When Jesus..........

[Disir]

tells a parable or utters a pronouncement, do those words come directly from the mind of God, or are they the thoughts of an individual bound by his constraints of his time and place?


I pulled this question from a book and thought it would make for an interesting discussion.

 

[MaxGrit]

Jesus is God the Son who's obedient to God the Father. He teaches what God the Father wants him to teach. He knows what God the Father wants him to know. Therefore, all he taught is from I AM, the eternal God.

 

[shart_attack]

One thing that a lot of people who aren't particularly fond of Christians—folks who have let their disdain for Christians so cloud their minds with hate that they blind themselves to some of the most beautiful New Testament Scriptures—fail to understand is that Christ our Savior was a master (indeed, The Master) storyteller.

He could weave the story of the beginning and ending of the universe for we the wee cretins of mankind into a quaint little parable about say, 10 virgins, the life and death of a rich man and a poor man and/ or a prodigal son.

The story of the Prodigal Son, for example, told by Christ in Luke 15:11-32 is on of the most poignantly beautiful allegories ever told about the rise and fall of mankind:

11And He said, A certain man had two sons:

12And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

25Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

26And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

27And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

29And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

In that parable are the following universal representations:

1. God is the prodigal son's father. God's love is longsuffering. No matter what His youngest son does to hurt himself, God will always love him with open arms if and when the son ever returns home.
2. The prodigal son, the younger of the two sons, is mankind. He may walk a long, circuitously dangerous path away from his Father (to say, Las Vegas ) but because of his sins, he will hopefully see that it is his Father alone and not this world who truly loves him.
3. The elder son is the devil. Satan was with God before us—mankind—was; satan is an angelic automaton who knows only serving God not because he loves Him, but merely because servitude is all the devil has ever known. Satan therefore does not understand the concept of Grace, which his and our Father God has extended to mankind. And that's exactly why the devil hates us.

Christ: The Master Storyteller.

 

[deltex1]

tells a parable or utters a pronouncement, do those words come directly from the mind of God, or are they the thoughts of an individual bound by his constraints of his time and place?


I pulled this question from a book and thought it would make for an interesting discussion.

I'm thinking, Jesus IS God...so His thoughts are FROM God.

 

[MaxGrit]

Satan isn't an automaton in that Satan also had the illusion of freewill that God allows Satan to have. Satan, in his pride, thought he could become like God.

Satan was made insane by sin, a finite creature that thinks he's equal to the infinite Creator.

Isaiah 14

When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

“How the oppressor has ceased,
the insolent fury ceased!
The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
the scepter of rulers,
that struck the peoples in wrath
with unceasing blows,
that ruled the nations in anger
with unrelenting persecution.
The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
they break forth into singing.
The cypresses rejoice at you,
the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
‘Since you were laid low,
no woodcutter comes up against us.’
Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
All of them will answer
and say to you:
‘You too have become as weak as we!
You have become like us!’
Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
the sound of your harps;
maggots are laid as a bed beneath you,
and worms are your covers.
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
You said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far reaches of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the far reaches of the pit.
Those who see you will stare at you
and ponder over you:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
who shook kingdoms,
who made the world like a desert
and overthrew its cities,
who did not let his prisoners go home?’
All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
each in his own tomb;
but you are cast out, away from your grave,
like a loathed branch,
clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword,
who go down to the stones of the pit,
like a dead body trampled underfoot.
You will not be joined with them in burial,
because you have destroyed your land,
you have slain your people.
“May the offspring of evildoers
nevermore be named!
Prepare slaughter for his sons
because of the guilt of their fathers,
lest they rise and possess the earth,
and fill the face of the world with cities.”

 

[shart_attack]

Satan isn't an automaton in that Satan also had the illusion of freewill that God allows Satan to have. Satan, in his pride, thought he could become like God.

All angels—heavenly and fallen—are automatons, smart guy.

They do not understand the concept of Grace — only Law.

That's why angels are NOT our friends.

 

[Disir]

Ok, so Jesus is divine and not human and divine.

