What purpose does God Serve?

[Avatar4321]

If humans are capable of doing things on our own....creating technology...creating medical "savior" procedures....Performing miracles using medicine and other techniques....etc

What is the purpose of God? In any religion?

Jamie

What makes you think we did any of those things on our own?

Did we create the metal ore that goes into our machines?

Did we create the materials used in our buildings?

Did we create the laws of nature by which these things are accomplished?

Did we create our minds? our hands?

Exactly when have we done anything "on our own"?

Can we make ourselves immortal? Can we give ourselves power?

I think it's rather naive to assume we have done much of anything.

You are using an argumentative fallacy here by asking so many questions...to justify a point. I believe its called The Red Herring and/or Plurium interrogationum....and about 3 others.....So the only thing that I am going to say to that is that I think our minds are what create everything in front of us using a collective consciousness that links us all together. Remember, I said "I think" and you cannot argue something that is my personal opinion.

A red herring is an argument meant to distract the audience from the issue at question. My questions directly address the main premise of your argument. There is nothing distracting about it. I am pointing out that your position is not substantiated. In fact, your argument is circular. God is useless since we can do things on our own. We do things on our own because God is useless. Your assuming what you're concluding.

You need to establish that we do things on our own before you can claim that God is unnecessary. And I pointed out a list of reasons why your claim is unsubstantiated.

And I've noticed you still havent done anything to establish that man does things on our own.

A mystery is different in every religion. There are mystery schools...mystery religions...and each is different. To Wiccans there are mysteries that are completely different from Islamic mystery traditions. It just depends on which tradition you are talking about. What you believe could be a mystery to everyone else because it is your own personal belief..and if you explained it clearly enough to someone, they might understand a surface level understanding of what it is that you believe, but they will never understand to the depth that you do.. no matter if you are both Christians or both Muslims. Personal belief is very different from person to person....but the doctrine and same basic principals might apply.

Jamie

How is a mystery different in every religion? It has the same definition. The mystery being examined may be different but a mystery in and of itself is exactly the same. It's something that has to be learned through study and divine revelation. It's supposed to be questioned and investigated. It's supposed to be learned through personal revelation. Those who dont understand the mysteries are those who dont seek to know them, in whatever tradition you have.

 

[Avatar4321]

i suppose i would ask why do "believers" ( the religious) seek to persuade "believers" (read those who believe in themselves) that there IS a god(s) or goddess(es)?

Because there is a God and we delight in Truth. The Truth sets us free. The Truth brings joy in our lives and when we feel that kind of joy we cant help but want to share it with all that will listen.

fanatical? how is putting the second set of believers to death, shunning them, belittling them, physically attacking them, and even burning down their homes NOT fanatical?

Good question. Why do you do that?

Again, you are using an argumentative fallacy here to avoid the conclusive answer.

Vincubus is sitting on the floor behind me and he wants to know when you are going to stop bearing false witness and when are you going to learn to comprehend. Deliberately misunderstanding is an act of bearing false witness he says.

Jamie

I answered his questions. He asked a loaded question. He gets an appropriate answer. If he thinks turning his false accusations back on himself is bearing false witness, he is the pot calling the kettle black.

If you dont want argumentative responses to questions, stop asking loaded questions.

 

[vincubus]

i suppose i would ask why do "believers" ( the religious) seek to persuade "believers" (read those who believe in themselves) that there IS a god(s) or goddess(es)?

Because there is a God and we delight in Truth. The Truth sets us free. The Truth brings joy in our lives and when we feel that kind of joy we cant help but want to share it with all that will listen.

fanatical? how is putting the second set of believers to death, shunning them, belittling them, physically attacking them, and even burning down their homes NOT fanatical?

Good question. Why do you do that?

good, then prove this god of yours without using your bible. you cannot. you believe, and thus that creates existence. truth? your entire statement that there is even a god is the opposite of truth, since you manufacture the evidence that suits your purpose. that is anything but truth.

now, your first answer proves the fanaticism i mentioned in the second paragraph, so you lump yourself in with the fanatics who persecute those who dont believe as you do, so then it is you who burns their houses, attacks them physically, kills them out of hand, and shuns them.

so indeed, why do you do that?

your implication that i have done any of these things is bearing false witness. dont pitifully try to justify your deliberate lying. you are the one pretending to be a christian, and you will be judged-like it or not-by its standards. there is no qualifier to "though shalt not bear false witness..." none. perhaps you should tell your god you dont exactly like all of his commandments, eh? LOL!!

you perpetuate the pattern of the typical egotistical arrogant pretend christian. that didn't take nearly as long as i had thought it would. others have lasted much longer. you should work on that.

 

[Amanda]

i suppose i would ask why do "believers" ( the religious) seek to persuade "believers" (read those who believe in themselves) that there IS a god(s) or goddess(es)?

Because there is a God and we delight in Truth. The Truth sets us free. The Truth brings joy in our lives and when we feel that kind of joy we cant help but want to share it with all that will listen.

fanatical? how is putting the second set of believers to death, shunning them, belittling them, physically attacking them, and even burning down their homes NOT fanatical?

Good question. Why do you do that?

good, then prove this god of yours without using your bible. you cannot. you believe, and thus that creates existence. truth? your entire statement that there is even a god is the opposite of truth, since you manufacture the evidence that suits your purpose. that is anything but truth.

now, your first answer proves the fanaticism i mentioned in the second paragraph, so you lump yourself in with the fanatics who persecute those who dont believe as you do, so then it is you who burns their houses, attacks them physically, kills them out of hand, and shuns them.

so indeed, why do you do that?

your implication that i have done any of these things is bearing false witness. dont pitifully try to justify your deliberate lying. you are the one pretending to be a christian, and you will be judged-like it or not-by its standards. there is no qualifier to "though shalt not bear false witness..." none. perhaps you should tell your god you dont exactly like all of his commandments, eh? LOL!!

you perpetuate the pattern of the typical egotistical arrogant pretend christian. that didn't take nearly as long as i had thought it would. others have lasted much longer. you should work on that.

