What is Obama's end game in Libya?

[dilloduck]

Again---was there any danger of a decreased oil supply from PRIOR to the rebellion ? If not and the UN is purely intersted in protecting civilians, why did they wait so long ?

Are you serious?
You are asking why the U.N. took a long time to actually do something?

Good point--- I still don't see why they took any action at all. The oil was still flowing.

 

[Two Thumbs]

There is no 'war'.

Our military has been sent.
The weapons of war have been used.
We have destroyed places.
We have killed people.

Please excuse me if I fail to see any difference, beyond the fact that Congress has not declared war.

Who is "we"? What weapons did "we" send? We can't afford to throw away perfectly good weapons on someone else's civil war?

Weather you like it or not. We, you, me, and everyother American is involved now.

Beyond that, I agree with you.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Oh it's a war. And one that probably should have happened after Lockerbie.

I hope this gives the rebels enough cover the off Qaddafi. He's been deserving a dirt nap for decades.

Now THAT is a reason to kill a mutherfucker!

but he is hands off. Obama or our leadership says they won't try to kill him.

Riiiight.

And there will be a trial for Osama bin Laden if he's still alive and gets caught.

Osama is wanted dead or alive. If he is caught, there will be a trial, eventually.

Gaddafi is not on our to do list. Apparently the UK has him on thiers though. So here's hoping

 

[Two Thumbs]

there should be an end game plan......there should always be consideration of the consequences of your actions

We are helping people that call us The Great Satan, and danced in the street on 9/12.

If they win thier freedom and form a democracy, they will all have the right to call us The Great Satan.

Nothing will improve. The only change is that we will have a reason to spend on defense.

 

[High_Gravity]

there should be an end game plan......there should always be consideration of the consequences of your actions

We are helping people that call us The Great Satan, and danced in the street on 9/12.

If they win thier freedom and form a democracy, they will all have the right to call us The Great Satan.

Nothing will improve. The only change is that we will have a reason to spend on defense.

They actually danced in the street on 9/11 and handed out sweets.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Obama's doing what he is being told to do by the UN.

Yep, this is where we are folks. Ah........ the "Follower in Chief"

 

[Two Thumbs]

Again---was there any danger of a decreased oil supply from PRIOR to the rebellion ? If not and the UN is purely intersted in protecting civilians, why did they wait so long ?

The UN was waiting for us to take the lead and spend the most money. When obama made it clear he wasn't going to make the 1st move, the UN finally decided to act.

Why?

B/c Lybia does not have a strong military, so there will be few, if any deaths on our side.

Otherwise we would be in NK right now.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Ok class, raise your hands if you think this was a humanitarian action.

 

[boedicca]

Obama's end game is to Have His Cake And Eat It Too. No matter how things turn out, he will spin the result as being something good for which he will take credit.

Barcepundit (English edition)

 

[Two Thumbs]

Ok class, raise your hands if you think this was a humanitarian action.

It "was" initially.

We put people into harms way to pass out food and other supplies.

The synic in me says we put them there hoping Gaddafis people would kill some, giving us the green light for total war.

the lesser synical side in me says we were actually hoping this would resolve itself.

 

[High_Gravity]

Ok class, raise your hands if you think this was a humanitarian action.

It "was" initially.

We put people into harms way to pass out food and other supplies.

The synic in me says we put them there hoping Gaddafis people would kill some, giving us the green light for total war.

the lesser synical side in me says we were actually hoping this would resolve itself.

When this first started the rebels were taking cities, Libyan pilots were defecting and Libyan Ambassadors re-signing in droves, I totally thought the Libyan people would take care of this by themselves.

 

[signelect]

I am still dumbfounded that we can all look at the same event and see entirely two different things. When you drop bombs on any body it is war, when yo do it to another country it is definitely way, don't believe that only combatants are being killed. Bombs do not discriminate.