 

[shart_attack]

Ok, so Jesus is divine and not human and divine.

Christ did not come to earth as an angel.

A true Christian believes He came to earth as God in the flesh.

And no one can call him/ herself a Christian if he/ she doesn't believe that He was that.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

 

[Disir]

Ok, so Jesus is divine and not human and divine.

Christ did not come to earth as an angel.

A true Christian believes He came to earth as God in the flesh.

And no one can call him/ herself a Christian if he/ she doesn't believe that He was that.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Well, they could and did at one time. It's the one nature/two nature argument. Give me a second and I'll put the question back in context.

 

[Penelope]

Ok, so Jesus is divine and not human and divine.

I use to believe in the trinity, but I no longer do. Jesus is very introspective as he likes to spend much time in meditation and prayer, which he teaches to his disciples. So Jesus is human.

 

[guno]

Satan isn't an automaton in that Satan also had the illusion of freewill that God allows Satan to have. Satan, in his pride, thought he could become like God.

Satan was made insane by sin, a finite creature that thinks he's equal to the infinite Creator.

Isaiah 14

When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

“How the oppressor has ceased,
the insolent fury ceased!
The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
the scepter of rulers,
that struck the peoples in wrath
with unceasing blows,
that ruled the nations in anger
with unrelenting persecution.
The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
they break forth into singing.
The cypresses rejoice at you,
the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
‘Since you were laid low,
no woodcutter comes up against us.’
Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
All of them will answer
and say to you:
‘You too have become as weak as we!
You have become like us!’
Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
the sound of your harps;
maggots are laid as a bed beneath you,
and worms are your covers.
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
You said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far reaches of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the far reaches of the pit.
Those who see you will stare at you
and ponder over you:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
who shook kingdoms,
who made the world like a desert
and overthrew its cities,
who did not let his prisoners go home?’
All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
each in his own tomb;
but you are cast out, away from your grave,
like a loathed branch,
clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword,
who go down to the stones of the pit,
like a dead body trampled underfoot.
You will not be joined with them in burial,
because you have destroyed your land,
you have slain your people.
“May the offspring of evildoers
nevermore be named!
Prepare slaughter for his sons
because of the guilt of their fathers,
lest they rise and possess the earth,
and fill the face of the world with cities.”

1. Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Specifically, the Bible says he will:

1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

 

[guno]

Ok, so Jesus is divine and not human and divine.

I use to believe in the trinity, but I no longer do. Jesus is very introspective as he likes to spend much time in meditation and prayer, which he teaches to his disciples. So Jesus is human.

In the years before the introduction of the Christian religion, Roman inhabitants of the empire worshipped the god Mithra for close to well over 400 years. Mithraism was regarded as the primary closing religion of the Roman Empire, and later eventually becoming the principal ranked competing rival to Christianity after its uprising.



The first written mention of Mitra dates back around 3,500 years in the Hindu Vedas, and then assumingly spread to Persia and reached west throughout the entire length of the Roman border to Scotland. It is still regarded as one of the most universal religions and greatest mystery cults in the Western World. Its mysteries that spread by the Romans likewise had a large significant importance on the development of early Christianity during its first four centuries.



Both Roman Mithraism, like Iranian Mithraism were cults of loyalty toward its king. Many prominent Roman figures were among its initiates, and were encouraged by various Roman emperors, such as Commodus, Aurelian, Diocletian, Galerius and Licinius.



In 307, a temple was even dedicated to Mithra and he officially became the "Protector of the Empire". The birthday of Mithra furthermore occurred during the Winter Solstice that celebrated the Natalis Solis Invicti onDecember 25th. This large celebration was known for signaling the birth of a young Sun god who sprang from a rock or a cave in the form of a newborn infant.



His triumph and ascension was celebrated at Easter, and as being the god of light, he also preformed the usual assortment of miracles; such as raising the dead, healing the sick, and casting out devils. Before returning to heaven, he celebrated a last supper with his 12 disciples on the zodiac. In memory of this, his worshippers partook in a sacramental meal of bread marked with a cross. It was called mizd, Latin missa, Greek maza, English mass.