As is your implication that Avatar has done any of those things.

 

[Avatar4321]

good, then prove this god of yours without using your bible. you cannot. you believe, and thus that creates existence. truth? your entire statement that there is even a god is the opposite of truth, since you manufacture the evidence that suits your purpose. that is anything but truth.

You seem to be under the false impression that I think that every thing there is to know about God is found in the Bible. This, as i said, is false. I accept the Bible as scripture as I accept other book as scriptures because there are more than one witness to Jesus Christ.

See, my evidence for God's existance is what I've seen, heard, felt. I've recieved revelation. Ive felt the glory and love of God overwhelm me. Ive seen it act the same in others. I've seen miracles. Ive been healed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I am a witness. and I am more than willing to share my witness with you and with others. But I dont expect you to take my word for it. I encourage you to seek out God and recieve a witness for yourself. I expect you to seek the Truth and recieve Divine revelation. And anyone can know if they do what God has asked them to do to learn it.

Unfortunately, few bother to experiment on the Word of God.

now, your first answer proves the fanaticism i mentioned in the second paragraph, so you lump yourself in with the fanatics who persecute those who dont believe as you do, so then it is you who burns their houses, attacks them physically, kills them out of hand, and shuns them.

And this is exactly my point. You bear false witness against others, poison the well, and then get upset when people reverse your question onto you.

Can you prove Ive burned anyones house? Can you name a person Ive attacked? Or killed? Can you tell me who I've shunned?

The fact that I am talking to you should be clear indication of anyone reading that I am willing to talk to anyone about nearly any subject. I havent shunned you who declares himself rational and my enemy. But Im not your enemy. I am the enemy of no one. If I havent shunned you, who exactly am I supposed to have shunned?

The very point that you cant answer those questions demonstrates the fallacy of your accusations.

so indeed, why do you do that?

You've provided less evidence for you accusation than I have for the existance of God.

your implication that i have done any of these things is bearing false witness. dont pitifully try to justify your deliberate lying. you are the one pretending to be a christian, and you will be judged-like it or not-by its standards. there is no qualifier to "though shalt not bear false witness..." none. perhaps you should tell your god you dont exactly like all of his commandments, eh? LOL!!

Amy I lying for presuming those who falsely accuse others are merely projecting their weaknesses onto others to justify themselves? Am I lying for noting that you indeed are fanatical in your hatred for Christians? I am more than certain God knows exactly what I was doing since it's gone right over your head. Not surprising though, hypocrites tend to be the last to recognize that weakness in themselves.

you perpetuate the pattern of the typical egotistical arrogant pretend christian. that didn't take nearly as long as i had thought it would. others have lasted much longer. you should work on that.

You confuse confidence with egotism. Not surprising. I am not going to pretend God doesnt exist so you feel better about your anger toward Christians. Who am I to deny what I've experienced and seen? Who am I to deny God?

Now since you have demonstrated a complete inability to discuss the topic at hand and would rather simply attack me and anyone else for merely believing different than you, I think I will go discuss some other things.

 

[Foxfyre]

i suppose i would ask why do "believers" ( the religious) seek to persuade "believers" (read those who believe in themselves) that there IS a god(s) or goddess(es)?

Most don't actually. It would not occur to me to discuss the subject unless invited to do so on an internet thread or other appropriate setting or during those times I am given a wide opening to share my faith with a stranger or someone I don't know well. There are Christians who are convinced that it is their duty to introduce others to Christ and, while there are always exceptions and a few unpleasant types, most do so out of genuine concern for the well being of the other person rather than for any personal benefit.

But the Christian who shares his/her faith almost always is offering a gift to the other person. The nonbeliever who seeks to belittle or demean or disparage the faith of another appears to be intending to destroy or take away that faith. I would like to know where that kind of unkindness comes from.

fanatical? how is putting the second set of believers to death, shunning them, belittling them, physically attacking them, and even burning down their homes NOT fanatical

That kind of behavior, while rare among Christians throughout history, has certainly happened and it certainly was fanatical and is fanatical. There is no justification for it and there is no justification for any of other religions or state mandated Atheism requiring hate, humiliation, cruelty, torture, mutilation, murder, and abolishment of many basic human rights that we take for granted. I for one am very happy that Christianity, except for tiny, rare, separated pockets, has evolved out of that hateful ignorance phase and no longer practices it. It has not practiced it for a very long time now.

But Christianity now often finds itself running thrift shops, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, orphanages for parentless or savaged children, ministering in leper colonies and to AIDS sufferers in the last stages of their diseases. It is generally some of the most fundamenalist, narrow-minded, 'fanatical' types that go into some of the most unpleasant places on Earth to minister and teach and provide hope to some of the world's poorest people. Meanwhile, those terrible Christians of old have settled great cities, and built great universities and founded great hospitals and other monuments for the betterment of humankind.

Perhaps you can point me to groups of non-believers who have accomplished so much.

 

[Amanda]

i suppose i would ask why do "believers" ( the religious) seek to persuade "believers" (read those who believe in themselves) that there IS a god(s) or goddess(es)?

Most don't actually. It would not occur to me to discuss the subject unless invited to do so on an internet thread or other appropriate setting or during those times I am given a wide opening to share my faith with a stranger or someone I don't know well. There are Christians who are convinced that it is their duty to introduce others to Christ and, while there are always exceptions and a few unpleasant types, most do so out of genuine concern for the well being of the other person rather than for any personal benefit.

But the Christian who shares his/her faith almost always is offering a gift to the other person. The nonbeliever who seeks to belittle or demean or disparage the faith of another appears to be intending to destroy or take away that faith. I would like to know where that kind of unkindness comes from.

fanatical? how is putting the second set of believers to death, shunning them, belittling them, physically attacking them, and even burning down their homes NOT fanatical

That kind of behavior, while rare among Christians throughout history, has certainly happened and it certainly was fanatical and is fanatical. There is no justification for it and there is no justification for any of other religions or state mandated Atheism requiring hate, humiliation, cruelty, torture, mutilation, murder, and abolishment of many basic human rights that we take for granted. I for one am very happy that Christianity, except for tiny, rare, separated pockets, has evolved out of that hateful ignorance phase and no longer practices it. It has not practiced it for a very long time now.

