What would 'Palestine' be like today if the Jews never came back?

[Phoenall]

It's very hard to tell what Palestine would have been like with no Jewish invasion.
I know a lot less people would be dead.

The Jewish Invasion lie is Palestinian Propaganda (which you are an expert in)
The European Jews were invited by the British who also facilitated their immigration. The only invasion was that of the 5 Arab states who came to attack Israel. The Muslim Arab invasion that is.

I love a good lie - mostly because it's really easy to make you look stupid.

"Exodus 1947" Illegal Immigration Ship | Jewish Virtual Library

The ship Exodus 1947 became a symbol of Aliya Bet — illegal immigration. After World War II, illegal immigration increased and the British authorities decided to stop it by sending the ships back to the ports of embarkation in Europe. The first ship to which this policy was applied was the Exodus 1947.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The ship sailed from the port of Site, near Marseilles, on July 11, 1947, with 4,515 immigrants, including 655 children, on board. As soon as it left the territorial waters of France, British destroyers accompanied it. On July 18, near the coast of Palestine but outside territorial waters, the British rammed the ship and boarded it, while the immigrants put up a desperate defense. Two immigrants and a crewman were killed in the battle, and 30 were wounded. The ship was towed to Haifa, where the immigrants were forced onto deportation ships bound for France. At Port-de-Bouc, in southern France, the would-be immigrants remained in the ships’ holds for 24 days during a heat wave, refusing to disembark despite the shortage of food, the crowding and the abominable sanitary conditions. The French government refused to force them off the boat. Eventually, the British decided to return the would-be immigrants to Germany, and on August 22 the ship left for the port of Hamburg, then in the British occupation zone. The immigrants were forcibly taken off and transported to two camps near Lubeck.

DO explain how it could be illegal when the owners of Palestine had extended the right to migrate to Palestine to all the worlds Jews. The British authorities overstepped the mark in denying the Jews the right to disembark and live in Palestine, while at the same time turning a blind eye to illegal arab muslim migration into Palestine.

Or do you have some secret documents that show the LoN scapped the right of the Jews to migrate to Palestine and told no one about it. That the UN had passed a resolution banning the Jews from migrating to Palestine and taking up the offer of a resurrected JEWISH NATIONAL HOME.

 

[Phoenall]

You really do just sit there and invent the history you want, don't you phoney.

His bullshit, isn't even good bullshit.

Catches you out in your lies every time doesn't it, from your LIE about Jews gassing to death Palestinians to your LIE about hamas responding to Israeli attacks 72 hours later. Team Palestine once more uses the ISLAMONAZI rule book on disinformation by making false claims against those who destroy their arguments

 

[docmauser1]

The historical record shows Palestinian-Arabs and Palestinian-Jews got along in relative peace for generations, until the Zionist migration, which imported all the hostility into the area.

Blessed Winnie Churchill - "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

 

[Beelzebub]

Sorry Phoney.
Not only can I not take you seriously any longer, but I have to laugh a little when I see you posting, remembering your now notorious recounting of what you think 'history' records.

 

[toastman]

Maybe not the Jews on that ship, but

Sorry Phoney.
Not only can I not take you seriously any longer, but I have to laugh a little when I see you posting, remembering your now notorious recounting of what you think 'history' records.

Will you ever stop whining??

 

[Hossfly]

Maybe not the Jews on that ship, but

Sorry Phoney.
Not only can I not take you seriously any longer, but I have to laugh a little when I see you posting, remembering your now notorious recounting of what you think 'history' records.

Will you ever stop whining??

Whining is a deflection to cover up his bedwetting.

 

[Challenger]

There would have been no British occupation, or any LoN if there had not been a Jewish return to Israel...

Please do us both a favour and read up on the subject before posting this sort of nonsense. When the Turks declared for the Central Powers this was a direct threat to the British controlled Persian oil fields which supplied the Royal Navy and the Suez Canal which was a vital communications link to British India. Jewish "return" or no Jewish "return" there would have been a British occupation. See the Armistice of Mudros October 1918.

 

[Challenger]

DO explain how it could be illegal when the owners of Palestine had extended the right to migrate to Palestine to all the worlds Jews. The British authorities overstepped the mark in denying the Jews the right to disembark and live in Palestine, while at the same time turning a blind eye to illegal arab muslim migration into Palestine.

Or do you have some secret documents that show the LoN scapped the right of the Jews to migrate to Palestine and told no one about it. That the UN had passed a resolution banning the Jews from migrating to Palestine and taking up the offer of a resurrected JEWISH NATIONAL HOME.

