What I love about the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob

[Kalam]

You need to understand that attributing one's accomplishments fully to oneself is a great step of faith because there is no "proof" that you actually accomplished it alone.

I can assume that I've accomplished something in the absence of any intervening supernatural entity until the existence of that entity is demonstrated via valid and sound logical arguments. I'm afraid that this does not involve faith...

There are indeed influences around us. Many of them are very powerful, and even drive our decisions in a particular direction. However, the one thing you were correct about is that our choice to receive or denying the influences is indeed yours. What that choice does in your life is often directly connected to the source of the influence. The rightness of all of the other influences is just as impossible to prove as the influence of God. We cannot always point a finger exactly at the actual influencing source, or prove that it is actually the source. I choose to see God as the greatest of all inspirations in living a life on faith.

There's nothing wrong with that, but I choose not to subscribe to such a belief system. Existence and consciousness are sufficient inspirations for me to live my life as I see fit. The God I conceive of does not take particular interest in the specifics of my religious beliefs; they're simply a means of attaining happiness in my own life and developing a conception of God that, IMO, is consistent with rationality and modern science.

You said, "Wouldn't the need to intervene to solve problems within his own creation imply a lack of foreknowledge on God's part? " Absolutely not, when He has given the fullness of free will in our lives. We mess up, and His intervention is a blessing.

A God with foreknowledge and omniscience would have ordered the universe in such a way that intervention would be unnecessary for things to play out according to what God had already planned. Your statements here seem contradictory - there is no free will if our lives are subject to forced change by way of divine intervention.

 

[JenT]

by "higher" if you thought I meant diety, you're right, but I didn't mean that.

But the cornerstone of Ilsam is the "shahada" which states:

"I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His servant and messenger."

That is because belief in Muhammad's status as a messenger is one of the primary distinctions between Islam and similar belief systems.

Say: We believe in Allah and that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them and to Him do we submit. - 2:136​

You've got to be kidding. The two books considered most holy are the Koran and the Hadith. The Koran is believed to be the miracle of Muhammad and a proof of his prophethood. The Hadith is all about the method of Muhammed. The prayers, the continual references to Mohammed as the prophet, it's all based on what Mohammed began, it is astounding that you claim no significance.

The verse you quoted is correct in that the Koran states that Allah has no son and there is no diety apart from Allah. But to claim that Mohammed is not given any more significance than every other prophet, I'm just stunned. Is this a new ploy because the method of Mohammed, approaching in peace with sword backup, outlined in the Hadith...is this a new ploy to get around those writings? Might as well, America seems to be swallowing whatever we are spoonfed in public education.

And this is EXACTLY what teachers have been asking students to repeat and memorize in class so we can "understand" what it is to be Muslim.

Talk about a rip of religious freedom. I did NOT send my sons to public school so they could memorize prayers and speak words of praise and worship to other gods.

Judge Hamilton stated that because the child in the lawsuit over this didn't actually BELIEVE what he was told to memorize and repeat, it was allowable.

Any teacher in this nation has the legal authority to have our kids do this. The US Supreme Court wouldn't hear the case. Our government has negotiated with terrorists and this ruling is poised for future use.

Jen, I don't mean to be insulting when I tell you that you're being paranoid. As someone who is familiar with public school systems and curricula, I can say with confidence that Islam is talked about infrequently and is generally only discussed within a historical context. Fundamental beliefs may be outlined, but the government isn't out to convert your children to Islam. Any attempt to use an isolated occurrence to characterize the public school system at large is shamefully propagandistic.

Kalam, I didn't mean to imply that public school teachers are all out to convert our children to Islam. I know many teachers and that isn't the case at all. But there is a ton of evidence that points to Bill Clinton negotiating with Muslim leaders to introduce a lot of very pro-Islam curricula that is in our textbooks today. Meanwhile Christianity and Judeo beliefs are dissed to the extreme.

It's obvious to anyone that reads the evidence, shocking but obvious, and backed up by other reporters and a pdf of the court case. It's one of the biggest hushed stories in the media. Newsmax and WND confirmed it all and added their own findings.

How Clinton Sold
Our Children to Islam
How Clinton Surrendered Children Islam

 

[JBeukema]

A God with foreknowledge and omniscience would have ordered the universe in such a way that intervention would be unnecessary for things to play out according to what God had already planned..

you assume that such a being is intelligent, benevolent, and possessing no psychological complex.

 

[JenT]

Basically, all I did was point out that Ishmael, the first son of Abraham, was included in the eternal blessings that God promised Abraham.

The next thing I read is JenT attacking Islam, Muslims, and Muhammad.

This is typical when ever I deal with most Christians.

I was just seeking common ground and a friendly dialogue.