But Christianity now often finds itself running thrift shops, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, orphanages for parentless or savaged children, ministering in leper colonies and to AIDS sufferers in the last stages of their diseases. It is generally some of the most fundamenalist, narrow-minded, 'fanatical' types that go into some of the most unpleasant places on Earth to minister and teach and provide hope to some of the world's poorest people. Meanwhile, those terrible Christians of old have settled great cities, and built great universities and founded great hospitals and other monuments for the betterment of humankind.

Perhaps you can point me to groups of non-believers who have accomplished so much.

I'd be interested in that as well. TIA.

 

[vincubus]

And this is exactly my point. You bear false witness against others, poison the well, and then get upset when people reverse your question onto you.

son-and i say this, despite your verbosity, as i feel when talking to you i am dealing with my three year old-i do not profess to be a christian. you do. regardless of whether i "sin" as per your system, that never will be any justification for you to throw your christ over your shoulder. you have shown me nothing, especially as i am not upset except that you attempted to bear false witness, giving lie to your stated convictions. dont even try to spin the whole episode any other way. you simply tried to deceive, bear false witness, lie...how ever you wish to pose it. and then tried to justify the act. Lol!! and then try and pass yourself off as a christian. BAH!

i am upset that pretend christians like you try to hide your rotting soul behind voluminous posts that aren't enough cologne to masks the stench. you and your ilk shame the many fine christians i know and would die for.

you need to get off the fence. you have no integrity. none.

btw, you claim that you were...what, out strolling one day, and suddenly the concept of god popped into your head almost a priori? no, you learned of your god from a source, and regardless of that source, it originated from your bible. that is the dominant reality structure that gave you the "evidence" that you used to circle back to believe in that god. unfortunately, our society is suffused with christianity. it is on the radio, television, in conversation, on billboards, in books and magazines and church marquees. and yet, you never experienced any of that, suddenly you just....learned of your god out of the blue. uh huh. but, so anyhow, prove your god. again, you cannot. nice try to dodge the question though.

you accused yourself of those acts. your understanding is lacking. i am disappointed. youi lumped yourself in with the group that i defined, and you walked into the definition. you accused yourself. dont blame me for your actions.

your posts cry out your ego. your unwillingness to own up you your own responsibility for your lies and trying to blame me for them again only shows your ego. like the pharisee praying in public, fisting his chest repeatedly in a show of false piety.

again, your posts drip with argumentative fallacies.

 

[Amanda]

And this is exactly my point. You bear false witness against others, poison the well, and then get upset when people reverse your question onto you.

son-and i say this, despite your verbosity, as i feel when talking to you i am dealing with my three year old-i do not profess to be a christian. you do. regardless of whether i "sin" as per your system, that never will be any justification for you to throw your christ over your shoulder. you have shown me nothing, especially as i am not upset except that you attempted to bear false witness, giving lie to your stated convictions. dont even try to spin the whole episode any other way. you simply tried to deceive, bear false witness, lie...how ever you wish to pose it. and then tried to justify the act. Lol!! and then try and pass yourself off as a christian. BAH!

i am upset that pretend christians like you try to hide your rotting soul behind voluminous posts that aren't enough cologne to masks the stench. you and your ilk shame the many fine christians i know and would die for.

you need to get off the fence. you have no integrity. none.

btw, you claim that you were...what, out strolling one day, and suddenly the concept of god popped into your head almost a priori? no, you learned of your god from a source, and regardless of that source, it originated from your bible. that is the dominant reality structure that gave you the "evidence" that you used to circle back to believe in that god. unfortunately, our society is suffused with christianity. it is on the radio, television, in conversation, on billboards, in books and magazines and church marquees. and yet, you never experienced any of that, suddenly you just....learned of your god out of the blue. uh huh. but, so anyhow, prove your god. again, you cannot. nice try to dodge the question though.

you accused yourself of those acts. your understanding is lacking. i am disappointed. youi lumped yourself in with the group that i defined, and you walked into the definition. you accused yourself. dont blame me for your actions.

your posts cry out your ego. your unwillingness to own up you your own responsibility for your lies and trying to blame me for them again only shows your ego. like the pharisee praying in public, fisting his chest repeatedly in a show of false piety.

again, your posts drip with argumentative fallacies.

We often see in others what we fear most about ourselves.

 

[vincubus]

i suppose i would ask why do "believers" ( the religious) seek to persuade "believers" (read those who believe in themselves) that there IS a god(s) or goddess(es)?

Most don't actually. It would not occur to me to discuss the subject unless invited to do so on an internet thread or other appropriate setting or during those times I am given a wide opening to share my faith with a stranger or someone I don't know well. There are Christians who are convinced that it is their duty to introduce others to Christ and, while there are always exceptions and a few unpleasant types, most do so out of genuine concern for the well being of the other person rather than for any personal benefit.

But the Christian who shares his/her faith almost always is offering a gift to the other person. The nonbeliever who seeks to belittle or demean or disparage the faith of another appears to be intending to destroy or take away that faith. I would like to know where that kind of unkindness comes from.

fanatical? how is putting the second set of believers to death, shunning them, belittling them, physically attacking them, and even burning down their homes NOT fanatical

That kind of behavior, while rare among Christians throughout history, has certainly happened and it certainly was fanatical and is fanatical. There is no justification for it and there is no justification for any of other religions or state mandated Atheism requiring hate, humiliation, cruelty, torture, mutilation, murder, and abolishment of many basic human rights that we take for granted. I for one am very happy that Christianity, except for tiny, rare, separated pockets, has evolved out of that hateful ignorance phase and no longer practices it. It has not practiced it for a very long time now.

But Christianity now often finds itself running thrift shops, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, orphanages for parentless or savaged children, ministering in leper colonies and to AIDS sufferers in the last stages of their diseases. It is generally some of the most fundamenalist, narrow-minded, 'fanatical' types that go into some of the most unpleasant places on Earth to minister and teach and provide hope to some of the world's poorest people. Meanwhile, those terrible Christians of old have settled great cities, and built great universities and founded great hospitals and other monuments for the betterment of humankind.

