What I love about the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob

[JenT]

You've got to be kidding. The two books considered most holy are the Koran and the Hadith. The Koran is believed to be the miracle of Muhammad and a proof of his prophethood. The Hadith is all about the method of Muhammed. The prayers, the continual references to Mohammed as the prophet, it's all based on what Mohammed began, it is astounding that you claim no significance.

Where did I claim no significance?

ummm, Kalam, when you quoted me, you must have deleted the quote that I was responding to?...

The holy book of Islam is the Qur'an. There is no single book called the "Hadith"... ahadith are oral traditions that discuss the life and words of the prophet and are not considered holy. There are specific hadith collections that Sunnis believe to be authentic, collections revered by Shi'a Muslims, collections accepted by both, and Islamic sects that disbelieve in the authenticity or verifiability of ahadith in general.

Kalam, have you read the Sira? Is that not a holy book? Does that not give a detailed description of Muhammed's life?

The verse you quoted is correct in that the Koran states that Allah has no son and there is no diety apart from Allah. But to claim that Mohammed is not given any more significance than every other prophet, I'm just stunned. Is this a new ploy because the method of Mohammed, approaching in peace with sword backup, outlined in the Hadith...is this a new ploy to get around those writings? Might as well, America seems to be swallowing whatever we are spoonfed in public education.

I haven't downplayed the significance of Muhammad; I pointed out that the Qur'an itself says that he isn't to be regarded as holier than or superior to other messengers. I take offense to being accused of participating in some sort of "ploy." You may be new here, but I don't think that gives you the right to accuse me of dishonesty when you really don't know anything about me or about my religion. Your mischaracterization of Muhammad's message lends weight to my belief that you've been influenced by propaganda.

When did I accuse you of being in some kind of ploy? If I have, I apologize, I don't know you personally. When did I accuse you of dishonesty? You're right, I don't know anything about you but I HAVE read quite a lot about Islam. And what is propaganda is what is being taught to our kids in public school, specifically 7th grade. Again, Kalam, what is the penalty if a Muslim converts to Christianity? It's not as peaceful as we are being told.

I've seen none of this evidence.

Well then let me help you. Let me know if you want me to list all the PhDs and textview reviewers that have condemned our public school textbooks. Fortunately, though, the CEO of the textbook outlined below "Across the Centuries" was forced into early retirement. He used to be a Muslim schoolteacher in Iran, did you know that? And his editor, Abigail Jungreis, claimed Muslims did not help write the textbook series...until articles were found where she bragged about how they did on Muslim sites. Which would explain why beliefs about Jesus in the 6th grade textbook are all the teachings OF ISLAM about Jesus, Islam's version of Jesus passed off as Christian beliefs...

Here is your evidence. Happy to help out.

ISLAM UNIT:

I. Islam Belief Statements as Fact:

"The Quran is the final revelation, just as Muhammad is the final prophet." (pg 62)

(new paragraph) "The Arabic word Quran can be loosely translated as 'recitation." In fact, the very first word the angel Gabriel spoke to Muhammad was "Recite." (pg 63) [...in FACT???]

"Ramadan is a holy time, because in this month Muhammad received his first message from Allah." (pg 63)

"He also realized that, with his mission complete, he would soon join Allah in heaven." (pg 65)

"Arabic lettering had a special significance for Muslims, because it was used to write down God's words as they had been given to Muhammad." (pg 88)

(Opening paragraph of Lesson 2 with no "belief" qualifiers) "In the year AD610, something extraordinary occurred. The first verses of the Quran, believed by Musilms to be the written record of God's words, were revealed to him at that time." (pg 58)
(Please look closely at what that sentence is saying. It states the Muslims believe it to be the written record of God's words, but it states as FACT that it was revealed by God at that time. Even the few times "Muslims believe" is noted, it is done in a deceptive way.)

"Then, in the cave, something more far-reaching happened. A being he later identified as the angel Gabriel, or Jibril (juhBREEL) in Arabic, came to him, telling him to read, or recite. Trembling, Muhammad responded that he didn't know how to read or what to read. 'Thereupon [the angel] caught me and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more.' Three times the angel pressed Muhammad, finally commanding him to

Read! In the name of your
Lord who created.
Created man from a clot
congealed blood.
Read! And your Lord is the Most
Bountiful.
He who has taught by the pen.
Taught man that which he
knew not.