But she immediately went on the attack.

Kind of sad

It happens a lot, even within our religion. Some people are determined to vilify other belief systems or religious interpretations and refuse to emphasize common ground and positive aspects of the beliefs of others.

and who are you and Sunni trying to villify right now?

Again, all I did was post why I love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Sunni Man told me I had to include Ishmael.

I stated why I don't. It's not Biblical.

I have posted Biblical backup. I was asked to quote the Koran and I did. Are you trying to silence me? If I don't accept that we have common ground, suddenly you're posting and reposting that I'm attacking???

Last time I looked this was a free country though that's looking perilous, and now politically correct pressure to embrace Islam? Right here from a poster on this message board.

Which is ironic because Kalam, tell me, what does Sharia law say is to happen to anyone that converts to Christianity? What is Sharia law based on?

Apparently Islam, approaching in "peace", is keenly aware of the differences, even as you claim common ground. Sure like that's REALLY common ground...something to be killed over.

Again, Jen, I don't want to sound mean or condescending, but your posts regarding Islam reek of exposure to propaganda. I don't possess the self control necessary to sit silently while my religious beliefs are being misconstrued and presented as some sort of abomination.

Your beliefs are not an abomination to you and I respect that. Believe whatever you want to believe. But you do not have the authority to tell me that I must include Ishmael when I speak of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It's not Biblical.

And for teachers to tell my children to get on their hands and knees and pray to Allah and repeat by heart that Allah is the only god worthy of praise and Mohammed is his messenger...THAT is very much an abomination and violation of my religious freedom as well as my children's .

PDF of the court case allowing teachers to require students in 7th grade to recite worship to Allah by heart
http://www.blessedcause.org/protest/Islam Ruling 12-05-03.pdf

 

[Bob Noxious]

If you don't convert to Islam willingly, Muslims will either force you to or kill you, themselves or both of you trying. I think they're jealous because we got all the good clothes.

 

[Montrovant]

JenT, reading through the link you provided, I wanted to point out that it specifies the students were NOT made to bow or kneel.

Further, according to the document, the teacher made very clear that any recitation of Muslim prayer was merely as a tool to teach about the religion and in no way made any of the students Muslim, or was to endorse Islam.

Also, if I have read this correctly, there were two children of this family involved. The first went through the role-playing Islam module, the second was allowed to skip it with a note from her parents.

The biggest question I have, which is not answered in the court records, is just how much time is spent on learning about religions. If a great deal more time is spent on Islam than any other religion, I would disagree with the practice. But your assertion that your children will be forced to get on hands and knees and pray to Allah doesn't seem to be upheld by the document your provided.

 

[xotoxi]

I've always had an affinity toward God. I think my parents thought i was kind of odd but went along with it. I didn't first meet Him in Sunday school where I was chastised because I didn't understand how to look anything up. I could just sense Him sometimes.

I always considered myself Christian even though I had no clue who He was. The Bible confused me because I couldn't get how behaving like Lot with his daughters (incest) equated to God whenever I tried to read the Bible from cover to cover.

So I dove into my teens and twenties with all the discernment of your average teenager...got into tons of trouble, laughed a lot but inside felt empty and wrong.

Then God exploded into my life after I filed for divorce. Somebody must have been praying for me because I was hounded by Christians dragging me to Bible Study, where I learned that living with my current romance of the month wasn't completely okay with God...

so I sadly put my lifestyle on the shelf and started lining up with what HE said instead of what I wanted...and lo and behold I discovered an indescribable relationship with the Creator of the universe that transends all understanding. A fullness within myself that I couldn't find anywhere else on the planet, a communion with Him, a sense of peace and joy even through crisis and confrontation and kaos. He rocked my world.

And He gave me back a sense of myself that I didn't even realize I lost before. It was like I had been sitting in gutter mud and didn't even know it until He came by and washed me clean, a restoring of my soul.

So many twists and turns my life has been through since then, and He has been my rock.

And now when I read people claiming there is no God, or demands of proof, evidence, "show me", accusations of God, etc., well, how does one explain something as phenomenal as a complete turn around of your life, a restoring, an absolute knowledge of Him who never leaves us? I could write of the miracles I've seen, I could write of the obvious evidence of the Bible and all the prophesies, the miracle of the Bible itself, but unless a person tastes and sees that it is good, unless the call of the Holy Spirit is responded to...

But that God loved me even as I was sinning, that He came for me, that He showed me a better way, that He does that for everyone that comes to the party...that's what I love about God.

I'm glad that you have found something in your life to give you strength and purpose.

I have not. But unlike you in your early years, I do not feel "empty and wrong".

I hope that you are the type of person who feels empowered by their faith, and shares there experiences with others, but does not judge people who do not believe the same things that you do, or do not act the way you believe they should act.