In 313 CE, the official birthday of Jesus in alignment with Mithra also became December 25th. In the year 375 CE, Pope Julius I likewise declared the Nativity of the birth of Jesus as December 25th to align followers of the Sun god Mithra. This event became the very motivation as to why Jesus received his official birth anniversary on December 25th in accordance of the ancient pagan resurrecting solar godman in the Roman Empire, as before that, no one knew of his historical birth. St. Augustine even went as far as declaring that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same deity as he did.



Paul equally attested to knowing nothing about Jesus' birth, ministry and healings, which was alarming, as the origins of Christianity itself derive from Paul, and not Jesus. Paul doesn't even quote anything that Jesus is alleged to have said, nor did any of Jesus' original twelve disciples write of his teaching.



Afterwards, St. Augustine wrote that Christians ought not to celebrate Jesus' birth, like the heathens do on account of the Sun, but rather on account of god who made the Sun. The early Jesus was regarded so much a Sun god himself to the ancients, that the term Jesus of Nazareth (Nazaroth) in Hebrew is actually the twelve signs of the zodiac. No city by this name existed during this time. A church council further declared that it would be wrong to celebrate the birthday of Jesus as though he were a King Pharaoh.



Eventually though, this festival of "Christmas" became a civic holiday by the emperor Justinian where the events became so customary that it begun marking the beginning of the ceremonial year for Christians. The use of giving gifts, holly, mistletoe, yule logs, fruitcake, ringing bells, candles, wassail bowls, and decorating a tree however all derived from early pagan customs.



Many European countries still call this celebration "Yuletide" (or wheel of the Sun) A harvesting festival celebrated at the end of the year. None of which derive from Christian origins.

 

[Disir]

First let me tell you where the question came from. It's from a book by Philip Jenkins.

This is who he is:
Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion Philip Jenkins

and I have a couple of his books. I like him. He is a theist. I like him a lot. I don't care what anyone says.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Ok, so Jesus is divine and not human and divine.

Jesus the Christ, is God in the flesh. Emanuel. He will retain His physical body for eternity. He is the essence of God's love. God is Divine. Christ is man and Divine. God created, Christ inherits.
You know He is divine because He defeated death and came back.

Angels, like humans, are creations of God's and Christ's. Christ was with God when they were created and nothing would have been created without Christ.

And I don't mean to disagree, but just like us, Satan is not finite. He is spirit and spirits are eternal. He is never killed by Jesus or God. He will be chained and subsequently ends up in the Lake of Fire, along with his demon friends.

Angels understand more then we do because they are able to move among dimensions. They see more, and have been watching this unfold from the beginning. They were created before we were. 1/3 of them were thrown out of their natural habitat, Heaven, for revolting. And both sides have a clear understanding of grace. It is the death blow to Satan. Christ accomplished it for us, but Satan knows for it to be effective, humans have to accept the gift. Satan does everything he can to prevent that from happening.

In Rev. Christ addresses the angels assigned to the 7 churches being discussed, and the Bible tells to be kind to strangers, because angels may be among them. So they are not all bad, but the bad ones can be avoided by replacing them with the Holy Spirit. Darkness flees the light.

 

[Penelope]

First let me tell you where the question came from. It's from a book by Philip Jenkins.

This is who he is:
Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion Philip Jenkins

and I have a couple of his books. I like him. He is a theist. I like him a lot. I don't care what anyone says.

Well of course you can believe whatever you choose, From that short into, I had a hard time really figuring out what this guy felt, so did he

think those words come directly from the mind of God, or are they the thoughts of an individual bound by his constraints of his time and place?

 

[MaxGrit]

All angels—heavenly and fallen—are automatons, smart guy.

They do not understand the concept of Grace — only Law.

That's why angels are NOT our friends.