Qur'an 96:1-5

"From Jerusalem, both Muhammad and Gabriel ascended into heaven, where Muhammad spoke to God." (new paragraph) "These revelations confirmed both Muhammad's belief in one God, or monotheism, and his role as the last messenger in a long line of prophets sent by God. The God he believed in - Allah - is the same God of other monotheistic religions, Judaism and Christianity." (pg 59)


"The angel told him [Muhammad] to recite in the name of God." (pg 59)


"The...mosque...allowed Muslims to feel Allah's invisible presence..." (pg 97)


"Muhammad's revelations occurred from 610 until his death in 632." (pg 61)


"Today pilgrims visit the Prophet's Cave on Mount Hira." (pg 58)


"Why did Muhammad think he was a messenger of God?" (pg 70)
(Are they looking for our children to reply, "Because of greed, lust for power, hallucinations? (not once hinted in the text). Or are they trying to compel our children to answer as fact what the text should have taught as a belief. Predetermined questions. My gosh! THINK about what our children are led to answer here!


"Since the Muslims did not necessarily encourage people to convert to Islam, why did they bother expanding their empire?" (pg 84)


Further, I object to Muhammad's wife, Aisha, (she was age 9 when he married her), describing in length what she believes Muhammad experienced as revelation. Though the textbook qualifies it as her version, it is still testimony presented as fact. (pg 58) Conversely, does the Gospel of John, where John gives the story of Jesus, qualify as textbook material?"

I. Unbelievable Leading Assignments to Children:

"Assume you are a Muslim soldier on your way to conquer Syria in the year A.D. 635. Write three journal entries that reveal your thoughts about Islam, fighting in the battle, or life in the desert." (pg 71)

(My son is forbidden from imagining fighting for Allah.)

"Form small groups of students to build a miniature mosque [place of worship]. You may decide to use cardboard, papier' mache, or other materials. Have one member do research at the library to find out what the insides of mosques look like. Have another member design a building plan. And have two members collect the building materials. Together, construct the mosque according to your plan." (pg 71)

(My son is forbidden from building places of worship to Allah.)

"You leave your home in Alexandria for the pilgrimage to Mecca. [previously described as a holy religious event0. Using the map on page 53 and other atlases, write a letter describing your route, the landscapes and peoples you see as you travel and any incidents that happen along the way. Describe what you see in Mecca." (pg 71)

(My son is forbidden from imagining he is on a pilgrimage to "holy" Mecca, which is done as worship to Allah. [Teachers now can, and some do, require our kids to get on their hands and knees and recite prayers to Allah, thanks to President Clinton. Bush put a stop to it. Obama is now negotiating.]

"Why do you think the Arabs and others in Southwest Asia would have been attracted to Islam? Explain your reason." (pg 64)

(This is nothing short of brainwashing! First our children are shown a false god, shown how Muslims worship him, told to imagine being a Muslim, write about it in many ways and then to write what is good about it. All the time claiming this does not proselytize?!?)

Meanwhile Christianity and Judeo beliefs are dissed to the extreme.

I've seen nothing of this sort either.

Well let me help you again with one example:

In A MESSAGE OF ANCIENT DAYS (6th grade)

In the Islam section, our children are asked to assume they are Muslim soldiers, being on a Mecca pilgrimage (act of worship), to research and build Mosques. Many California schools have asked children to get on their hands and knees and repeat words of prayer to Allah. I was anxious to see what the Jewish and Christian sections told children to imagine.

In the Jewish section, the ONLY fun imagination practice I could find was to imagine they are with the Jews when they were conquered and forced to live away from their homeland. (pg 314)

In the Christian section, the ONLY fun imagination practice was to imagine being in the buried catacombs of the dead Christians. (pg 469)

Tacitus shared the Roman view that Christians should be convicted (death) for their “hatred against mankind.” (Christian Unit pg 464) No examples of hate are given, our children are just left hanging with that thought.

The textbook puts Christianity at the top of the list for reasons of “The Cause of the Fall” (Christian Unit pg 480)

“Christians were more devoted to their faith and to the church than to the Roman state.”

Everything about Christianity is presented in the negative, there is nothing about Jesus dying for our sins, only that we believe everyone will go to hell if you don't believe what we believe.

I don't really have a problem with teachers not teaching about Christianity because darkness cannot teach the light if the teacher is not a Christian. But after pages and chapters of emotionally charged Muslim beliefs presented AS FACT to our kids, I called foul. It made a difference then, President Bush rewrote the public school guidelines but now HILLARY is negotiating with Muslim leaders. And America DOES NOT UNDERSTAND how important the spread of Islam is to Muslim leaders.

It's obvious to anyone that reads the evidence, shocking but obvious, and backed up by other reporters and a pdf of the court case. It's one of the biggest hushed stories in the media. Newsmax and WND confirmed it all and added their own findings.

How Clinton Sold
Our Children to Islam
How Clinton Surrendered Children Islam

I might find the information more compelling if it was presented by less biased source... and if it didn't directly contradict the impression of the public school system that I have as a result of my experiences with it.

