis if you are a person of faith. One is the literal interpretation of Genesis, the other figurative. Either way, the Bible is not a book of science. Creation is briefly covered in only a few chapters, while Cosmologists have libraries full of text books on knowledge regarding the origins of the universe.

And we are in a thread started by someone who insists on a literal interpretation of Genesis- and of the entire Bible including Noah's Ark and the flood.

And he is who I have been arguing with regarding. I agree- most Christians- and most Jews- look at Genesis figuratively and I really have no argument with that.

Then you went and claimed that
Genesis tells us that God created things in the order science tells us.

You know, the vegetation, then fish in the sea, then land animals, then man, etc.

Which led to me ridiculing that position- by pointing out that Genesis doesn't say exactly- because you left out the bits that don't fit that story.

If you don't try to argue that Genesis is somehow supported by science- when most of it is clearly not- then we don't have an argument.

 

[Syriusly]

Funny how you call people ignorant yet you are blind to anything but your own beliefs

Up until then the Bible was accepted as science backed it up even though it wasn't a science book..

And still isn't a science book.

The science never has backed up the Bible- any more than it backs up the Norse creation myths.

The Bible is not a science book, but there is science based upon the Bible.

Ever hear of Biblical archaeology? It is the only scientific pursuit that I know of that is based only on a religious text.

Biblical archaeology is not based upon religious fundamentalism. In fact, there are some who are not religious in any way. No, they just appreciate the historical information in the Bible that no other culture was able or willing to record in that region during those times. For example, only the Bible talked about the Philistines and for a long time science questioned their existence. However, they then began to read the scriptures and was able to locate where they were and found them.

You would do yourself well to stop ridiculing a book that has literally changed the world and which most religions are now based, and concede that it should be respected.

I actually like the Bible. I ridicule those who insist that the Bible must be interpreted literally. As a book with interesting stories that are sometimes related to actual history, and as a book of morality- some of which I agree with- it is certainly the single most important book in the world.

Biblical archeology is an interesting 'field'. Biblical archeology is mostly based upon proving that events in the Bible actually happened- it isn't really a 'pure' archeology. Which is why sometimes the results are questionable- because the persons doing the research have a bias in believing that what is in the Bible is true- so they tend to be biased in their interpretations of their results. That doesn't mean however that the research that they are doing is not valuable- only that their results have to stand up to the same scientific scrutiny as any other science, including peer review by those who are not 'biblical archeologists'.

So now you believe in theistic evolution? .

Where did I say that? I am really curious because I don't remember saying that.

LOL

 

[Syriusly]

So now God is the big bang.

God caused the Big Bang.

The space/time dimension we live in now is but one form of existence. Science tells us there are many others we have no way to comprehend.

Or maybe leprechauns.

Or maybe the Norse got it right.
The Origin of the Cosmos

Before there was soil, or sky, or any green thing, there was only the gaping abyss of Ginnungagap. This chaos of perfect silence and darkness lay between the homeland of elemental fire, Muspelheim, and the homeland of elemental ice, Niflheim.

Frost from Niflheim and billowing flames from Muspelheim crept toward each other until they met in Ginnungagap. Amid the hissing and sputtering, the fire melted the ice, and the drops formed themselves into Ymir (“Screamer”[1]), the first of the godlike but destructive giants. Ymir was a hermaphrodite and could reproduce asexually; when he slept, more giants leapt forth from his legs and from the sweat of his armpits.

As the frost continued to melt, a cow, Audhumla (“Abundance of Humming”[2]), emerged from it. She nourished Ymir with her milk, and she, in turn, was nourished by salt-licks in the ice. Her licks slowly uncovered Buri (“Progenitor”[3]), the first of the Aesir tribe of gods. Buri had a son named Bor (“Son”[4]), who married Bestla (perhaps “Wife”[5]), the daughter of the giant Bolthorn (“Baleful Thorn”[6]). The half-god, half-giant children of Bor and Bestla were Odin, who became the chief of the Aesir gods, and his two brothers, Vili and Ve.

Crazy story.

No, Genesis tells us that God created things in the order science tells us.

You know, the vegetation, then fish in the sea, then land animals, then man, etc.

Maybe this is why only the God of the Bible remains.

Really? LOL- do you really believe that? Well lets look at Genesis again- shall we?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
So at the very beginning- there were the 'heavens' and the earth- and darkness and water.
So does science say that earth and water existed before light?

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Then came light- including day and night- which is interesting because where did that light come from?- because according to Genesis the Sun doesn't come into existence until the fourth day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Then came 'God' created a vault separating the waters(?)- which was the sky- lets call it the atmosphere- separating the water of earth- from the water of?????. Hmmm does science say that the atmosphere came into existence after the oceans?


9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

Then there was land. So apparently before we had any land- we had all water- and atmosphere


11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

Then came vegetation- the third day- the day before there was our Sun.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Then came the Sun- and the Moon- and the stars- you know- the day after vegetation. How did that vegetation live- how did anything live on earth before there was the Sun? I am not talking chlorophyl here- I am talking a planet with no source of heat with everything completely frozen.


20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

Then there were creatures of the sea- fish and whales and seals- and birds- on the fifth day. While science does support the idea that 'fish' lived before land mammals- it doesn't support the idea that whales, and dolphins and seals existed before land animals.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

Then there was livestock and wild animals of the land- all created the same day. Again- science doesn't support the idea that livestock existed prior to wild animals- the science is pretty clear that domestication of animals- cows and horses and sheep- happened from wild stock relatively recently.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,a]">[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Then came man......after livestock......

Tell us again how the Biblical account of creation is supported by science?

Perhaps you can 'enlighten' us about how science says that there was light on Earth before the sun and stars came into existence and how plants existed before the sun?

As for plants before the sun, I was taught in school growing up that no life could exist apart from the sun. Unfortunately, that was not true. Unbeknownst at the time, there was life at the deepest parts of the ocean that survive on nothing more than the minerals and warmth provided by the earth deep below.w.

Unfortunately for you- that still doesn't help you with explaining how plants existed on earth- the 'day' before the Sun poofed into existence.

I don't quite understand what your argument with me is exactly- I am fairly confident you don't believe in a literal reading of Genesis- yet you keep trying to argue that if we twist Genesis just the right way, turn it to the light just right, and use a special decoder ring- Genesis does jive with science.

I am quite content with agreeing that Genesis is not meant to be a literal explanation of how the world was created- if you want to believe it was divinely inspired and I want to believe it was inspired by the minds of men living in the desert- I don't think we need to resolve that argument.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

if nothing was created, what's to evolve?

All life in earth.