Perhaps you can point me to groups of non-believers who have accomplished so much.

i had been a born again for 20+ years. i know many fine christians. when i was senior mod in a pagan chat/posting room, there were a few christians who were regulars. i defended them against the rabid attacks because i knew them for what they are/were. decent, committed christians who serve their god with every ounce of their being. they exuded love (love, btw, is the one force that cannot be fought against successfully).

i would agree that most christians aren't pushy. they understand that to get respect you have to give it. pretending to be a friend to gain converts is transparent to all but the extremely dull. sadly, it is the "god squad" that accosted me on my way into town while stationed outside of memphis, the christians who will tell you that the gaping maw of hell awaits and you are a foul sinner, the ones who tell an individual who has made some mistakes in their past that they are bad, who set the tone for many "recovering catholics", escaping christians, and seekers of a better fitting system. i recall a lady friend who was smacked to salvation by her southern baptist mother, and a baptist minister who would't allow his family to have any contact with their lesbian daughter because she was a sinner. i talked with the woman at length. she was bitter, but still loved her father. hers was not a choice, but a determination made at birth. and because of the doctrine that says sin is a choice, she was shunned.

religion-or darn near anything else- in the hands of the ignorant is a dangerous thing. religion however, is something that resonates deeply within most of us, and transcends reason for many who abuse religion out of the best intentions, but abuse it none the less.

the christian religion has evolved. that is apparent to a great many who do not believe, and became apparent to a great many who did at one time believe. to give in to a system that is at times contradictory and has evolved is intellectually dishonest. to then try and even persuade a former christian or informed seeker is almost an insult to their intelligence. lol! i had hung out in an abio-gensis site for a time, and the well meaning christians who came in to do "battle" with the evolutionists seemed so....out gunned intellectually i began to feel sorry for them. i would cringe, hoping they wouldn't make total fools of themselves. it was embarrassing to me...maybe not to them. but they just had no tools to use. they were seen as greatly inferior. how can such a person mount any credible defense? they then shame their god in the eyes of others, and so become the butt of jokes.

 

[Intense]

i suppose i would ask why do "believers" ( the religious) seek to persuade "believers" (read those who believe in themselves) that there IS a god(s) or goddess(es)?

Most don't actually. It would not occur to me to discuss the subject unless invited to do so on an internet thread or other appropriate setting or during those times I am given a wide opening to share my faith with a stranger or someone I don't know well. There are Christians who are convinced that it is their duty to introduce others to Christ and, while there are always exceptions and a few unpleasant types, most do so out of genuine concern for the well being of the other person rather than for any personal benefit.

But the Christian who shares his/her faith almost always is offering a gift to the other person. The nonbeliever who seeks to belittle or demean or disparage the faith of another appears to be intending to destroy or take away that faith. I would like to know where that kind of unkindness comes from.

fanatical? how is putting the second set of believers to death, shunning them, belittling them, physically attacking them, and even burning down their homes NOT fanatical

That kind of behavior, while rare among Christians throughout history, has certainly happened and it certainly was fanatical and is fanatical. There is no justification for it and there is no justification for any of other religions or state mandated Atheism requiring hate, humiliation, cruelty, torture, mutilation, murder, and abolishment of many basic human rights that we take for granted. I for one am very happy that Christianity, except for tiny, rare, separated pockets, has evolved out of that hateful ignorance phase and no longer practices it. It has not practiced it for a very long time now.

But Christianity now often finds itself running thrift shops, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, orphanages for parentless or savaged children, ministering in leper colonies and to AIDS sufferers in the last stages of their diseases. It is generally some of the most fundamenalist, narrow-minded, 'fanatical' types that go into some of the most unpleasant places on Earth to minister and teach and provide hope to some of the world's poorest people. Meanwhile, those terrible Christians of old have settled great cities, and built great universities and founded great hospitals and other monuments for the betterment of humankind.

Perhaps you can point me to groups of non-believers who have accomplished so much.

i had been a born again for 20+ years. i know many fine christians. when i was senior mod in a pagan chat/posting room, there were a few christians who were regulars. i defended them against the rabid attacks because i knew them for what they are/were. decent, committed christians who serve their god with every ounce of their being. they exuded love (love, btw, is the one force that cannot be fought against successfully).

i would agree that most christians aren't pushy. they understand that to get respect you have to give it. pretending to be a friend to gain converts is transparent to all but the extremely dull. sadly, it is the "god squad" that accosted me on my way into town while stationed outside of memphis, the christians who will tell you that the gaping maw of hell awaits and you are a foul sinner, the ones who tell an individual who has made some mistakes in their past that they are bad, who set the tone for many "recovering catholics", escaping christians, and seekers of a better fitting system. i recall a lady friend who was smacked to salvation by her southern baptist mother, and a baptist minister who would't allow his family to have any contact with their lesbian daughter because she was a sinner. i talked with the woman at length. she was bitter, but still loved her father. hers was not a choice, but a determination made at birth. and because of the doctrine that says sin is a choice, she was shunned.

religion-or darn near anything else- in the hands of the ignorant is a dangerous thing. religion however, is something that resonates deeply within most of us, and transcends reason for many who abuse religion out of the best intentions, but abuse it none the less.

the christian religion has evolved. that is apparent to a great many who do not believe, and became apparent to a great many who did at one time believe. to give in to a system that is at times contradictory and has evolved is intellectually dishonest. to then try and even persuade a former christian or informed seeker is almost an insult to their intelligence. lol! i had hung out in an abio-gensis site for a time, and the well meaning christians who came in to do "battle" with the evolutionists seemed so....out gunned intellectually i began to feel sorry for them. i would cringe, hoping they wouldn't make total fools of themselves. it was embarrassing to me...maybe not to them. but they just had no tools to use. they were seen as greatly inferior. how can such a person mount any credible defense? they then shame their god in the eyes of others, and so become the butt of jokes.

