What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote

[Olde Europe]

Why not?

A two state solution, as originally envisioned, is in a zombie state of perpetual propping up by diplomats. It's support has drastically waned among both Palestinians and Israelis.

With a one state solution (Israel + West Bank) - assuming a scenario where ALL residents are offered the opportunity of citizenship up front, the plus side for Palestinians would be the potential of better representation, political stability, assumption of rights guaranteed by citizenship and funding for infrastructure, education, etc. that is in perpetual shortage with their Palestinian leadership.


Here's what happens if Israel annexes the West Bank and lets Palestinians vote

It's a great idea - particularly in conjunction with the two-track citizenship/nationality law, resulting in a permanent, and permanently frightened, apartheid state, and the requirement either to accept second-class citizenship or to leave. Of course, the long-standing tradition of unequal resource allocation is set to continue, the international community will issue some feeble condemnations, and some on the Palestinian side will mumble about Nakba, v. 2. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Why not?

A two state solution, as originally envisioned, is in a zombie state of perpetual propping up by diplomats. It's support has drastically waned among both Palestinians and Israelis.

With a one state solution (Israel + West Bank) - assuming a scenario where ALL residents are offered the opportunity of citizenship up front, the plus side for Palestinians would be the potential of better representation, political stability, assumption of rights guaranteed by citizenship and funding for infrastructure, education, etc. that is in perpetual shortage with their Palestinian leadership.


Here's what happens if Israel annexes the West Bank and lets Palestinians vote

It would be like letting Illegals vote in CA and NY

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Why not?

A two state solution, as originally envisioned, is in a zombie state of perpetual propping up by diplomats. It's support has drastically waned among both Palestinians and Israelis.

With a one state solution (Israel + West Bank) - assuming a scenario where ALL residents are offered the opportunity of citizenship up front, the plus side for Palestinians would be the potential of better representation, political stability, assumption of rights guaranteed by citizenship and funding for infrastructure, education, etc. that is in perpetual shortage with their Palestinian leadership.


Here's what happens if Israel annexes the West Bank and lets Palestinians vote

Would the Arabs on the West Bank like singing Hatikvah (the most beautiful national anthem in the world, both in terms of lyrics and melody)? Would they salute the Israeli flag, with its Star of David? Would they take pride in seeing a Menorah in front of the Knesset, Israel's Parliament? Would they accept the fact that only Hebrew is their national language, now that Arabic has been demoted from that position? Even Mohammed Zoabi, an Arab Israeli Zionist, opposed the Nation-State Law. The answer to all these questions is No. Therefore, even though it's tough for Jews to to give up Judea (their ancestral, historical and Biblical heartland) to those savage Arabs, I see no other way than 2 states.

 

[MJB12741]

Jews and Arabs will be fighting until the end of time. There can be no compromise. One will have to take over the other.

They didn't fight that much prior to Israel being created - why wouldn't they stop again?

I would be ok with a lasting peace. I just don't see it.

Maybe not lasting peace but maybe the goal could be better peace then we currently have.

Apparently most Arab Israelis PREFER being Israeli citizens, even though they feel they are discriminated against. They would rather be Israeli than under the Palestinian government.

Apparently most Arab Israelis PREFER being Israeli citizens,

I have seen these polls before. "Palestinians would rather live in Israel than in Palestine." It sounds like they like Israel.

The question is that would you rather live in a prosperous country where you can at least get a small piece of the pie, or a country that has been trampled to dust with all of its resources stolen and no chance for peace?

As for the Palestinians living in Israel they do not want to move. They are living in their homeland even if it is occupied by Israel.

Yes they are living in their STOLEN homeland & would rather remain living in Israel as citizens than return to their native Arab country homelands.

 

[Coyote]

Wait. Why?

How would Israel benefit from this?

Legitimacy, ability to better govern the region and all it's people under one legal system.

It hit me when I looked at what flac called the measles map. It isn't just Palestinian violence that caused the erosion of a 2 state solution. I don't think Israel ever seriously intended for it to happen. The map starkly refutes it. Given that neither side, imo, is capable of honoring it.. what is left? The status quo?

Gaza can be a state eventually. But maybe WB should just be annexed.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

IMO, Is solution lies in negotiating with Jordan to define new borders where Jordan administers to these former Jordanians. it would involve a land swap of some sort, but I think it would be better for all in the long run.

 

[Coyote]

Why not?

A two state solution, as originally envisioned, is in a zombie state of perpetual propping up by diplomats. It's support has drastically waned among both Palestinians and Israelis.