You don't know the meaning of the words you are using. stop wasting my time

 

[PostmodernProph]

Both Roman Mithraism, like Iranian Mithraism were cults of loyalty toward its king.

they did however differ greatly....all of the comparisons you claim between Mithraism and Christianity exist only in the post-Christian Roman Mithraism and not in the pre-Christian Mithraism.....sorry......
Refuting Mithras Myth Parallelism To Christianity With All I Am

 

[Disir]

"The ethical component was strongly marked in the theologians of the school of Antioch, who would be on the front lines of the Jesus Wars. Although they rejected any crude ideas of the separation of the natures,they fought to retain the notion of a human will in Christ. In their view, Christ actively resisted temptations and did good until he atoned for sin both through his death and by the example of his good works. By so doing, he showed ordinary people the way of salvation and offered the potential for human nature to be raised to the level of the divine. To use the title of one of the most famous Christian texts ever written, the Imitation of Christ, is not just possible but demanded. When modern liberal theologians protest that the exalted divine image of Jesus places his ethical teachings beyond attainable reach, they are reviving one of the oldest debates in Christendom.

Theology apart, the debates had powerful outcomes for what we term the real world--although theologians of the time would undoubtedly have argued that such a title could only be applied to the heavenly realms and not this transient life. The memory of a human Jesus has through out Western history repeatedly driven men and women to imitate him, through social activism ad political reform, not to mention the mystical quest and arts. In recent times, liberation theologies have portrayed a Jesus who so utterly empties himself of his divine privileges and honors that he walks the earth as one of the very poorest and most marginalized. He is at once an exemplar for the poor and their leader in struggles for justice. As Charles Sheldon famously argued in his 1897 novel of urban reform, In His Steps, Christians must always ask, "What would Jesus do?" Of course, myriad blunders in the history of the churches prove that they have not always asked that question, or produced an appropriate answer. But at least the aspiration never died.

To raise another ethical issue, how do we know how much weight to attach to the words of Christ in the New Testament? Just who do we hear speaking? Assume for the sake of argument that the scriptural text accurately records Jesus' sayings, which, of course, it may not always do. When Jesus tells a parable or utters a pronouncement, do those words come directly and literally from the mind of God, or are they the thoughts of an individual bound by the constraints of this time and place? To take a specific example, if Jesus really was speaking with divine authority, then believers need to take very seriously the radical division that he proclaims between light and darkness, together with a literal belief i the devil and demons. To assert Christ's humanity is not to undervalue or ignore his teachings, but it must make later believers think more carefully about the authority those words carry and how they can be applied to modern circumstances.

Christ the divine, or Christ as divine-and human? The best way of understanding the two approaches is to think what each side thought it would lose if its opponents triumphed. For each, the central idea of the faith was the title Emmanuel, God with us. Each in it's way feared any theology that would impair human access to the fullness of the divine, but each viewed the solution in quite different ways. For Antiochenes, a One Nature creed that made Christ thoroughly divine uprooted him from humanity and removed him from any sense of human identification. Such a statement also raise the monstrous absurdity of God the Creator suffering and dying, of being "passible," in theological terms. One Nature believers, in contrast, wanted to guarantee the intimate solidarity linking God to humanity. This linkage must be a total union, rather than conjunction or association. They feared weakening the image of Christ so that he became anything less than a manifestation of God within us. Aspiring to the same goal, the two sides chose very different paths."
pg 8-10

 

[guno]

Both Roman Mithraism, like Iranian Mithraism were cults of loyalty toward its king.

they did however differ greatly....all of the comparisons you claim between Mithraism and Christianity exist only in the post-Christian Roman Mithraism and not in the pre-Christian Mithraism.....sorry......
Refuting Mithras Myth Parallelism To Christianity With All I Am

It's funny how the goyim use the Torah which the have no knowledge of to prove the mamzer jesus son of mary the hairdresser and whore and a roman solder was a godman
Why Jews Don t Believe In Jesus why Jews reject Jesus

 

[shart_attack]

All angels—heavenly and fallen—are automatons, smart guy.

They do not understand the concept of Grace — only Law.

That's why angels are NOT our friends.

You don't know the meaning of the words you are using. stop wasting my time

The only one wasting anyone's time here is you, bud.

Stop trolling my friend Disir's thread.