We have know this lunatic was a problem since we screwed up in 86 and didn't kill him. Why now is it a big deal. OIL might be an issue. Everything I read says that the US has enough oil reserves to meet our needs for long time if you just will drill for it. Come home, protect our borders and use our own oil and the ME become irrelevant.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Ok class, raise your hands if you think this was a humanitarian action.

It "was" initially.

We put people into harms way to pass out food and other supplies.

The synic in me says we put them there hoping Gaddafis people would kill some, giving us the green light for total war.

the lesser synical side in me says we were actually hoping this would resolve itself.

I guess that I'm just not seeing the whole picture or something. We launch an attack on ghadafi, do nothing while nutjob in Iran has protesters killed, get a resolution passed in record amount of time....and on and on.

Color me thoroughly confused, TT.

 

[dilloduck]

Ok class, raise your hands if you think this was a humanitarian action.

Not a humanitarian action nor an action to protect the worlds oil supply. The oil was still flowing before the rebels attacked and would have been after.

All I can see if someone wanted to appear to be a humanitarian.

 

[signelect]

When you elect a man who has never be held accountable for anything in his life this is what you get. I am not confused I am terrified, BHO is a nut case. Get us involved in a war we don't need, can't afford and will not have a positive result and then leave on Vacation.

Way to go Barak, nothings changed.

 

[The Gadfly]

The only reason anyone cares about what goes on in Libya is because all these countries the US, Britain, France etc all had oil contracts in Libya, now that they openly called on Ghaddafi to step down from power they will lose those contracts if Ghaddafi regains control of his country, he openly said the only group allowed back in for the contracts would be Germany since they opposed the no fly zone. Believe me Ghaddafi is taking names, he is not stupid and if he regains control,he will tell the US to go fuck themselves and the oil contracts will go to Russia, China and the Germans.

I'm sure that the Brit's are not unhappy at the prospect of bombing the shit out of Gaddafi... over the Lockerbie bomber fiasco... a little bit of pay back for the Brits. But... generally... it's not about oil... it's about giving the rebels a level playing field on which to fight for democracy.

CG do you honestly think if these rebels were in the Congo or Zimbabwe instead of Libya, that we would be using our Military to help them?

HG, The answer to that is obviously "no". Actions like this are always taken out of perceived national self-interest. The "humanitarian" objectives are at best a secondary consideration, and at worst, the hypocritical homage vice pays to virtue.Is that morally right? Of course not; but international politics is a power game that is essentially amoral.

There is a larger picture to consider here; right now, there is a wave of attempted democratization sweeping through a large part of the Arab world. This action is going to further encourage those movements, and that has to be a part of the end objective for us, and our allies. It's not without risk; there's no way to guarantee that any new regimes that emerge would be more friendly to western interests than those currently in place, and they could possibly be worse (see Iran, 1979). However, not giving them at least some minimal help and encouragement practically guarantees their hostility.

Here again, I'm going to presume the president has more and better intelligence information than we do, and is thus in a better position to make what is admittedly a rather dicey call than we are. That is why we have a Commander-in-Chief in the first place, and I don't want to unnecessarily constrain or impede that authority and flexibility, no matter how I feel about the current occupant of the office. So, I'm going to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, and give whatever plan is in place a chance to succeed or fail on its own merits, before I get too critical. I do not want to see a failure of American policy, simply for the sake of domestic political gain. I want Obama defeated in 2012 as badly as anyone, but I am not prepared to undermine our nation's foreign policy to achieve that end.

 

[del]

There is no 'war'.

Our military has been sent.
The weapons of war have been used.
We have destroyed places.
We have killed people.

Please excuse me if I fail to see any difference, beyond the fact that Congress has not declared war.

It's not a 'war', it's a military action. We have only killed military personnel. We have only destroyed military targets.

It's a fine line, but a line nontheless, it's not a 'war'.

please

 

[Two Thumbs]

Ok class, raise your hands if you think this was a humanitarian action.

