What If You Atheists Are Wrong? Hmmmm...

[JBeukema]

You're the one who said it.

I thought cats were supposed to be smart?

 

[Anguille]

See what most people, non-believers, especially the rabid strain, don't understand is that if genuine Christianity is totally bogus, once we die, we literally have had nothing to lose and, in any case, have lived a beautiful life.

If Christianity did not exist, civilization at this point would probably have died out. Seriously!

Anne Marie

So many religions to chose from!!! Which one will win us a spot in heaven?
Decisions, decisions ....

 

[mattskramer]

See what most people, non-believers, especially the rabid strain, don't understand is that if genuine Christianity is totally bogus, once we die, we literally have had nothing to lose and, in any case, have lived a beautiful life.

If Christianity did not exist, civilization at this point would probably have died out. Seriously!

Anne Marie

You are touching on Pascal’s Wager. There are many criticisms to it. There is the possibility of arguing from inconsistent revelations – otherwise defined as believing in the wrong god. As a tangent to that, God could either be evil or not reward belief.

See Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for more information.

By the way, atheists are good people too. People might be good to each other for various reasons – one reason is so that they will be remembered. It would be pretty sad to think that you life did not mean anything to anyone – and worse to think that you were such a selfish person that the world would have been better of had you not ever existed.

Finally, consider the evils that Christians (albeit misguided) have done thinking that this is what God would want them to do. In following Pascal's Wager in an attempt to get the heaven, many probably thought that they had better do these things. Christian terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Anguille]

What If You Atheists Are Wrong? Hmmmm...

I would not wish to be a member of any club that would have the likes of me join up.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Now you're just playing semantics.

Not really.

You went on a dissemblance of all the intellectual ammunition you used to conclude that you don't believe, but somehow that wasn't a choice?

Did the information just walk up and stuff itself in your head, without your volition?

Well, in a way it did. I didn't search out ways to covince myself to not believe, though I never believed and have studied atheism to educate myself better about my own beliefs (or lack thereof) - just like someone who believes in God studies the Bible to learn more about their beliefs. I went to school and studied sciences, and learned the scientific method, and I never experienced anything that would convince me that there is a supreme being. At school I wasn't taught not to believe and I never took a course about atheism, but what I learned was that there isn't any evidence that conclusively proves God's existence and that only reinforced my disbelief in a higher power.

But, if you want to believe that I chose to be an atheist, then there is little I can do to dissuade you of that. Did you choose to have faith in God? Was it a choice or do you believe because you can't choose not to?

 

[Anguille]

I am not an atheist but I believe the world needs organized religion about as much as I need a case of the crabs. The only problem is that crabs are much easier to get rid of than religious zealots. I am not going to live my life according to dogma and some little book of fairytales. I live life in a moral and just way as I see fit not as taught by some book and an organization that has throughout history proven itself to be immoral, unjust, and corrupt. Even if somehow Christians are right, would not your loving god, if it truly is a loving god, still forgive my errant ways and admit me in whatever his afterlife is like anyway?

And as humans I dont think we could ever begin to understand an entity as complex as god (I look at it as an ant trying to explain a human) would have to be and to pretend we can understand his "word" in what mucst be all of its complexity through a little book written by men who are inherently flawed is irrational.

As an atheist I find I the idea that god exists more plausible than the idea that in order to believe in God you have to belong to some proselytizing clique.

 

[Oddball]

You went on a dissemblance of all the intellectual ammunition you used to conclude that you don't believe, but somehow that wasn't a choice?

Did the information just walk up and stuff itself in your head, without your volition?

Well, in a way it did. I didn't search out ways to covince myself to not believe, though I never believed and have studied atheism to educate myself better about my own beliefs (or lack thereof) - just like someone who believes in God studies the Bible to learn more about their beliefs. I went to school and studied sciences, and learned the scientific method, and I never experienced anything that would convince me that there is a supreme being. At school I wasn't taught not to believe and I never took a course about atheism, but what I learned was that there isn't any evidence that conclusively proves God's existence and that only reinforced my disbelief in a higher power.

But, if you want to believe that I chose to be an atheist, then there is little I can do to dissuade you of that. Did you choose to have faith in God? Was it a choice or do you believe because you can't choose not to?

That you didn't actively seek the information is irrelevant to the fact that you absorbed it and it had the ring of truth to you....If it didn't you probably would've rejected it. If that's not choice, nothing is.

And who says I have faith in the Judeo-Christian God??

 

[Anguille]

I think you have it bassackwards syd. What you really ought to be concerned about is what if atheists are right? hmmmmmmmmm.

"if" ?

 

[Anguille]

How is that scary? To cease to exist? You wouldn't care because you'd have no conscious knowledge of it. I fail to see how that's bad.

Depends ... but the possibility of atheists being right is the only reason I still live.

So, you'll kill yourself if we convince you there's a god?

Advocating the deaths of posters again?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

For me that was the biggest emotional issue I had with being unable to believe. I came to learn that one must MAKE meaning of their lives and to give themselves a reason to exist and a purpose for their existence. But it isn't the same as having a creator who I believe has already given life meaning and purpose and that my creator had a reason for creating me and its just up to me to live up to that.

What if that's the reason you're here??....What if you chose that??

Sorry, Dude, but I'm not getting your question. What if the reason I'm here is to make meaning of life, to give myself a purpose, and to have a reason to exist? Do I understand you correctly? What if chose for that to be the reason I'm here? I do, because otherwise my life IS meaningless and that, to me, is worse than oblivion.