With a one state solution (Israel + West Bank) - assuming a scenario where ALL residents are offered the opportunity of citizenship up front, the plus side for Palestinians would be the potential of better representation, political stability, assumption of rights guaranteed by citizenship and funding for infrastructure, education, etc. that is in perpetual shortage with their Palestinian leadership.


Here's what happens if Israel annexes the West Bank and lets Palestinians vote

It's a great idea - particularly in conjunction with the two-track citizenship/nationality law, resulting in a permanent, and permanently frightened, apartheid state, and the requirement either to accept second-class citizenship or to leave. Of course, the long-standing tradition of unequal resource allocation is set to continue, the international community will issue some feeble condemnations, and some on the Palestinian side will mumble about Nakba, v. 2. What could possibly go wrong?

Why would it be a 2 track system? Citizenship would be citizenship. At least that way they can vote for their leadership, exist under the same legal protections, and get much needed development funding. And if it is unequal, theycanbetterchallenge it.

 

[Coyote]

They didn't fight that much prior to Israel being created

A lot of people claim this. So much so, its just accepted as one of those "everybody knows" things. I think we should question it. In particular, I think we should consider how an oppressed minority experiencing repeated pogroms every few years or few decades can be considered to be living in peaceful circumstances.

I think if you are going to challenge it you can not take it out of its historical context and judge it by today's standards of human rights.

 

[Augustine_]

Why not?

A two state solution, as originally envisioned, is in a zombie state of perpetual propping up by diplomats. It's support has drastically waned among both Palestinians and Israelis.

With a one state solution (Israel + West Bank) - assuming a scenario where ALL residents are offered the opportunity of citizenship up front, the plus side for Palestinians would be the potential of better representation, political stability, assumption of rights guaranteed by citizenship and funding for infrastructure, education, etc. that is in perpetual shortage with their Palestinian leadership.


Here's what happens if Israel annexes the West Bank and lets Palestinians vote

Israeli Jews (and American evangelicals) feel about Palestinians the same way that Nazi's felt about Jews and Gypsies. Part of Netanyahu's election strategy is to warn his people that they need to negate the vote of the Arab undesirables. The Palestinians will never have a vote. Of course, that's exacerbated by the Palestinians not wanting peace either.

 

[Coyote]

Why not?

A two state solution, as originally envisioned, is in a zombie state of perpetual propping up by diplomats. It's support has drastically waned among both Palestinians and Israelis.

With a one state solution (Israel + West Bank) - assuming a scenario where ALL residents are offered the opportunity of citizenship up front, the plus side for Palestinians would be the potential of better representation, political stability, assumption of rights guaranteed by citizenship and funding for infrastructure, education, etc. that is in perpetual shortage with their Palestinian leadership.


Here's what happens if Israel annexes the West Bank and lets Palestinians vote

Would the Arabs on the West Bank like singing Hatikvah (the most beautiful national anthem in the world, both in terms of lyrics and melody)? Would they salute the Israeli flag, with its Star of David? Would they take pride in seeing a Menorah in front of the Knesset, Israel's Parliament? Would they accept the fact that only Hebrew is their national language, now that Arabic has been demoted from that position? Even Mohammed Zoabi, an Arab Israeli Zionist, opposed the Nation-State Law. The answer to all these questions is No. Therefore, even though it's tough for Jews to to give up Judea (their ancestral, historical and Biblical heartland) to those savage Arabs, I see no other way than 2 states.

Given the map and lack of political will how possible is it any more?

 

[Olde Europe]

Why would it be a 2 track system? Citizenship would be citizenship. At least that way they can vote for their leadership, exist under the same legal protections, and get much needed development funding. And if it is unequal, theycanbetterchallenge it.

Remember?

Interesting and disturbing. I guess this doesn’t bode well for the Arab Israeli citizens down the road. I wonder if they will allowed into the Jewish settlements being promoted?

According to the Haaretz, "The [nation-state] law also includes clauses stating that a 'united Jerusalem' is the capital of Israel and that Hebrew is the country's official language. Another says that 'the state sees the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation.'"

The law further rescinds Arabic as an official language, downgrading it to a "special status."

Reuters notes, "Early drafts of the legislation went further in what critics at home and abroad saw as discrimination toward Israel's Arabs, who have long said they are treated as second-class citizens."

The news agency says, "Clauses that were dropped in last-minute political wrangling - and after objections by Israel's president and attorney-general - would have enshrined in law the establishment of Jewish-only communities, and instructed courts to rule according to Jewish ritual law when there were no relevant legal precedents."​

 

[P F Tinmore]

This is something similar.

Caroline Glick & Mark Levin: The Israeli Solution -- A One-State Plan for Peace in the Middle East

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Why not?