Following your posts, it seems that your focus on Christian structure, has diverted you from the purpose of that structure. How do you distinguish between God and the church, or society, or culture, when you refuse to face conscience as an individual? No club, group, or society, is going to get you into heaven, by itself, neither are your perceptions limited to theirs. Your relationship to the Powers that be, is as an individual first, all else is secondary. Everyone is so tempted in selling their brand, that we fail to recognize that all of our perspectives are limited. Through Conscience we communicate with our maker, King Solomon once used the term "Sincerity of Heart". There is no one to lead you by the nose in matters of conscience, but your own being. The names or words you use when you pray, your concern.

How can I prove God exists to someone that doesn't want God to be real? Why wouldn't someone want God to be real? What burden would instill such determination? As an Individual I believe that there is little beyond the grasp of reconciliation. I believe that God's Purpose for creating each on of us trumps all of our screw ups, our reason for being is more important that the tangents we choose. I believe, as an Individual, that the message from birth, is and has always been, (God) seek Me first, in all things, return to me when you find yourself in error, and it will be healed.

How can I prove God exists.... how does one share in God's presence? Should I find myself in a Lightening storm on the beach at Robert Moses State Park, at natures mercy, should I find myself in a life and death situation of any kind, my first response is to pray, and cleanse, while focusing on doing what needs to be done.

I'll tell you that one thing I will never again do in my life is blame God, for what we do to each other, with the free will He gave us.

 

[vincubus]

Most don't actually. It would not occur to me to discuss the subject unless invited to do so on an internet thread or other appropriate setting or during those times I am given a wide opening to share my faith with a stranger or someone I don't know well. There are Christians who are convinced that it is their duty to introduce others to Christ and, while there are always exceptions and a few unpleasant types, most do so out of genuine concern for the well being of the other person rather than for any personal benefit.

But the Christian who shares his/her faith almost always is offering a gift to the other person. The nonbeliever who seeks to belittle or demean or disparage the faith of another appears to be intending to destroy or take away that faith. I would like to know where that kind of unkindness comes from.



That kind of behavior, while rare among Christians throughout history, has certainly happened and it certainly was fanatical and is fanatical. There is no justification for it and there is no justification for any of other religions or state mandated Atheism requiring hate, humiliation, cruelty, torture, mutilation, murder, and abolishment of many basic human rights that we take for granted. I for one am very happy that Christianity, except for tiny, rare, separated pockets, has evolved out of that hateful ignorance phase and no longer practices it. It has not practiced it for a very long time now.

But Christianity now often finds itself running thrift shops, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, orphanages for parentless or savaged children, ministering in leper colonies and to AIDS sufferers in the last stages of their diseases. It is generally some of the most fundamenalist, narrow-minded, 'fanatical' types that go into some of the most unpleasant places on Earth to minister and teach and provide hope to some of the world's poorest people. Meanwhile, those terrible Christians of old have settled great cities, and built great universities and founded great hospitals and other monuments for the betterment of humankind.

Perhaps you can point me to groups of non-believers who have accomplished so much.

i had been a born again for 20+ years. i know many fine christians. when i was senior mod in a pagan chat/posting room, there were a few christians who were regulars. i defended them against the rabid attacks because i knew them for what they are/were. decent, committed christians who serve their god with every ounce of their being. they exuded love (love, btw, is the one force that cannot be fought against successfully).

i would agree that most christians aren't pushy. they understand that to get respect you have to give it. pretending to be a friend to gain converts is transparent to all but the extremely dull. sadly, it is the "god squad" that accosted me on my way into town while stationed outside of memphis, the christians who will tell you that the gaping maw of hell awaits and you are a foul sinner, the ones who tell an individual who has made some mistakes in their past that they are bad, who set the tone for many "recovering catholics", escaping christians, and seekers of a better fitting system. i recall a lady friend who was smacked to salvation by her southern baptist mother, and a baptist minister who would't allow his family to have any contact with their lesbian daughter because she was a sinner. i talked with the woman at length. she was bitter, but still loved her father. hers was not a choice, but a determination made at birth. and because of the doctrine that says sin is a choice, she was shunned.

religion-or darn near anything else- in the hands of the ignorant is a dangerous thing. religion however, is something that resonates deeply within most of us, and transcends reason for many who abuse religion out of the best intentions, but abuse it none the less.

the christian religion has evolved. that is apparent to a great many who do not believe, and became apparent to a great many who did at one time believe. to give in to a system that is at times contradictory and has evolved is intellectually dishonest. to then try and even persuade a former christian or informed seeker is almost an insult to their intelligence. lol! i had hung out in an abio-gensis site for a time, and the well meaning christians who came in to do "battle" with the evolutionists seemed so....out gunned intellectually i began to feel sorry for them. i would cringe, hoping they wouldn't make total fools of themselves. it was embarrassing to me...maybe not to them. but they just had no tools to use. they were seen as greatly inferior. how can such a person mount any credible defense? they then shame their god in the eyes of others, and so become the butt of jokes.

Following your posts, it seems that your focus on Christian structure, has diverted you from the purpose of that structure. How do you distinguish between God and the church, or society, or culture, when you refuse to face conscience as an individual? No club, group, or society, is going to get you into heaven, by itself, neither are your perceptions limited to theirs. Your relationship to the Powers that be, is as an individual first, all else is secondary. Everyone is so tempted in selling their brand, that we fail to recognize that all of our perspectives are limited. Through Conscience we communicate with our maker, King Solomon once used the term "Sincerity of Heart". There is no one to lead you by the nose in matters of conscience, but your own being. The names or words you use when you pray, your concern.

How can I prove God exists to someone that doesn't want God to be real? Why wouldn't someone want God to be real? What burden would instill such determination? As an Individual I believe that there is little beyond the grasp of reconciliation. I believe that God's Purpose for creating each on of us trumps all of our screw ups, our reason for being is more important that the tangents we choose. I believe, as an Individual, that the message from birth, is and has always been, (God) seek Me first, in all things, return to me when you find yourself in error, and it will be healed.