I am the source, Kalam, and I did a TON of research. At first I was told I was reading the wrong translation so I got copies of ALL the translations I could find from pro-Muslim sources and guess what, they all said the same things by Muslims, quoted earlier.

I am not saying you are part of a plot, Kalam. I am just telling you what is in our textbooks and what is in Islam's holy books and they are not the same.

 

[xotoxi]

And what is propaganda is what is being taught to our kids in public school, specifically 7th grade.

I was never taught Islam in 7th grade, or any other grade. Nor was I taught any other religion in public school.

The closest I would have come to being taught religion would have been discussing the Christian Crusaders from a purely historical perspective.

Now things may have changed in the past 20 years, but I doubt it. I'm sure that some poor kid is using the same textbooks that I used.

 

[JenT]

and who are you and Sunni trying to villify right now?

Nobody. I gain nothing at this point from the vilification of any person or group of people. I have pointed out the tendency of many people, including you, to stress the differences between religions and belief systems rather than similarities. I have expressed my belief that this type of thought inhibits forward movement.

Really? Because when you quoted Sunni claiming twice that I attacked Muslims when all he was trying to do was find common ground, I thought it made me sound kind of villanous.

Again, all I did was post why I love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Sunni Man told me I had to include Ishmael.

I stated why I don't. It's not Biblical.

I have posted Biblical backup. I was asked to quote the Koran and I did. Are you trying to silence me? If I don't accept that we have common ground, suddenly you're posting and reposting that I'm attacking???

Last time I looked this was a free country though that's looking perilous, and now politically correct pressure to embrace Islam? Right here from a poster on this message board.

Jen, you're being ridiculous. I'm pressuring you to embrace Islam?

Well, the thing is, if I don't agree we're on common ground, I am painted as attacking when really I'm defending my religious freedom and beliefs...does this sound familiar on a larger scale?

Are you familiar with the term "strawman argument"? I've simply suggested that you abandon your prejudicial beliefs regarding Islam because, frankly, they're based on prevarications and propagandistic nonsense.

noooooooooooo they're based on cold hard fact with direct quotes all over the place.

It's not even that which I'm primarily concerned with. I simply feel compelled to defend my religious beliefs when they're attacked. If you're interested in putting forward some sort of criticism of Islam, feel free to start a thread on the subject. I'll try to respond as soon as I'm made aware of its existence.

Are you serious? I start a thread about my beliefs about God, Sunni comes in and tells me what my beliefs should be according to Islam, you say "I feel compelled to defend my religious beliefs" so now you are suggesting I open a thread attacking Islam? LOLOLOLOLOLOL oooooooooookay..........

That really depends on what you mean by Sharia law. True Islamic law, Qur'anic law, mentions no punishment for apostasy and only describes its ramifications in the hereafter. If you can find a passage in the Qur'an that specifies an earthly punishment for apostasy, feel free to share it with me.

Modern schools of jurisprudence follow a convoluted form of Sharia based mostly on the accumulated whims and prejudices of individual "Islamic" jurists and have strayed quite far from their Qur'anic origins.

And the Sira? What about the Sira, Kalam?

You are accusing me of being dishonest. I kindly suggest that you stop.

Please show me where I accuse you of anything and I too will stop.

Your beliefs are not an abomination to you and I respect that. Believe whatever you want to believe. But you do not have the authority to tell me that I must include Ishmael when I speak of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It's not Biblical.

That is between you and Sunni Man. I will say, though, I don't think he ever told you that you must include anything.

The exact word was "should" to which I gave Biblical reasons why I do not. If that is an attack to you, then what do you suggest I do? Should I guess?

And for teachers to tell my children to get on their hands and knees and pray to Allah and repeat by heart that Allah is the only god worthy of praise and Mohammed is his messenger...THAT is very much an abomination and violation of my religious freedom as well as my children's .

That has not happened.

[/QUOTE]

It happened at my son's school, and I never would have known about it except I asked. It happened in Byron County and a little girl was treated badly because her mother wrote a note and asked that she be excused. RIGHT NOW it is on our legal books that teachers nationwide can REQUIRE our children get on their hands and knees and pray words of worship to Allah, memorized by heart. They can REQUIRE that they take Muslim names and recite these prayers as they leave the classroom every day for two weeks in a simulated Islam course. No, teachers are NOT trying to convert our kids, but they have the authority to require our children to do these things. And Hillary Clinton, who befriended Alamoudi, a man now convicted of terrorist activities, helped President Clinton write the religious guidelines that opened the door to all this, SHE is negotiating with Muslim leaders, appointed by Obama who is OH SO FRIENDLY bowing down to Islam and showing his heels to Israel.

