Welfare

[hortysir]

Name a charity that could do it better.

Explain to us what happens when a man loses his job, can't provide for his family and gets no help. What would he do?

Move in with family.
There's help available

Laughable.

You all claim people should go to charities and yet none of you can name one that could provide the level of help the U.S. Government does.

If we build it, they will come

 

[Ernie S.]

Fact is welfare has failed on every measurable level to produce the results it claimed it would have. There really is no debate to be had. Subsidize what you want more of, if you want more poor people then give more welfare, what do ya know, we subsidized the problem (poor people) and now we are bankrupted with record amounts of poor.

Part of that is that we keep raising the poverty level. People living on welfare should be fucking POOR. They should not be driving a late model car, carrying an IPhone or watching a 60" plasma TV. They should not be waddling about 2 or 300 pounds overweight. They should be hungry! Their kids should be a bit hungry and their parents should actually care that they are.
You don't make poverty go away by making it comfortable.
Our poverty class is better off than 80% of the world's population. You want to see poverty? Go to Jamaica, Rio de Janeiro, Havana, Beijing, Nairobi or Manilla and cry to me about poverty.

 

[DontBeStupid]

Move in with family.
There's help available

Laughable.

You all claim people should go to charities and yet none of you can name one that could provide the level of help the U.S. Government does.

If we build it, they will come

Except. What you're saying is, if they come, someone will probably build it.

 

[Paulie]

We could pay for prisons or food stamps and all things being equal, I choose food stamps.

This right here is where you thinking is seriously flawed. You see it in black or white. Either we throw people a bone or they starve and riot.

You don't see it from the perspective that it's a mindset at this point and beyond just the economics of it, there's a whole attitude that needs to be adjusted because there are people that are literally jumping into the system simply because it's easier than working.

And there will ALWAYS be people who jump in to a system if they think they can game the system. To get rid of the system simply to go after those people is naive and petty and amazing short sighted.

You and I obviously would disagree on how many of them there are then.

 

[hortysir]

Is government-run welfare really necessary?

There is a common misconception as to what constitutes ‘welfare’ or those receiving public assistance.

For the most part citizens receiving public assistance are the elderly, disabled, and children. Still more receive assistance as low-income working families. Those not employed are required to job search, perform community service, or be enrolled in a training program as a condition of on-going eligibility.

Public assistance is necessary as a temporary benefit for families where a job loss occurs through no fault of the working adult or adults, such as a layoff, injury, or illness.

Can private charities do a better job of taking care of the less fortunate?

No. Private, non-profit entities lack the resources or policy knowledge necessary to administer state and federal programs adequately. In situations where a non-profit does administer a government program, such as Goodwill Industries with regard to job placement and training, those services can only be provided with comprehensive Federal funding.

Is it better to give a man a fish to hold him over until he can afford steak, or to teach him how to fish?

The problem is that although most public assistance programs require and provide education and training designed to get people off of public assistance and become self-sufficient, such as the Workforce Investment Act (‘WIA’), many of these programs are under-funded or not funded at all.

Often this is the result of budget restraints realized by state and local governments, sometimes this is the consequence of politicians hostile to these programs for partisan reasons.

But the laws, policies, and programs are in place designed to retrain displaced workers and return them to the workforce – that these programs aren’t being utilized is not the fault of those receiving public assistance, but the fault of politicians and voters unwilling to fund and support them.

So Big Government is the know-all and end-all for all that ails it's constituents.


There was some discussion, further back, about the 'shame factor'.

One needs only to log in, fill out a form, and get a check from a nameless and faceless entity.

Require them to personally show up, to a live person, with their hand out and wait and see how long that continues

 

[Ernie S.]

Name a charity that could do it better.

Explain to us what happens when a man loses his job, can't provide for his family and gets no help. What would he do?

Move in with family.
There's help available

Laughable.

You all claim people should go to charities and yet none of you can name one that could provide the level of help the U.S. Government does.

Who says it needs to be one charity? Why not let the Catholic Church handle it in Boston, A Synagogue handle Brooklyn and the VFW handle Lexington? Small local charities are more efficient and know better what people need in their areas.

 

[DontBeStupid]

This right here is where you thinking is seriously flawed. You see it in black or white. Either we throw people a bone or they starve and riot.

You don't see it from the perspective that it's a mindset at this point and beyond just the economics of it, there's a whole attitude that needs to be adjusted because there are people that are literally jumping into the system simply because it's easier than working.

And there will ALWAYS be people who jump in to a system if they think they can game the system. To get rid of the system simply to go after those people is naive and petty and amazing short sighted.