Can't be explained because it never happened. Britain facilitated Jewish immigration into Palestine until they realised they'd made a huge mistake. The 1939 White Paper was an attempt to rectify this mistake. Immigration was restricted, which made all those evading immigration through official channels illegal immigrants which the British were well within their rights to prevent entry to and to deport when found within Palestine. There was never any document or treaty giving Jewish people a specific right to enter Palestine. In 1945 President Truman prevented those European Jewish refugees who wanted to (the overwhelmning majority), from migrating to America. This left them nowhere else to go but Palestine.

 

[Coyote]

[QUOTE="Phoenall, post: 9673740]
Your constant agreement with Palestinian BLOOD LIBELS for one, [/quote]

Agreed with what "BLOOD LIBELS"?

Def: Blood libel (also blood accusation) is an accusation that Jews kidnapped and murdered the children of Christians to use their blood as part of their religious rituals during Jewish holidays.

your constant placing of the blame on Israel for the deaths of Palestinians while ignoring the facts surrounding the start of the problems.

Constant? I can't be held responsible for your inability to read. Blame your teachers.

The calling of Jews in an abusive derogatory manner for atrocities they have never committed.

Are you delusional? What are you talking about? A few links might help make your case here.

The denial of any evidence that shows the Israelis were within the law in their treatment of terrorists and child murderers.

I don't know - that's really broad buddy - in fact, it borders on a psychotic rant.. I mean, take for example the way Palestinian children are treated in the justice system compared to Jewish children. Hard to see how that dual system of treating children for the same crime can be justified...but I'm sure you'll find a way.

Where is your admittance of being wrong over the murder of 3 Israeli boys, were is your admittance of being wrong over the disclosure of hamas using human shields. Where is your admittance of being wrong in being shown hamas is the one in breach of the cease fires every time, where is your admittance that hamas is a terrorist organisation. See the list is endless of your one sided anti semitic Jew hatred.

What the hell are you talking about? You really are a nutter. How about you provide a few quotes to support your claims.

 

[Coyote]

There would have been no British occupation, or any LoN if there had not been a Jewish return to Israel. So the land would have still been Turkish Ottoman and the arab muslims would be slaves. The few Jews and Christians in Palestine would be the owners of the land and employing the dysfunctional arab muslims as menials. The blood would have flown down the gutters as the surrounding arab nationalists tried to gain control and the Ottomans would have been ruthless in their methods of control. There would have been no Pakistan as the British would not need to send troops to Palestine, no Iraq as it would have been just another part of the Ottoman empire. No Syria, no Jordan, no Egypt, no Iran. So no M.E. problems would have arisen other than inter muslim ones, so this board would not be here and team Palestine would not exist, nor would their claims of the holocaust being used to mooch money from the US. Very doubtful is the U.N. would even exist as there would have been no need for one. Be more in depth in your views and go back to the origins of the Jewish migration to Palestine and you will see that the Ottomans instigated the whole mess.

I just want to preserve this, in case you delete it, after someone tells you how idiotic you are.

So I can return and read it anytime I need a chuckle.

Ya...it's bizarre. The Ottomans would still have fallen, the Brits would still have control over the area....all that is independent of large scale Jewish immigration or Zionism.

 

[teddyearp]

Actually, to get back on topic - this topic kind of reminds me of a type of science fiction exploring alternate histories if certain things hadn't occurred or decisions made differently.

If there had been no massive Jewish immigration to populate and support the formation of Israel - what would have happened when the Mandate left? Would they have left? Would Arab nationalism have been the same?

Now this is what I was looking for. Something thought provoking. Not name calling (me bad too).

I think the Mandate would have left by one means or another. However Arab nationalism all over the M.E. would possibly be a much different thing than what we see today since some of the most extreme parts of Islam we see today seem to blame or use the "Palestinian struggle" as their call to arms.

I am still of the opinion that the region would be much more of a back water and not nearly as developed as it is today.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Jewish historian Tom Segev, gives a reasonable account of what really went on between 1918-1948 and it's easy to extrapolate a possible alternative history from this, as does Jonathan Schneer in "The Balfour Declaration" or James Barr's "A line in the Sand"

One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate: Amazon.co.uk: Tom Segev: Books

Cool.
I hope its good. I've ordered it. The blurb does seem to be heading in the direction of "The British: It's all THEIR fault."

 

[teddyearp]

There would have been no British occupation, or any LoN if there had not been a Jewish return to Israel. So the land would have still been Turkish Ottoman and the arab muslims would be slaves. The few Jews and Christians in Palestine would be the owners of the land and employing the dysfunctional arab muslims as menials. The blood would have flown down the gutters as the surrounding arab nationalists tried to gain control and the Ottomans would have been ruthless in their methods of control. There would have been no Pakistan as the British would not need to send troops to Palestine, no Iraq as it would have been just another part of the Ottoman empire. No Syria, no Jordan, no Egypt, no Iran. So no M.E. problems would have arisen other than inter muslim ones, so this board would not be here and team Palestine would not exist, nor would their claims of the holocaust being used to mooch money from the US. Very doubtful is the U.N. would even exist as there would have been no need for one. Be more in depth in your views and go back to the origins of the Jewish migration to Palestine and you will see that the Ottomans instigated the whole mess.