And America sleeps on.

 

[xotoxi]

RIGHT NOW it is on our legal books that teachers nationwide can REQUIRE our children get on their hands and knees and pray words of worship to Allah, memorized by heart. They can REQUIRE that they take Muslim names and recite these prayers as they leave the classroom every day for two weeks in a simulated Islam course.

Bullfuckingshit!

 

[JenT]

And what is propaganda is what is being taught to our kids in public school, specifically 7th grade.

I was never taught Islam in 7th grade, or any other grade. Nor was I taught any other religion in public school.

The closest I would have come to being taught religion would have been discussing the Christian Crusaders from a purely historical perspective.

Now things may have changed in the past 20 years, but I doubt it. I'm sure that some poor kid is using the same textbooks that I used.

Lol Xotoxi, you think times haven't changed? I wish it were so. I would still be in my beloved mountains.

 

[JenT]

RIGHT NOW it is on our legal books that teachers nationwide can REQUIRE our children get on their hands and knees and pray words of worship to Allah, memorized by heart. They can REQUIRE that they take Muslim names and recite these prayers as they leave the classroom every day for two weeks in a simulated Islam course.

Bullfuckingshit!

honey, I already posted the PDF of the court case. It went all the way to the US Supreme Court and they denied hearing it. I'm sorry but it's so true. Thomas Moore presented the case. Judge Phyllis Hamilton presided. Backed up by the 9th Circuit Court.

And guess who appointed Hamilton? Clinton.

 

[xotoxi]

RIGHT NOW it is on our legal books that teachers nationwide can REQUIRE our children get on their hands and knees and pray words of worship to Allah, memorized by heart. They can REQUIRE that they take Muslim names and recite these prayers as they leave the classroom every day for two weeks in a simulated Islam course.

Bullfuckingshit!

honey, I already posted the PDF of the court case. It went all the way to the US Supreme Court and they denied hearing it. I'm sorry but it's so true. Thomas Moore presented the case. Judge Phyllis Hamilton presided. Backed up by the 9th Circuit Court.

And guess who appointed Hamilton? Clinton.

Just because the SC makes a ruling doesn't mean that it is a law.

 

[random3434]

RIGHT NOW it is on our legal books that teachers nationwide can REQUIRE our children get on their hands and knees and pray words of worship to Allah, memorized by heart. They can REQUIRE that they take Muslim names and recite these prayers as they leave the classroom every day for two weeks in a simulated Islam course.

Bullfuckingshit!

honey, I already posted the PDF of the court case. It went all the way to the US Supreme Court and they denied hearing it. I'm sorry but it's so true. Thomas Moore presented the case. Judge Phyllis Hamilton presided. Backed up by the 9th Circuit Court.

And guess who appointed Hamilton? Clinton.

Hi JenT!

Wow, this is shocking news. Can you please post the link to that law? I guess I haven't gotten the memo yet from my school. I want to be prepared when I go back in a month, so I don't break any laws!

Thanks!

 

[Barb]

Basically, all I did was point out that Ishmael, the first son of Abraham, was included in the eternal blessings that God promised Abraham.

The next thing I read is JenT attacking Islam, Muslims, and Muhammad.

This is typical when ever I deal with most Christians.

I was just seeking common ground and a friendly dialogue.

But she immediately went on the attack.

Kind of sad

It happens a lot, even within our religion. Some people are determined to vilify other belief systems or religious interpretations and refuse to emphasize common ground and positive aspects of the beliefs of others.

and who are you and Sunni trying to villify right now?

Again, all I did was post why I love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Sunni Man told me I had to include Ishmael.

I stated why I don't. It's not Biblical.

I have posted Biblical backup. I was asked to quote the Koran and I did. Are you trying to silence me? If I don't accept that we have common ground, suddenly you're posting and reposting that I'm attacking???

Last time I looked this was a free country though that's looking perilous, and now politically correct pressure to embrace Islam? Right here from a poster on this message board.

Which is ironic because Kalam, tell me, what does Sharia law say is to happen to anyone that converts to Christianity? What is Sharia law based on?

Apparently Islam, approaching in "peace", is keenly aware of the differences, even as you claim common ground. Sure like that's REALLY common ground...something to be killed over.

Again, Jen, I don't want to sound mean or condescending, but your posts regarding Islam reek of exposure to propaganda. I don't possess the self control necessary to sit silently while my religious beliefs are being misconstrued and presented as some sort of abomination.

Your beliefs are not an abomination to you and I respect that. Believe whatever you want to believe. But you do not have the authority to tell me that I must include Ishmael when I speak of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It's not Biblical.