How can I prove God exists.... how does one share in God's presence? Should I find myself in a Lightening storm on the beach at Robert Moses State Park, at natures mercy, should I find myself in a life and death situation of any kind, my first response is to pray, and cleanse, while focusing on doing what needs to be done.

I'll tell you that one thing I will never again do in my life is blame God, for what we do to each other, with the free will He gave us.

no one can prove their god. that is where faith comes in. faith creates existence. that faith is a subjective, individual force, and yet christians especially are prone to tell others that there god IS god, and do so lacking any shred of proof. you have done it also. and when pressed to offer proof that is stand alone and objective, y'all cannot, and backpeddle into the truth, and that is that your god is only subjective. then stop telling others that your god is the god. smile.

not only do y'all tell others that your god is the god, then y'all all but demand (and in some cases that to) that others live by your gods standards. without being able to objectively prove your god. others have their own gods, or dont accept your god. some, like me, had worshiped your god, and now have jettisoned ourselves from that system, and will not return to our vomit. we reject heaven. and....sigh....y'all cannot...cannot seem to grasp that you must talk to others from where they are. the concept of hell in its present form is pagan in origins and evolved over the years. i have been threatened with hell, even though i had emphatically stated i do not believe in hell!! Lol! i am not a christian, and yet you talk to me of your heaven and how i cannot get there but one way. do not y 'all listen? do not y'all have the ability to unthink your doctrine when dealing with others?

i do not not believe in your god, but i believe in my own version. fortunately, my own version doesn't demand i pester others with it, doesn't demand anyone sacrifice, and doesn't tell me i must shun, condemn, hate, or condescend to others.

christianity can be a decent religion. christians, some of them, are another story. i will attack the haters, the frauds, the abusers where they live, and that is in their religion. that is their shell of deceit and yes, i do have the right to judge. i too have read y'alls book.

 

[Intense]

i had been a born again for 20+ years. i know many fine christians. when i was senior mod in a pagan chat/posting room, there were a few christians who were regulars. i defended them against the rabid attacks because i knew them for what they are/were. decent, committed christians who serve their god with every ounce of their being. they exuded love (love, btw, is the one force that cannot be fought against successfully).

i would agree that most christians aren't pushy. they understand that to get respect you have to give it. pretending to be a friend to gain converts is transparent to all but the extremely dull. sadly, it is the "god squad" that accosted me on my way into town while stationed outside of memphis, the christians who will tell you that the gaping maw of hell awaits and you are a foul sinner, the ones who tell an individual who has made some mistakes in their past that they are bad, who set the tone for many "recovering catholics", escaping christians, and seekers of a better fitting system. i recall a lady friend who was smacked to salvation by her southern baptist mother, and a baptist minister who would't allow his family to have any contact with their lesbian daughter because she was a sinner. i talked with the woman at length. she was bitter, but still loved her father. hers was not a choice, but a determination made at birth. and because of the doctrine that says sin is a choice, she was shunned.

religion-or darn near anything else- in the hands of the ignorant is a dangerous thing. religion however, is something that resonates deeply within most of us, and transcends reason for many who abuse religion out of the best intentions, but abuse it none the less.

the christian religion has evolved. that is apparent to a great many who do not believe, and became apparent to a great many who did at one time believe. to give in to a system that is at times contradictory and has evolved is intellectually dishonest. to then try and even persuade a former christian or informed seeker is almost an insult to their intelligence. lol! i had hung out in an abio-gensis site for a time, and the well meaning christians who came in to do "battle" with the evolutionists seemed so....out gunned intellectually i began to feel sorry for them. i would cringe, hoping they wouldn't make total fools of themselves. it was embarrassing to me...maybe not to them. but they just had no tools to use. they were seen as greatly inferior. how can such a person mount any credible defense? they then shame their god in the eyes of others, and so become the butt of jokes.

Following your posts, it seems that your focus on Christian structure, has diverted you from the purpose of that structure. How do you distinguish between God and the church, or society, or culture, when you refuse to face conscience as an individual? No club, group, or society, is going to get you into heaven, by itself, neither are your perceptions limited to theirs. Your relationship to the Powers that be, is as an individual first, all else is secondary. Everyone is so tempted in selling their brand, that we fail to recognize that all of our perspectives are limited. Through Conscience we communicate with our maker, King Solomon once used the term "Sincerity of Heart". There is no one to lead you by the nose in matters of conscience, but your own being. The names or words you use when you pray, your concern.

How can I prove God exists to someone that doesn't want God to be real? Why wouldn't someone want God to be real? What burden would instill such determination? As an Individual I believe that there is little beyond the grasp of reconciliation. I believe that God's Purpose for creating each on of us trumps all of our screw ups, our reason for being is more important that the tangents we choose. I believe, as an Individual, that the message from birth, is and has always been, (God) seek Me first, in all things, return to me when you find yourself in error, and it will be healed.

How can I prove God exists.... how does one share in God's presence? Should I find myself in a Lightening storm on the beach at Robert Moses State Park, at natures mercy, should I find myself in a life and death situation of any kind, my first response is to pray, and cleanse, while focusing on doing what needs to be done.

I'll tell you that one thing I will never again do in my life is blame God, for what we do to each other, with the free will He gave us.

no one can prove their god. that is where faith comes in. faith creates existence. that faith is a subjective, individual force, and yet christians especially are prone to tell others that there god IS god, and do so lacking any shred of proof. you have done it also. and when pressed to offer proof that is stand alone and objective, y'all cannot, and backpeddle into the truth, and that is that your god is only subjective. then stop telling others that your god is the god. smile.

not only do y'all tell others that your god is the god, then y'all all but demand (and in some cases that to) that others live by your gods standards. without being able to objectively prove your god. others have their own gods, or dont accept your god. some, like me, had worshiped your god, and now have jettisoned ourselves from that system, and will not return to our vomit. we reject heaven. and....sigh....y'all cannot...cannot seem to grasp that you must talk to others from where they are. the concept of hell in its present form is pagan in origins and evolved over the years. i have been threatened with hell, even though i had emphatically stated i do not believe in hell!! Lol! i am not a christian, and yet you talk to me of your heaven and how i cannot get there but one way. do not y 'all listen? do not y'all have the ability to unthink your doctrine when dealing with others?

i do not not believe in your god, but i believe in my own version. fortunately, my own version doesn't demand i pester others with it, doesn't demand anyone sacrifice, and doesn't tell me i must shun, condemn, hate, or condescend to others.

christianity can be a decent religion. christians, some of them, are another story. i will attack the haters, the frauds, the abusers where they live, and that is in their religion. that is their shell of deceit and yes, i do have the right to judge. i too have read y'alls book.

