What does America stand for? and what makes an American Patriot?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by frigidweirdo, Oct 1, 2017.

  1. frigidweirdo
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    frigidweirdo Gold Member

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    The problem is that the Founders made a Federal Govt. This is the collective.

    You have to remember that there were Federalists and anti-Federalists, and the former were more likely to want communal solutions to problems. Yes, they wanted to promote the individual too, but not at the expense of no community action.
     
  2. ShaklesOfBigGov
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    ShaklesOfBigGov Restore the Republic

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    During the time of the colonial states, there was. need for a nationali form of government to oversee the interests of all. The European nations each have a nationalized form of government to oversee their territory of an entire nation, however that’s not what the Founders settles with in drafting the United States Constitution. Alexander Hamilton believed and wrote in the Federalist papers a Federalism
    hierarchical system of two governments sharing the same geographical area. “If their [the peoples'] rights are invaded by either, they can make use of the other as the instrument of redress,” led the way to establishing a system derived on the sharing of powers between the U.S. federal government and the individual state governments. Article I Section 8 outlines the powers, responsibilities, and limitations of the Federal Government. Article X outlines the allowances and responsibilities given to the states. Under these provisions the federal government has the ability to coin currency (not allowed to the individual states under Article X), the provision and funding of the narion’s military, to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States; to establish Post Offices and POST Roads, to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries (no mention of funding education), as well as the commerce clause which surrounds the sale and services that are to be conducted BETWEEN THE STATES. Likewise the states are given responsibilities for their allotted territories under Article X. state governments have the power to regulate issues of local concern, such as drivers’ licenses, public school policy, and levy taxes in support of the individual state’s needs.

    A federal welfare system is not a role given to the United States Government, neither is national Health Care nor Federal infrustraucture (which the states are given to maintain within their respective territory). The idea that the Federal Government NEEDS to perform the duty of providing for the collective good, as we have from among the European countries, are what we would find under a “national government” system that’s not the desire nor intent of the Founders in establishing the Constitution to govern our nation.

    What progressives seek, in greater Federal government power overseeing the collective whole is a national system dictating its role over the boundary of a nation, NOT one that’s a dual government divided system of State and Federal roles clearly specified under the United States Constitution.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  3. Tehon
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    Tehon Gold Member

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    Indeed. How unfortunate for you that the constitution gives congress the authority to collect taxes for the purpose of providing for the general welfare of the country.

    Section. 8.
    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
     
  4. ShaklesOfBigGov
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    ShaklesOfBigGov Restore the Republic

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    There is nothing in the Constitution that gives the Federal Government the role to provide welfare, but it’s interesting how we have a “commerce clause” that provides the structure for promoting goods and services between the states . Promoting the general welfare, and providing a welfare system and Health Care, are two totally different things.

    Again, Hamilton (the quote you overlooked) believed in a two government system so
    If their [the peoples'] rights are invaded by EITHER (that means Federal or State Government by the way), they can make use of the other as the instrument of redress,”

    A government system that sees the collective needs of all within its countries boundary, as opposed to the need of a State / Federal hierarchical government, is known as a national system of government NOT the Constitutional system our Founders established.

    Understand the difference.
     
  5. Tehon
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    Tehon Gold Member

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    I'm sympathetic to your beliefs.

    Jefferson spelled out your position quite well in his objection to the creation of the First National Bank. Interestingly enough he lost the debate to Hamilton who got his bank, however short lived.
     
  6. frigidweirdo
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    frigidweirdo Gold Member

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    I understand what happened 200 odd years ago. But things have changed massively. They didn't want the Presidential elections turning into a popularity contest, it's a popularity contest, they didn't want a lot of things that are. The problem is that in 200 years the system has become outdated and the US needs to decide which way it wants to actually go and decide the best way of getting there, or see it encumbered with a system that is weighing the US down massively.
     
  7. frigidweirdo
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    frigidweirdo Gold Member

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    You think there's a difference. The problem is that the Constitution can be interpreted, especially when it's so vague.

    "general welfare" is as vague as it comes. The federal govt has the power to raise taxes for the general welfare, if they have the taxing power they can also assume they have the legislative power to make laws based on welfare too.
     
  8. John Shaw
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    John Shaw VIP Member

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    The IDEA of America used to be about this, at its very core; that everyone have a fair chance to get what they want out of life.

    Of course, we never lived up to that idea. And I don't think we ever will.
     
  9. ShaklesOfBigGov
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    ShaklesOfBigGov Restore the Republic

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    If you want to change the Constitution and how things are done, there is an amendment process that’s clearly outlined to change it. I happen to think social security is outdated from how it was originally funded and intended, I’m sure you don’t want a debate to see which way that plan ought to go. We have a clear Constitutional process to make changes, you just don’t change the rules simply because you don’t like how the system was set up by the orchestrators who wrote the United States Constitution.
     
  10. ShaklesOfBigGov
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    ShaklesOfBigGov Restore the Republic

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    The clear list of how the federal government would handle the military, coin money, the handling of bankruptcies, and with regards to the post office which wasn’t vague. The commerce clause was there to articulate how services would be handled between the states. They also made clear what the duty of the federal government would be in compassion to what responsibilities was expected of the state.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017

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