And for teachers to tell my children to get on their hands and knees and pray to Allah and repeat by heart that Allah is the only god worthy of praise and Mohammed is his messenger...THAT is very much an abomination and violation of my religious freedom as well as my children's .

PDF of the court case allowing teachers to require students in 7th grade to recite worship to Allah by heart
http://www.blessedcause.org/protest/Islam Ruling 12-05-03.pdf

How is Ishmael not biblical? Sarah ordered a slave (Hagar) to have sex with her husband and produce a child (Ishmael) because she couldn't at the time. (I would call that accessory to rape, but times were different then). Then, when Sarah did conceive, she saw Isaac and Ishmael playing together, and didn't want the bastard boy inheriting her legitimate son's legacy. She insisted they be sent away,into the desert to die, "God" told Abraham to obey his wife, and when Hagar cried in the desert for lack of water and fear that her and her child would die, God sent water and a message that Ishmael would live, and that he too would be a leader of nations. Its all in Genesis 21:8-10, so I'd like to know how you came to believe Ishmael (God Hears) is not part of Abraham, half-brother to Isaac, and ignored by the God of your bible.

 

[xotoxi]

Bullfuckingshit!

honey, I already posted the PDF of the court case. It went all the way to the US Supreme Court and they denied hearing it. I'm sorry but it's so true. Thomas Moore presented the case. Judge Phyllis Hamilton presided. Backed up by the 9th Circuit Court.

And guess who appointed Hamilton? Clinton.

Hi JenT!

Wow, this is shocking news. Can you please post the link to that law? I guess I haven't gotten the memo yet from my school. I want to be prepared when I go back in a month, so I don't break any laws!

Thanks!

EZ...make sure that you use Google Earth to determine the exact direction from your classroom to Mecca.

 

[Kalam]

You've got to be kidding. The two books considered most holy are the Koran and the Hadith. The Koran is believed to be the miracle of Muhammad and a proof of his prophethood. The Hadith is all about the method of Muhammed. The prayers, the continual references to Mohammed as the prophet, it's all based on what Mohammed began, it is astounding that you claim no significance.

Where did I claim no significance?

ummm, Kalam, when you quoted me, you must have deleted the quote that I was responding to?...

I try to limit quotations to what I'm directly addressing. Why? Where in that post did I claim that Muhammad was insignificant...?

Kalam, have you read the Sira? Is that not a holy book? Does that not give a detailed description of Muhammed's life?

Sirat Rasul Allah? By Ibn Ishaq? Lord, no, it isn't a holy book. It's a biography of questionable accuracy that was written over 150 years after Muhammad's death. Why would it be considered holy?

When did I accuse you of being in some kind of ploy? If I have, I apologize, I don't know you personally. When did I accuse you of dishonesty?

Presumably in reference to my post, you said:

"Is this a new ploy because the method of Mohammed, approaching in peace with sword backup, outlined in the Hadith...is this a new ploy to get around those writings?"

You're right, I don't know anything about you but I HAVE read quite a lot about Islam.

Yet most of what you've posted about it is incorrect.

And what is propaganda is what is being taught to our kids in public school, specifically 7th grade. Again, Kalam, what is the penalty if a Muslim converts to Christianity? It's not as peaceful as we are being told.

I've answered that question.

Well then let me help you. Let me know if you want me to list all the PhDs and textview reviewers that have condemned our public school textbooks. Fortunately, though, the CEO of the textbook outlined below "Across the Centuries" was forced into early retirement. He used to be a Muslim schoolteacher in Iran, did you know that? And his editor, Abigail Jungreis, claimed Muslims did not help write the textbook series...until articles were found where she bragged about how they did on Muslim sites. Which would explain why beliefs about Jesus in the 6th grade textbook are all the teachings OF ISLAM about Jesus, Islam's version of Jesus passed off as Christian beliefs...

The CEO is out of the picture. The textbook was never used widely and presumably is no longer used. What, exactly, is the problem?

(My son is forbidden from imagining fighting for Allah.)

(My son is forbidden from building places of worship to Allah.)

(My son is forbidden from imagining he is on a pilgrimage to "holy" Mecca, which is done as worship to Allah.)

How unfortunate. My children will be free to follow the religion of their choice or none at all.

[Teachers now can, and some do, require our kids to get on their hands and knees and recite prayers to Allah, thanks to President Clinton. Bush put a stop to it. Obama is now negotiating.]

Where can I see these teachers performing Islamic prayer rituals?

Well let me help you again with one example:

From the same defunct textbook that was never widely distributed in the first place?

Any other examples?

I am the source, Kalam, and I did a TON of research.

Your research has led to to incorrect conclusions.

Citing yourself as a source is hardly compelling...