A little angry at the world are we? Is this as Caffine or medication issue? I have no issue with the name one calls God by, or the words they use when they pray. I am not concerned with denomination or brand, Christian or non christian. The only place I would direct you is toand through your own conscience. Why the need to throw stones at others? You might also want to work on your reading retention. You have no obligation to me or anyone else, piss your life away screwing with others if you will, you alone are responsible for where, whin, and if you find yourself. Have a nice day. I owe, Iowe, so off to work I go.

 

[Foxfyre]

i had been a born again for 20+ years. i know many fine christians. when i was senior mod in a pagan chat/posting room, there were a few christians who were regulars. i defended them against the rabid attacks because i knew them for what they are/were. decent, committed christians who serve their god with every ounce of their being. they exuded love (love, btw, is the one force that cannot be fought against successfully).

i would agree that most christians aren't pushy. they understand that to get respect you have to give it. pretending to be a friend to gain converts is transparent to all but the extremely dull. sadly, it is the "god squad" that accosted me on my way into town while stationed outside of memphis, the christians who will tell you that the gaping maw of hell awaits and you are a foul sinner, the ones who tell an individual who has made some mistakes in their past that they are bad, who set the tone for many "recovering catholics", escaping christians, and seekers of a better fitting system. i recall a lady friend who was smacked to salvation by her southern baptist mother, and a baptist minister who would't allow his family to have any contact with their lesbian daughter because she was a sinner. i talked with the woman at length. she was bitter, but still loved her father. hers was not a choice, but a determination made at birth. and because of the doctrine that says sin is a choice, she was shunned.

religion-or darn near anything else- in the hands of the ignorant is a dangerous thing. religion however, is something that resonates deeply within most of us, and transcends reason for many who abuse religion out of the best intentions, but abuse it none the less.

the christian religion has evolved. that is apparent to a great many who do not believe, and became apparent to a great many who did at one time believe. to give in to a system that is at times contradictory and has evolved is intellectually dishonest. to then try and even persuade a former christian or informed seeker is almost an insult to their intelligence. lol! i had hung out in an abio-gensis site for a time, and the well meaning christians who came in to do "battle" with the evolutionists seemed so....out gunned intellectually i began to feel sorry for them. i would cringe, hoping they wouldn't make total fools of themselves. it was embarrassing to me...maybe not to them. but they just had no tools to use. they were seen as greatly inferior. how can such a person mount any credible defense? they then shame their god in the eyes of others, and so become the butt of jokes.

For me, Christianity that is understood and practiced only intellectually is no different from any other religion that is understood and practiced only intellectually. For me Christianity is a relationship that is real; an experience that cannot be explained away intellectually, and I do not think many, if any, who have entered into that relationship stop believing.

This of course does not stop Christians, like any other people, from being wrong, from holding onto notions that seem absurd to you and me, or from being damn fools. Neverthless, I long ago concluded that God is far less interested in our theology than he is interested in that relationship. And while I am not fundamentalist and try not to be irrational or too embarrasing, I cannot deny that it is some of the most 'wrong', absurd, narrow minded, dogmatic, judgmental, embarassing, damn fool Chrsitians who are running those soup kitchens and homeless shelters etc. and who are ministering to some of the world's poorest people in some of the world's most miserable places. Many if not most of the world's more enlightened don't seem to be doing that.

And perhaps religion in the hands of the ignorant is inevitably a dangerous thing, but in a dangerous world, in dangerous territory, where would you feel the most secure? Where would you feel that others would most likely care about your well being and safety? Among Christians and/or Jews? Or with other folks? I think there is a reason that neighborhoods and communities with a lot of Christian churches and a majority of church-going people almost always enjoy less crime, more prosperity, more generally satisfying quality of life. All this is to say that despite all its ugliest chapters in history, Christianity overall has generally been a more positive than negative influence everywhere it has been planted.

I can't imagine that many people are led to Christ by being told they are going to hell. And I doubt many are persuaded by anti-evolutionists or those who insist the universe is little more than 6,000 years old. Isn't it a good thing that few Christians push such theories? But you can't dismiss the fact that many of those who do are among those doing some of the best work to make the world a less hostile, more compassionate place.

But then I am one who believes that God uses all sorts of people, believers and non believers alike, for various purposes. I don't think you have to be Christian to be a great person. But I also don't think being Christian ever disqualifies somebody from that either.

 

[Anguille]

Perhaps you can point me to groups of non-believers who have accomplished so much.

Most nonbelievers do not feel the need to huddle around other people who share only their own beliefs in order to do good things in the world. You will find non believers behaving altruistically all over the world, working in non profits and charitable organizations, sometimes even in religious organizations alongside believers. Sometimes just working silently on their own.

Until recently atheists were hated and persecuted by religious groups even more than these groups hated and persecuted people of other religions.

 

[Coyote]

Most nonbelievers do not feel the need to huddle around other people who share only their own beliefs in order to do good things in the world. You will find non believers behaving altruistically all over the world, working in non profits and charitable organizations, sometimes even in religious organizations alongside believers. Sometimes just working silently on their own.

That's not really true...

People belong to all sorts of groups - groups with which they share a set of values, ideals, or beliefs. It is that commonality of shared purpose that encourages working together for a greater good and whether you call that religion, civil rights or charity - it amounts to the same thing: groups with with shared values, ideals, or beliefs.

There are also many religious people - "believers" if you will, who work quietly, and on their own engage in "good works".