It "was" initially.

We put people into harms way to pass out food and other supplies.

The synic in me says we put them there hoping Gaddafis people would kill some, giving us the green light for total war.

the lesser synical side in me says we were actually hoping this would resolve itself.

I guess that I'm just not seeing the whole picture or something. We launch an attack on ghadafi, do nothing while nutjob in Iran has protesters killed, get a resolution passed in record amount of time....and on and on.

Color me thoroughly confused, TT.

Here's the main differences;

Iran can and will fight back and kill people
Lybia can't.

If there was some other reason, like oil, we would have crushed Iran, NK, Yemen, Samalia, etc, etc, a while ago.

Everyone wants world peace, only some of us know that it will take war, all out world war to do so. Once most of the killing is done, then we, America, will have to stay and rebuild the country cuz no one else will. Unless we are ok with doing it again every 20-30 years.

 

[dilloduck]

I'm sure that the Brit's are not unhappy at the prospect of bombing the shit out of Gaddafi... over the Lockerbie bomber fiasco... a little bit of pay back for the Brits. But... generally... it's not about oil... it's about giving the rebels a level playing field on which to fight for democracy.

CG do you honestly think if these rebels were in the Congo or Zimbabwe instead of Libya, that we would be using our Military to help them?

HG, The answer to that is obviously "no". Actions like this are always taken out of perceived national self-interest. The "humanitarian" objectives are at best a secondary consideration, and at worst, the hypocritical homage vice pays to virtue.Is that morally right? Of course not; but international politics is a power game that is essentially amoral.

There is a larger picture to consider here; right now, there is a wave of attempted democratization sweeping through a large part of the Arab world. This action is going to further encourage those movements, and that has to be a part of the end objective for us, and our allies. It's not without risk; there's no way to guarantee that any new regimes that emerge would be more friendly to western interests than those currently in place, and they could possibly be worse (see Iran, 1979). However, not giving them at least some minimal help and encouragement practically guarantees their hostility.

Here again, I'm going to presume the president has more and better intelligence information than we do, and is thus in a better position to make what is admittedly a rather dicey call than we are. That is why we have a Commander-in-Chief in the first place, and I don't want to unnecessarily constrain or impede that authority and flexibility, no matter how I feel about the current occupant of the office. So, I'm going to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, and give whatever plan is in place a chance to succeed or fail on its own merits, before I get too critical. I do not want to see a failure of American policy, simply for the sake of domestic political gain. I want Obama defeated in 2012 as badly as anyone, but I am not prepared to undermine our nation's foreign policy to achieve that end.

Yet the UN is only encouraging the democritization in select countries.

 

[The Gadfly]

It "was" initially.

We put people into harms way to pass out food and other supplies.

The synic in me says we put them there hoping Gaddafis people would kill some, giving us the green light for total war.

the lesser synical side in me says we were actually hoping this would resolve itself.

I guess that I'm just not seeing the whole picture or something. We launch an attack on ghadafi, do nothing while nutjob in Iran has protesters killed, get a resolution passed in record amount of time....and on and on.

Color me thoroughly confused, TT.

Here's the main differences;

Iran can and will fight back and kill people
Lybia can't.

If there was some other reason, like oil, we would have crushed Iran, NK, Yemen, Samalia, etc, etc, a while ago.

Everyone wants world peace, only some of us know that it will take war, all out world war to do so. Once most of the killing is done, then we, America, will have to stay and rebuild the country cuz no one else will. Unless we are ok with doing it again every 20-30 years.

Unfortunately, that last part is quite correct. I see no will among the American people to do that. What this means, is that our remaining option is to influence change when and where we can. The Arab world right now is composed of mostly despotic states where a number of nascent rebellions in the name of democracy have resulted from events in Egypt and Tunisia. We just may have an opportunity to encourage these changes, IF we get this right. That's probably at least worth trying, though as I said earlier, it's not without risk.