At first I was told I was reading the wrong translation so I got copies of ALL the translations I could find from pro-Muslim sources and guess what, they all said the same things by Muslims, quoted earlier.

The specific translation you choose to read won't make a difference if you're merely skimming the text for violent-sounding quotes to display on your website.

I am not saying you are part of a plot, Kalam. I am just telling you what is in our textbooks and what is in Islam's holy books and they are not the same.

I do not see any evidence of a widespread or significant problem.

 

[Kalam]

Really? Because when you quoted Sunni claiming twice that I attacked Muslims when all he was trying to do was find common ground, I thought it made me sound kind of villanous.

I can't help what you think, Jen.

Well, the thing is, if I don't agree we're on common ground, I am painted as attacking when really I'm defending my religious freedom and beliefs...does this sound familiar on a larger scale?

I don't understand how criticizing your vilification of Islam can be considered an attempt to suppress religious freedom on my part.

noooooooooooo they're based on cold hard fact with direct quotes all over the place.

Your quotes are presented out-of-context and misleadingly.

Are you serious? I start a thread about my beliefs about God, Sunni comes in and tells me what my beliefs should be according to Islam, you say "I feel compelled to defend my religious beliefs" so now you are suggesting I open a thread attacking Islam? LOLOLOLOLOLOL oooooooooookay..........

I'm suggesting that you expose your beliefs about Islam to my criticism. I don't want to derail your thread here any more than I already have, so I suggested that you start a new topic. You don't need me to tell you that you can do whatever you want.

And the Sira? What about the Sira, Kalam?

I don't know, what about it? Are you asking why I don't support the use of a dubious biographical work as the basis for religious law?

Please show me where I accuse you of anything and I too will stop.

In my last post... the "plot"?

Also:

"Apparently Islam, approaching in "peace", is keenly aware of the differences, even as you claim common ground."

You're implying that I was being dishonest when I claimed that Islam and Christianity share common ground. You're implying that I'm using some sort of "Islamic" method of lying and appearing peaceful to lure you into accepting my religion.

The exact word was "should" to which I gave Biblical reasons why I do not. If that is an attack to you, then what do you suggest I do? Should I guess?

I'm not sure what you're asking me here.

And for teachers to tell my children to get on their hands and knees and pray to Allah and repeat by heart that Allah is the only god worthy of praise and Mohammed is his messenger...THAT is very much an abomination and violation of my religious freedom as well as my children's .

Teachers told your children to do this? Your children were required to prostrate themselves in submission to Allah and complete a rakat of prayer in public school? I have a hard time believing that.

 

[JenT]

Bullfuckingshit!

honey, I already posted the PDF of the court case. It went all the way to the US Supreme Court and they denied hearing it. I'm sorry but it's so true. Thomas Moore presented the case. Judge Phyllis Hamilton presided. Backed up by the 9th Circuit Court.

And guess who appointed Hamilton? Clinton.

Hi JenT!

Wow, this is shocking news. Can you please post the link to that law? I guess I haven't gotten the memo yet from my school. I want to be prepared when I go back in a month, so I don't break any laws!

Thanks!

Anyone ever hear of stare decisis? Setting precedent? Courts being bound by similar cases already adjudicated? The 9th Circuit may not have jurisdiction over the east coast but that ruling is allowed to argue cases anywhere, and with the US Supreme Court refusing to hear it, it stands, and that gives all kinds of legal leverage, especially when the ACLU knows how to wield it. Parents with children in public schools are not going to be advised by their lawyers to take the school system to court over their children bowing down to Allah because precedent has been set, and again, by refusing to even hear it, the US Supreme Court has already sent the message. It stands.

 

[JenT]

Where did I claim no significance?

ummm, Kalam, when you quoted me, you must have deleted the quote that I was responding to?...

I try to limit quotations to what I'm directly addressing. Why? Where in that post did I claim that Muhammad was insignificant...?

I WROTE:
But the cornerstone of Ilsam is the "shahada" which states:

"I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His servant and messenger."

YOU WROTE: That is because belief in Muhammad's status as a messenger is one of the primary distinctions between Islam and similar belief systems.

Say: We believe in Allah and that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them and to Him do we submit. - 2:136

Sirat Rasul Allah? By Ibn Ishaq? Lord, no, it isn't a holy book. It's a biography of questionable accuracy that was written over 150 years after Muhammad's death. Why would it be considered holy?

Presumably in reference to my post, you said:

"Is this a new ploy because the method of Mohammed, approaching in peace with sword backup, outlined in the Hadith...is this a new ploy to get around those writings?"

Yet most of what you've posted about it is incorrect.