I hope that you do not tell people that they will go to hell for not believing in god, even though you believe that. I accept your beliefs and do not judge you...and I hope you can accept my belief that the Bible is the world's greatest work of fictional short stories.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.

Thank you.

 

[Bob Noxious]

xotoxi, I think jen means that she was a total loser before with no purpose in life, but that now she's still a total loser but she's managed to find something to delude herself into giving her life meaning.

Is that what's you're looking for as well?

 

[del]

xotoxi, I think jen means that she was a total loser before with no purpose in life, but that now she's still a total loser but she's managed to find something to delude herself into giving her life meaning.

Is that what's you're looking for as well?

hi, al.
you're fooling no one.

 

[Bob Noxious]

My ban should have been lifted yesterday morning, waddup?

 

[del]

My ban should have been lifted yesterday morning, waddup?

it was, but unfortunately multiple accounts aren't allowed. i'm afraid i'll have to ban you.
tough break

 

[xotoxi]

My ban should have been lifted yesterday morning, waddup?

it was, but unfortunately multiple accounts aren't allowed. i'm afraid i'll have to ban you.
tough break

Awwww...that's too bad....

 

[Sunni Man]

The title of the thread should also include Isaac's brother Ishmael.

As he was 1/2 of the orginal blessing given to Abraham

Here is post #4 that JenT keeps refering to.

JenT keeps saying that I stated she "Had" to include Ishmael along with Isaac and the others.

If you read the sentence. I only stated that she "should" include Ishmael with the others.

Big difference.

I was only giving a suggestion and not demanding anything as she infers.


But in JenT's paranoid mind. This was some kind of personal attack against her, christianity, and somehow our public education system.

Then she started talking about headlines written in blood and slaughtering people


JenT you "need" to get a grip on reality!!!


Do they have casting out of demons at your church JenT?

If so, you should get in line for the next exorcism

 

[Al Gunn.]

Ya get a grip jen, you should believe that your prophet is a towelhead who married and banged a 9 year old. tha makes so much more sense, not to forget realistic!!!!!

 

[Bfgrn]

Hey Jen...a couple questions...

How many Gods are there?

Why does the Bible say God supports abortion? Numbers 5:11-31

 

[Sunni Man]

Numbers 5:11-31 doesn't say that the woman was pregnant

It just describes a test and possible punishment for alleged adultry.

 

[JenT]

Hey Jen...a couple questions...

How many Gods are there?

If you're asking me to explain the Trinity, that's a mystery I'm satisfied to wait to ask God Himself.

Why does the Bible say God supports abortion? Numbers 5:11-31

BF! Apparently God provided a way for men to know for a fact if their wives had cheated on them and at the same time the answer to Kathy Smith's workout video. What are you trying to make out of that? It is NOT abortion!

God does not support abortion.

 

[JenT]

The title of the thread should also include Isaac's brother Ishmael.

As he was 1/2 of the orginal blessing given to Abraham

Here is post #4 that JenT keeps refering to.

JenT keeps saying that I stated she "Had" to include Ishmael along with Isaac and the others.

If you read the sentence. I only stated that she "should" include Ishmael with the others.

Big difference.
I was only giving a suggestion and not demanding anything as she infers.

LOLOLOLOLOL the post that *I* keep referring to? Did I ever bring it up without your first trying to play the victim by accusing me of attacking?

And if I was in Saudi Arabia (or any majority Muslim nation) and a man told me what I should and shouldn't do...

But in JenT's paranoid mind. This was some kind of personal attack against her, christianity, and somehow our public education system.

nah, I just see a Muslim man saying a Christian woman should include Ishmael in her religious beliefs and after she posts the Scripture showing that's not Biblical (picturing this in a Muslim dominant nation...how long would I live correcting a Muslim with the Bible...) he then accuses her of attacking him.

Now I'm paranoid? Don't I have to be afraid first?

Then she started talking about headlines written in blood and slaughtering people

JenT you "need" to get a grip on reality!!!

oh I'm sorry, all the news reports...Christians slaughtered over a beauty pageant...I must have imagined all that, my bad

Do they have casting out of demons at your church JenT?

unfortunately, no.

If so, you should get in line for the next exorcism

so now you're accusing me of being demon possessed? How very respectful of you. And concerned for my welfare. All because I posted Biblical quotes explaining why I don't have to include your beliefs in my own.

 

[JenT]

del, I'm brand new here and am trying to obey the rules. Please let me know if I'm crossing any lines, hope not. Thanks

 

[Bootneck]

Allah akbar! Allah akbar!......He sure is:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsjM45SiRTs]YouTube - exploding terrorist[/ame]​