A two state solution, as originally envisioned, is in a zombie state of perpetual propping up by diplomats. It's support has drastically waned among both Palestinians and Israelis.

With a one state solution (Israel + West Bank) - assuming a scenario where ALL residents are offered the opportunity of citizenship up front, the plus side for Palestinians would be the potential of better representation, political stability, assumption of rights guaranteed by citizenship and funding for infrastructure, education, etc. that is in perpetual shortage with their Palestinian leadership.


Here's what happens if Israel annexes the West Bank and lets Palestinians vote

Israeli Jews (and American evangelicals) feel about Palestinians the same way that Nazi's felt about Jews and Gypsies. Part of Netanyahu's election strategy is to warn his people that they need to negate the vote of the Arab undesirables. The Palestinians will never have a vote. Of course, that's exacerbated by the Palestinians not wanting peace either.

How dare you compare Israelis to the Nazis? If anyone can be compared to the Nazis, it is the Arabs, who are trying to wipe out Israel.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Why not?

A two state solution, as originally envisioned, is in a zombie state of perpetual propping up by diplomats. It's support has drastically waned among both Palestinians and Israelis.

With a one state solution (Israel + West Bank) - assuming a scenario where ALL residents are offered the opportunity of citizenship up front, the plus side for Palestinians would be the potential of better representation, political stability, assumption of rights guaranteed by citizenship and funding for infrastructure, education, etc. that is in perpetual shortage with their Palestinian leadership.


Here's what happens if Israel annexes the West Bank and lets Palestinians vote

Israeli Jews (and American evangelicals) feel about Palestinians the same way that Nazi's felt about Jews and Gypsies. Part of Netanyahu's election strategy is to warn his people that they need to negate the vote of the Arab undesirables. The Palestinians will never have a vote. Of course, that's exacerbated by the Palestinians not wanting peace either.

Boy, do you ever have it backwards.

The Mufti of Jerusalem was an actual Nazi and ran extermination crews in the Balkans. Much of the Arab attitude towards Jews is a result of their collaboration with the Nazis before and during WW2

You are woefully in need of a history lesson.

 

[Shusha]

Wait. Why?

How would Israel benefit from this?

Legitimacy,

Legitimacy? Are you suggesting that Israel is NOT legitimate?!

ability to better govern the region and all it's people under one legal system.

This sounds like an awful big and risky ask of Israel for some vague, undefined notion of "better govern".

It isn't just Palestinian violence that caused the erosion of a 2 state solution. I don't think Israel ever seriously intended for it to happen. The map starkly refutes it. Given that neither side, imo, is capable of honoring it.. what is left? The status quo?

Hard disagree. First, keep in mind that for many Israelis the 2 state solution already happened. Way back in 1921 when Palestine was carved into an Arab state and a Jewish state: Israel and Jordan. I realize you may not agree with this concept, but recognize that it is the context for many Israelis and Israel-supporters (including some on this board, and often including me). What is really being asked is for a four state solution (Jordan, Gaza and Palestine for the Arabs and Israel "proper" for the Jewish people. And who knows, maybe a fifth or sixth state for the Arabs in the future. Nablus? Bethlehem?).

It is readily apparent that Israel absolutely has been willing to give up territory for (more) Arab self-determination. This was true certainly right up until the Gaza disengagement and then the Olmert offer. I will agree with you that Israel has since pulled back from that in recent years. Why? I'd argue its because the incitement of terror has increased in the past several years in some very concrete ways.

Israel has left space for more Arab self-determination for a hundred years now. Arab Palestinians aren't taking her up on that offer. Instead, Arab Palestinians are becoming more deeply entrenched in violent rejection of any "normalization" and more extremist propaganda against Israel and Jews.

 

[Shusha]

Would the Arabs on the West Bank like singing Hatikvah (the most beautiful national anthem in the world, both in terms of lyrics and melody)? Would they salute the Israeli flag, with its Star of David? Would they take pride in seeing a Menorah in front of the Knesset, Israel's Parliament? Would they accept the fact that only Hebrew is their national language, now that Arabic has been demoted from that position? Even Mohammed Zoabi, an Arab Israeli Zionist, opposed the Nation-State Law. The answer to all these questions is No. Therefore, even though it's tough for Jews to to give up Judea (their ancestral, historical and Biblical heartland) to those savage Arabs, I see no other way than 2 states.

Valid questions. I'm certain many would.

The hard question is what to do with those who don't. And especially those who use violence and incitement to violence to support their won't.

 

[Shusha]

They didn't fight that much prior to Israel being created

A lot of people claim this. So much so, its just accepted as one of those "everybody knows" things. I think we should question it. In particular, I think we should consider how an oppressed minority experiencing repeated pogroms every few years or few decades can be considered to be living in peaceful circumstances.