I must ask where you get this theory. I do not see any connection with the creation of the LoN (Woodrow Wilson's pet project) and the Jewish return to Israel. And the British, I thought, were already at war with the Ottoman Empire, so at the end of the war there still would have been no Ottomans. The 'Mandates' were both for the French and the British after they won the war.

 

[teddyearp]

Tinmore, all your video does for me is to strengthen my opinion that the British are part and parcel to blame for the mess we have now. On the one hand they made promises to the Arabs with the 'correspondence' and then to the Jews with the Balfour Declaration. However neither of those points have much bearing on the speculative question I have asked here.

 

[Coyote]

Actually, to get back on topic - this topic kind of reminds me of a type of science fiction exploring alternate histories if certain things hadn't occurred or decisions made differently.

If there had been no massive Jewish immigration to populate and support the formation of Israel - what would have happened when the Mandate left? Would they have left? Would Arab nationalism have been the same?

Now this is what I was looking for. Something thought provoking. Not name calling (me bad too).

I think the Mandate would have left by one means or another. However Arab nationalism all over the M.E. would possibly be a much different thing than what we see today since some of the most extreme parts of Islam we see today seem to blame or use the "Palestinian struggle" as their call to arms.

I am still of the opinion that the region would be much more of a back water and not nearly as developed as it is today.

I agree - the Mandate would have to have ended. Colonial rule all over the world was in it's twilight. I do agree that the Palestinian/Israel issue - or more precisely it's lack of resolution, fueled much of the conflicts in the region.

As to whether it would have remained a backwater, it's really hard to say. I heard that many of those areas - such as Gaza and Haifa were beautiful and prosperous regions before the conflict. There is no doubt that within Israel, the Jews have made a successful and prosperous nation that is culterally rich. Would it still be a backwater if it hadn't happened? Maybe...does it really matter if it's a "back water" or not as long as the people living there cherish what they have?

 

[teddyearp]

Nice. But to continue in the 'theme' of this thread, I wonder if the region would also be peaceful enough to enjoy the visits of thousands of western tourists to see the ancient sites, Jerusalem, in nice hotels, etc., had it just been left to the Arabs?

As much as I would like to see the Pyramids, I will not go there. As much as I would like to see what is left of the Hanging gardens of Babylon, I will not set foot in that country either. Beirut I have heard is a wonderful city, as is Damascus; but I will not set foot in those countries. Constantinople (now known as Istanbul) is a very historic city; I would not go there for a visit. One of my flights gave a layover there; but that is all I think I would do. And honestly, I will not even visit Bethlehem nor Jericho.

Why? Because I would not at all feel safe as a 'westerner' citizen of the United States since there are factions in all those countries who want me dead.

 

[Coyote]

Nice. But to continue in the 'theme' of this thread, I wonder if the region would also be peaceful enough to enjoy the visits of thousands of western tourists to see the ancient sites, Jerusalem, in nice hotels, etc., had it just been left to the Arabs?

As much as I would like to see the Pyramids, I will not go there. As much as I would like to see what is left of the Hanging gardens of Babylon, I will not set foot in that country either. Beirut I have heard is a wonderful city, as is Damascus; but I will not set foot in those countries. Constantinople (now known as Istanbul) is a very historic city; I would not go there for a visit. One of my flights gave a layover there; but that is all I think I would do. And honestly, I will not even visit Bethlehem nor Jericho.

Why? Because I would not at all feel safe as a 'westerner' citizen of the United States since there are factions in all those countries who want me dead.

Egypt was peaceful and had a huge tourist industry for years, it has only been in recent years that it has been an issue. Why would it be less peaceful if there had been no Israel? One thing is likely- you would not have had the constant canker of the IP conflict to feed terrorism.

 

[Ropey]

The title of the thread and the participation in it are clearer than the discussion itself.

 

[Indofred]

Why? Because I would not at all feel safe as a 'westerner' citizen of the United States since there are factions in all those countries who want me dead.

They want Americans dead because Americans, directly or by shipping arms to Israel, has killed a lot of Muslims.
Blame your government.

 

[Phoenall]

Sorry Phoney.
Not only can I not take you seriously any longer, but I have to laugh a little when I see you posting, remembering your now notorious recounting of what you think 'history' records.

Your anger is showing again, and your inability to debate without resorting to childish personal attacks. How about a reply to the arguments then that show my links to be false.