Mary Habeck, Associate Professor of Yale University and highly respected military historian disagrees with you. She presented "Jihadist Ideology" covered by C-Span. Habeck explained the military strategies based on Islam's holy books, the Quran, the Hadith and the Sira. According to Habeck, the Sira is not well known in the West but very widely known in the Islamic world defining the "Method of Muhammad." Habeck says that in the Sira, Muhammad is the perfect man believed to have the perfect method for applying Islam. Jihadis believe that his successes were so miraculous they could only have been supported by Allah and if they want to experience the same success, they have to follow Muhammad’s footsteps exactly.

Mary Habeck method of Muhammad

Kind of sounds like what Osama bin Laden was saying, doesn't it?

I've answered that question.

You asked me where it was written, here is one I believe there are more

Hadith Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

The CEO is out of the picture. The textbook was never used widely and presumably is no longer used. What, exactly, is the problem?

The textbook I quoted is one of the biggest textbook producers in the country! Houghton Mifflin (publisher) is NATIONWIDE and very popular! Textbooks are not cheap and schools try to use them for a decade or more. They are still using this book at my son's school.

How unfortunate. My children will be free to follow the religion of their choice or none at all.

Great. Now that my sons are old enough, they decide for themselves but in the 6th and 7th grade they were impressionable and easily led astray. SoundVision, an Islam education outlet, even wrote about this though they have removed it from their website since my article came out:

• "School students are routinely exposed in their classroom to new information and opinions, hence they tend to be more receptive to new beliefs and ideas. Schools are therefore fertile grounds where the seeds of Islam can be sowed inside the hearts of non-Muslim students. Muslim students should take ample advantage of this opportunity and expose their school mates to the beautiful beliefs of Islam."
  
• "It has been proven that one to one contact with non-Muslim students in the classroom is the most effective way to share Islam...It is advised that brother work on the non-Muslim boys and likewise sister work on girls."

Where can I see these teachers performing Islamic prayer rituals?

I encourage every parent to check with their local teacher. I have heard from different parents all over the nation complaining about it.

From the same defunct textbook that was never widely distributed in the first place? Any other examples?

so you just wave your hand over a national textbook, call it defunct and it goes away?

Your research has led to to incorrect conclusions.

And what do you base that on?

Citing yourself as a source is hardly compelling...

The thing is, when God wants it heard, it doesn't matter if it comes from an unknown soccer mom, it gets heard. The Associated Press, FoxNews, USA Today, New York Post, Washington Times, Assist News, Salon, Michael Medved, even the very liberal Village Voice to name a few.

At first I was told I was reading the wrong translation so I got copies of ALL the translations I could find from pro-Muslim sources and guess what, they all said the same things by Muslims, quoted earlier.

The specific translation you choose to read won't make a difference if you're merely skimming the text for violent-sounding quotes to display on your website.

If a holy book says "kill the infidel" and the infidel is killed, does it really matter how anybody finds it?

I am not saying you are part of a plot, Kalam. I am just telling you what is in our textbooks and what is in Islam's holy books and they are not the same.

I do not see any evidence of a widespread or significant problem.

I know. Hillary is still negotiating. We feel safer already.



Take care Kalam! Nice chattin with ya!

 

[JBeukema]

honey, I already posted the PDF of the court case. It went all the way to the US Supreme Court and they denied hearing it. I'm sorry but it's so true. Thomas Moore presented the case. Judge Phyllis Hamilton presided. Backed up by the 9th Circuit Court.

And guess who appointed Hamilton? Clinton.

Hi JenT!

Wow, this is shocking news. Can you please post the link to that law? I guess I haven't gotten the memo yet from my school. I want to be prepared when I go back in a month, so I don't break any laws!

Thanks!

Anyone ever hear of stare decisis? Setting precedent? Courts being bound by similar cases already adjudicated? The 9th Circuit may not have jurisdiction over the east coast but.....

Noone takes the Ninth Circus seriously, even other courts

 

[JenT]

Noone takes the Ninth Circus seriously, even other courts

WOW that's a sigh of relief! Whew! Thanks JB, I guess I wasted all my time...glad that's over

Seriously, I sure hope you're right, but the ACLU is party to it and they know how to use leverage.

And really, Clinton set this up in the first place. Bush shot it down. Do you really have faith in Obama??? After the way he's been shmoozing Islam and appointing Hillary Sec of State, the woman who was buds with Alamoudi?

It just seems a tiny bit coincidental...but I hope you're right, I really do.

 

[JBeukema]

Do you really have faith in Obama???

You're an idiot

 

[Montrovant]

Hi JenT, I made some comments about the link you provided back on page 6 of this thread. There's been plenty of discussion and I imagine it got lost in the din

I read the document and it did not, that I saw, say anything about students being made to bow or kneel and recite Muslim prayer. If I missed something and you'd be willing to point out where it did, I would appreciate it.