Who says the existence of a creator (let's leave the Judeo-Christian God out of this for now) is mutually exclusive to the conclusions you've drawn?

I'm not saying that it is mutually exclusive. Years from now, or months, or weeks, or days, or later on today I could experience or learn something that convinces me that "God" exists. My belief system would be revised. That's the beauty of agnosticism, and empiricism. And since my belief system would've changed, I would have to figure out a new purpose, reason and meaning for life that would align well with my new found spirituality.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

welcome to existentialism, CMM; good to see you got past that nihilistic depression you were in a few months back

Well, thanks, JB, but existentialism is something I've known about for quite some time. My nihilistic depression was a result of it.

 

[GHook93]

See what most people, non-believers, especially the rabid strain, don't understand is that if genuine Christianity is totally bogus, once we die, we literally have had nothing to lose and, in any case, have lived a beautiful life.

If Christianity did not exist, civilization at this point would probably have died out. Seriously!

Anne Marie

If us atheists are wrong, then as long as we live a moral life we will go to heaven correct? Why would being a believer be a qualifier? I have met god-fearing people of many religions from Judaism, Catholicism, Christian, Hinduism and Islam would are not what you call moral people! Why would they make it to heaven over a moral atheist?

Oh wait most believe god will only let you in if your the right sec of a specific religion. So even if your a believer, but subsribe to the wrong sec you still go to hell. There are so many religions its pretty tough to pick the right no!

Here should be your god! Be moral because other people judge your actions!

 

[Oddball]

Who says the existence of a creator (let's leave the Judeo-Christian God out of this for now) is mutually exclusive to the conclusions you've drawn?

I'm not saying that it is mutually exclusive. Years from now, or months, or weeks, or days, or later on today I could experience or learn something that convinces me that "God" exists. My belief system would be revised. That's the beauty of agnosticism, and empiricism. And since my belief system would've changed, I would have to figure out a new purpose, reason and meaning for life that would align well with my new found spirituality.

Fair enough...This still doesn't refute the fact that you've had a choice in the matter....The choice to live better by way of believing differently.....Happens all the time in every context.

The real fun in agnosticism is when you drop the empiricist shit and get Socratic.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

That you didn't actively seek the information is irrelevant to the fact that you absorbed it and it had the ring of truth to you....If it didn't you probably would've rejected it. If that's not choice, nothing is.

I don't know if I'd call it a choice. At least not a "conscious" choice. If something has the ring of truth to it, for me to deny it would be an act against my own convictions. It would be a willful suspension of belief, and that is a choice. I don't know if its a choice the other way around.

And who says I have faith in the Judeo-Christian God??

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you did. I should've used "higher power" instead of "God".

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Fair enough...This still doesn't refute the fact that you've had a choice in the matter....

I guess our definitions of choice are not the same and in order to avoid an argument in semantics I will leave it at that.

The choice to live better by way of believing differently.....Happens all the time in every context.

I guess that seems vague to me. What do you mean?

The real fun in agnosticism is when you drop the empiricist shit and get Socratic.

What do you mean? I thought that the "Socratic" method meant to ask questions instead of giving answers.

 

[Oddball]

That you didn't actively seek the information is irrelevant to the fact that you absorbed it and it had the ring of truth to you....If it didn't you probably would've rejected it. If that's not choice, nothing is.

I don't know if I'd call it a choice. At least not a "conscious" choice. If something has the ring of truth to it, for me to deny it would be an act against my own convictions. It would be a willful suspension of belief, and that is a choice. I don't know if its a choice the other way around.

Willful suspension of disbelief is an important step in building belief....A paradox.

It gets you to ask questions like; "what would have to happen for X to be true".

And who says I have faith in the Judeo-Christian God??

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you did. I should've used "higher power" instead of "God".

Maybe that power is higher, maybe it isn't.....I really don't know.

That said, I find the notion that the effect of a volitional consciousness evolving out of nothingness -without a cause- to be of highly dubious merit.....Either scientific OR spiritual.

 

[Oddball]

The choice to live better by way of believing differently.....Happens all the time in every context.

I guess that seems vague to me. What do you mean?

I've done some work in the areas of personal improvement (i.e. sports, business) and in virtually every instance, all that was keeping otherwise very talented people from getting what they wanted were beliefs that kept them down.

Break the phobia, fear, neurosis, or other internal limiting belief and the improvements come as a matter of course.

The real fun in agnosticism is when you drop the empiricist shit and get Socratic.

What do you mean? I thought that the "Socratic" method meant to ask questions instead of giving answers.

Yup....And most of our back-n-forth here has involved you making -albeit somewhat hedged- statements of belief, rather than using the same suspensions of the belief you used to have, to come to the belief you currently believe. Virtually no questions.

There's what yo know you know, and what you didn't know you know, until you suddenly realize that you know you know it. And at the point where what you didn't know you know becomes what you know you know, you understand things differently....You know??

 

[Diuretic]

I love how religious people can seperate church and state when it comes to murdering for $/oil.


That's a freaky kinda love.

I am thinking you need the same advice Elvis gave to BooHoo.

I don't come down to your job and tell you how to give blowjobs, do I? Don't tell me how to do my job then.

I'm a fucking air traffic controller. I get several breaks because of the stress. They don't care as long as no planes crash.

If I'm ever in your airspace bobo, you take as many breaks as you need to keep alert - okay?

 

[Diuretic]

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[JBeukema]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Diuretic again.

Bummer, dude