Whether they do it in a group or individually depends on the person - for some, the group adds strength of purpose where commitment might falter, for others working solitary gives them a freedom of action they wouldn't otherwise have. I have gotten to know some people who gave me a far less cynical outlook on religion than I used to have. They quietly exemplify their beliefs not through talk, condemnation or extortion - but by the way they live their lives and, most important - treat others around them. It eroded, just a little, the decades of televangelistically induced cynicism.

Until recently atheists were hated and persecuted by religious groups even more than these groups hated and persecuted people of other religions.

True...but often, the loudest voices in that arena, are the minority.

We have yet to elect an open athiest to a major office though...I think.

 

[Anguille]

Most nonbelievers do not feel the need to huddle around other people who share only their own beliefs in order to do good things in the world. You will find non believers behaving altruistically all over the world, working in non profits and charitable organizations, sometimes even in religious organizations alongside believers. Sometimes just working silently on their own.

That's not really true...

People belong to all sorts of groups - groups with which they share a set of values, ideals, or beliefs. It is that commonality of shared purpose that encourages working together for a greater good and whether you call that religion, civil rights or charity - it amounts to the same thing: groups with with shared values, ideals, or beliefs.

There are also many religious people - "believers" if you will, who work quietly, and on their own engage in "good works".

Whether they do it in a group or individually depends on the person - for some, the group adds strength of purpose where commitment might falter, for others working solitary gives them a freedom of action they wouldn't otherwise have. I have gotten to know some people who gave me a far less cynical outlook on religion than I used to have. They quietly exemplify their beliefs not through talk, condemnation or extortion - but by the way they live their lives and, most important - treat others around them. It eroded, just a little, the decades of televangelistically induced cynicism.

Until recently atheists were hated and persecuted by religious groups even more than these groups hated and persecuted people of other religions.

True...but often, the loudest voices in that arena, are the minority.

We have yet to elect an open athiest to a major office though...I think.

My point, which I did not express very clearly, is that there are plenty of non religious organizations doing good in the world. Also that not everyone working with religious organizations are believers.

The poster I was responding to seemed to think that religious people are more altruistic than non believers.

 

[Coyote]

Most nonbelievers do not feel the need to huddle around other people who share only their own beliefs in order to do good things in the world. You will find non believers behaving altruistically all over the world, working in non profits and charitable organizations, sometimes even in religious organizations alongside believers. Sometimes just working silently on their own.

That's not really true...

People belong to all sorts of groups - groups with which they share a set of values, ideals, or beliefs. It is that commonality of shared purpose that encourages working together for a greater good and whether you call that religion, civil rights or charity - it amounts to the same thing: groups with with shared values, ideals, or beliefs.

There are also many religious people - "believers" if you will, who work quietly, and on their own engage in "good works".

Whether they do it in a group or individually depends on the person - for some, the group adds strength of purpose where commitment might falter, for others working solitary gives them a freedom of action they wouldn't otherwise have. I have gotten to know some people who gave me a far less cynical outlook on religion than I used to have. They quietly exemplify their beliefs not through talk, condemnation or extortion - but by the way they live their lives and, most important - treat others around them. It eroded, just a little, the decades of televangelistically induced cynicism.

Until recently atheists were hated and persecuted by religious groups even more than these groups hated and persecuted people of other religions.

True...but often, the loudest voices in that arena, are the minority.

We have yet to elect an open athiest to a major office though...I think.

My point, which I did not express very clearly, is that there are plenty of non religious organizations doing good in the world. Also that not everyone working with religious organizations are believers.

The poster I was responding to seemed to think that religious people are more altruistic than non believers.

Ah, I see. Altruism has nothing to do with religion - religion only formalizes it.

I do get annoyed when people think that only religion can provide morals or values or altruistic behavior...but then, I'm probably an amoral heathan sinner who is completely unrepentant

 

[manifold]

Altruism doesn't exist.

 

[Diuretic]

QUOTE/]Most people on Earth believe in a form of Deity because they have a brain that is sufficiently developed to allow them to do so Fox. There may be some other primates that have rudimentary religious beliefs but as far as I know the evidence on that is yet to be produced. So for now it appears as if humans, we with the big brains, are the only creatures on this Earth that are able to wonder about our existence and to invent mythologies as explanations.

As we have not yet developed a means to communicate on an abstract level with any other creatures, we can't know whether other creatures are aware of supernatural phenomenon though can we? We do know that many, if not most, non-human creatures have sensory and perhaps some cognitive abilities beyond the reach of most or all humans. But it would be highly speculative to assume that most humans invent a deity or deities rather allow for the possibility that there is some unseen force at play in the phenomenon.

But you answered a different question than the one I asked.

The question I asked was:

Most people on Earth believe in some form of Deity. More than a billion profess a relationship with the JudeoChristian God. But despite such a cloud of witnesses, there are some who seem almost desperate to believe that it is not real. . . .why?

To rephrase: why do some seem so desperate to discount or discredit or explain away the faith/belief of believers?

What force seems to drive an almost fanatical compulsion to prove that their nonbelief is justified?

I would think that non-believers have many reasons for their position. I can only speak for myself. I'm not hostile to believers but I do believe religion should be a private matter to be practised by individuals with others as they see fit, but that the practice of religion and its existence should not impinge on me. When I see religion being used in public debates I will involve myself on the side of those who argue it should be removed from the public debate.

As for disproving - I'm agnostic, what do know? I don't feel the need to defend my position by attacking believers, but where believers are involved in certain discussions such as the seemingly eternal creationism/ID/evolution merry-go-round, I'll be quite critical. But then I don't see myself as an evangelist of atheism, I don't want to change anyone's mind about their religious beliefs, I just want them to fight fair.

As an agnostic I've been attacked elsewhere for not being firm about my non-beliefs. In my defence, as I indicated, what do I know? I don't believe there is a god, I'm not confdent of stating there is no god, not because of a fear of what might happen if there is an afterlife and I backed the wrong side, but because I can't possibly know, I can only believe, so admitting to not knowing is fine with me.