You seem to be speaking about Islam as an authority. Is there no space for different sect or interpretations within the religion, as there is in Christianity? I feel pretty sure JB could spend plenty of time telling you why you are wrong in your beliefs about the Bible and Christianity (he seems to have a penchant for doing that on this board ) but I doubt you would agree with his take. I don't want to speak for Kalam, or even try to tell you your reading of Islam is wrong, but I imagine that what you consider to be truths concerning the religion may simply be a different interpretation than his.

I don't have any religious beliefs; I'm certainly not attempting to promote any one religion as right. In my eyes they are all wrong I have simply seen and been involved in enough religious debates to realize that even the seemingly obvious can be open to many interpretations depending on who is doing the reading. That's true in any situation, but especially so with religion.

 

[Bfgrn]

Are you using the word "god" as an adjective proper, a personal or a proper noun? as in a name identifying Eloheim? Because there are many "gods" as in judges but only One Eloheim, who is also often referred to in the plural because of the Trinity.



I would say that geocities has just lost all credibility and proved itself completely biased then, because no where does it mention a thigh to be a fetus or an infant in Hebrew.

I chose verse 27 because I think that's the closest you can attempt to grasp to make your insane case, and this is Rashi's commentary on it, a well known Jewish scholar. If you want a different verse just let me know.

27. He shall make her drink the water, and it shall be that, if she had been defiled and was unfaithful to her husband, the curse bearing waters shall enter her to become bitter, and her belly will swell, and her thigh will rupture. The woman will be a curse among her people. כז. וְהִשְׁקָהּ אֶת הַמַּיִם וְהָיְתָה אִם נִטְמְאָה וַתִּמְעֹל מַעַל בְּאִישָׁהּ וּבָאוּ בָהּ הַמַּיִם הַמְאָרֲרִים לְמָרִים וְצָבְתָה בִטְנָהּ וְנָפְלָה יְרֵכָהּ וְהָיְתָה הָאִשָּׁה לְאָלָה בְּקֶרֶב עַמָּהּ:
He shall make her drink the water: [The repetition of this statement is meant] to include that if she says, “I refuse to drink” after the scroll [in which God’s name is written] has been erased [by the water], they pour it into her, making her drink it against her will, unless [she admits and] says, “I have been defiled.” - [Sotah 19b] והשקה את המים: לרבות שאם אמרה איני שותה לאחר שנמחקה מגלה, מערערין אותה ומשקין אותה בעל כרחה, אלא אם כן אמרה טמאה אני:
her belly will swell: Although in reference to the curse, the thigh is mentioned first, the water tests [the body] only in the order it enters it [which is first the belly and then the thigh]. - [Sotah 9b] וצבתה בטנה וגו': אף על פי שבקללה הזכיר ירך תחילה, המים אין בודקין אלא דרך כניסתן בה:
The woman will be a curse: As I explained (verse 21), everyone will curse by her [name]. — [Sifrei Naso 1:73] והיתה האשה לאלה: כמו שפירשתי שהיו הכל אלין בה:
among her people: There is a difference between a person who is disgraced in a place where he is known and a person who is disgraced in a place where he is unknown. — [Sifrei Naso 1:64]

Sorry but I don't have time to edit out all the Hebrew translation right now...late

Chhhhhh, geocities wrote no Christian would touch this? Obviously not an impartial source.

OK, I see that you would rather obfuscate than answer...

Let's try this...how many creators are there?

I suggest you educate yourself on WHY the evangelical right became politically active. It had nothing to do with Roe v. Wade; they really had no problem with that ruling.It was because the IRS went after Robert Jones University over their racial discrimination.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! you BLATENTLY try to put forth facts you have NO clue what you're talking about, it doesn't hold up for a second and suddenly my response (which nailed your accusation to the wall) is obfuscating???

face it! God IS that He IS and He died that we could be reconciled to Him! How many obstacles are you gonna run and try to collect to escape that?

WOW...You are confused...YOUR obfuscation is to MY question, which you refuse to answer: how many creators are there?

Here are some TRUTHS about the Bible...it is the word of MAN; sinners. The clouds did not open up and the Bible did not fall to earth...it was not written by the hand of God. It is interpretations of God's words and actions. It contains written word to support or deny almost any position...abortion is just one of them...You can scream, shout, laugh and show all the incredulity you want; BUT, the debate over the meaning of Numbers 5 and numerous other passages is not over, it will continue to go on just as it HAS gone on...

Now please answer my question... how many creators are there?

 

[JenT]

Do you really have faith in Obama???

You're an idiot

oh Im DEVESTATED!