I think if you are going to challenge it you can not take it out of its historical context and judge it by today's standards of human rights.

Um. You DID see Sunni Man say on another thread just today that Jews remaining in Palestine will be restricted from certain professions, will be prevented from military service and will have to pay a dhimmi tax, didn't you? What makes you think the "historical context" is historical and not current context?

The historical context of "they didn't fight that much" is that the Jewish people were properly oppressed and generally didn't do outrageous things like, oh, I don't know....pray at their own holy places or fail to pay their special "protection" taxes.

 

[fncceo]

Israeli Jews (and American evangelicals) feel about Palestinians the same way that Nazi's felt about Jews and Gypsies.

Nice hyperbole, but demonstrably not true.

Germans put the mechanisms of industrial extermination in place in 1942. Prior to that, executions and deportations of Jews was carried out by groups of SS men using military methods. In the three years after that, the Nazis succeeded in slaughtering millions of Jews.

Israel has had administrative control of the West Bank and Gaza for over 50 years.

If they had the slightest inclination to do harm to the Palestinians, they would have been gone off this earth.

They clearly are not.

 

[Coyote]

Wait. Why?

How would Israel benefit from this?

Legitimacy,

Legitimacy? Are you suggesting that Israel is NOT legitimate?!

No. I'm suggesting their control of the WB doesn't have full legitimacy.

ability to better govern the region and all it's people under one legal system.

This sounds like an awful big and risky ask of Israel for some vague, undefined notion of "better govern".

So what do you suggest instead?

It isn't just Palestinian violence that caused the erosion of a 2 state solution. I don't think Israel ever seriously intended for it to happen. The map starkly refutes it. Given that neither side, imo, is capable of honoring it.. what is left? The status quo?

Hard disagree. First, keep in mind that for many Israelis the 2 state solution already happened. Way back in 1921 when Palestine was carved into an Arab state and a Jewish state: Israel and Jordan. I realize you may not agree with this concept, but recognize that it is the context for many Israelis and Israel-supporters (including some on this board, and often including me). What is really being asked is for a four state solution (Jordan, Gaza and Palestine for the Arabs and Israel "proper" for the Jewish people. And who knows, maybe a fifth or sixth state for the Arabs in the future. Nablus? Bethlehem?).

It is readily apparent that Israel absolutely has been willing to give up territory for (more) Arab self-determination. This was true certainly right up until the Gaza disengagement and then the Olmert offer. I will agree with you that Israel has since pulled back from that in recent years. Why? I'd argue its because the incitement of terror has increased in the past several years in some very concrete ways.

Israel has left space for more Arab self-determination for a hundred years now. Arab Palestinians aren't taking her up on that offer. Instead, Arab Palestinians are becoming more deeply entrenched in violent rejection of any "normalization" and more extremist propaganda against Israel and Jews.

I absolutely disagree on the two state thing. Hard disagree. I think the map says a lot about Israel's long term intentions. That doesn't mean the Pali's are blameless. But there are actions from Israel that pretty clearly state they have no intention of giving up any of that territory, and there are strong political forces behind it that feel that that territory is, always was, and always should be a part of Israel (particularly from the strongly religious).

I also would argue that the "incitement of terror" has some relationship to the increasing impossibility of a two state solution. Not totally - but to some degree.

So should Israel annex it? I say yes.

If it doesn't...then what is the solution?

 

[Coyote]

They didn't fight that much prior to Israel being created

A lot of people claim this. So much so, its just accepted as one of those "everybody knows" things. I think we should question it. In particular, I think we should consider how an oppressed minority experiencing repeated pogroms every few years or few decades can be considered to be living in peaceful circumstances.

I think if you are going to challenge it you can not take it out of its historical context and judge it by today's standards of human rights.

Um. You DID see Sunni Man say on another thread just today that Jews remaining in Palestine will be restricted from certain professions, will be prevented from military service and will have to pay a dhimmi tax, didn't you? What makes you think the "historical context" is historical and not current context?

The historical context of "they didn't fight that much" is that the Jewish people were properly oppressed and generally didn't do outrageous things like, oh, I don't know....pray at their own holy places or fail to pay their special "protection" taxes.

No, I didn't. But, I will say this about Sunni Man - he is a hardcore chain yanker and troller at times, it's hard to know what he really thinks. What he is saying is not too much different than Rylah's idea of a "guest status" for non Jewish citizens of Israel. Would be interesting to get Sunni Man in a serious conversation some day and pin him down but don't see that happening.

Historical context matters. And it is not the same as modern context. For one - the entire idea of "human rights" is a relatively modern concept.