You and I obviously would disagree on how many of them there are then.

Yup. I think it's something less than all, and you seem to disagree.

 

[hortysir]

Laughable.

You all claim people should go to charities and yet none of you can name one that could provide the level of help the U.S. Government does.

If we build it, they will come

Except. What you're saying is, if they come, someone will probably build it.

Actually....what I'm saying is there is already numerous private charities out there and people should go there FIRST, rather than the government.

When these private charities start seeing an increase they will, in turn, drive for more donations....thus drawing more attention....etc, etc, etc....

 

[Paulie]

Move in with family.
There's help available

Laughable.

You all claim people should go to charities and yet none of you can name one that could provide the level of help the U.S. Government does.

Who says it needs to be one charity? Why not let the Catholic Church handle it in Boston, A Synagogue handle Brooklyn and the VFW handle Lexington? Small local charities are more efficient and know better what people need in their areas.

Why would you expect a liberal federalist to understand that though? A DC bureaucracy is sufficient in their minds, so obviously the private sector would be expected to have one organization handling the country's needs.

 

[DontBeStupid]

If we build it, they will come

Except. What you're saying is, if they come, someone will probably build it.

Actually....what I'm saying is there is already numerous private charities out there and people should go there FIRST, rather than the government.

When these private charities start seeing an increase they will, in turn, drive for more donations....thus drawing more attention....etc, etc, etc....

Faith based economics.

heh heh funny.

 

[Paulie]

And there will ALWAYS be people who jump in to a system if they think they can game the system. To get rid of the system simply to go after those people is naive and petty and amazing short sighted.

You and I obviously would disagree on how many of them there are then.

Yup. I think it's something less than all, and you seem to disagree.

No I don't think it's all. I think it's enough that it's a major problem and the good intentions in the beginning have paved the road to hell.

It's broken. It went from helping a very small minority out in desperate need, to becoming something that breeds laziness and mediocrity.

I feel for those that really truly need it and would like to get in and get out as quick as possible, but overall the system has become a cancer.

 

[Ernie S.]

Laughable.

You all claim people should go to charities and yet none of you can name one that could provide the level of help the U.S. Government does.

Who says it needs to be one charity? Why not let the Catholic Church handle it in Boston, A Synagogue handle Brooklyn and the VFW handle Lexington? Small local charities are more efficient and know better what people need in their areas.

Why would you expect a liberal federalist to understand that though? A DC bureaucracy is sufficient in their minds, so obviously the private sector would be expected to have one organization handling the country's needs.

At least the central DC bureaucracy would assure everyone received equal treatment, you know, winter parkas for poor kids in Miami and cool sandals for the poor barefoot kids in Bismark.

 

[hortysir]

Who says it needs to be one charity? Why not let the Catholic Church handle it in Boston, A Synagogue handle Brooklyn and the VFW handle Lexington? Small local charities are more efficient and know better what people need in their areas.

Why would you expect a liberal federalist to understand that though? A DC bureaucracy is sufficient in their minds, so obviously the private sector would be expected to have one organization handling the country's needs.

At least the central DC bureaucracy would assure everyone received equal treatment, you know, winter parkas for poor kids in Miami and cool sandals for the poor barefoot kids in Bismark.

"We're from the government and we're here to help"

 

[Oddball]

Except. What you're saying is, if they come, someone will probably build it.

Actually....what I'm saying is there is already numerous private charities out there and people should go there FIRST, rather than the government.

When these private charities start seeing an increase they will, in turn, drive for more donations....thus drawing more attention....etc, etc, etc....

Faith based economics.

heh heh funny.

Faith based bureaucracy.

hahahahahaha!....Side-splittingly hilarious!

 

[Oddball]

Is government-run welfare really necessary?

There is a common misconception as to what constitutes ‘welfare’ or those receiving public assistance.

For the most part citizens receiving public assistance are the elderly, disabled, and children. Still more receive assistance as low-income working families. Those not employed are required to job search, perform community service, or be enrolled in a training program as a condition of on-going eligibility.

Public assistance is necessary as a temporary benefit for families where a job loss occurs through no fault of the working adult or adults, such as a layoff, injury, or illness.

No. Private, non-profit entities lack the resources or policy knowledge necessary to administer state and federal programs adequately. In situations where a non-profit does administer a government program, such as Goodwill Industries with regard to job placement and training, those services can only be provided with comprehensive Federal funding.

Is it better to give a man a fish to hold him over until he can afford steak, or to teach him how to fish?

The problem is that although most public assistance programs require and provide education and training designed to get people off of public assistance and become self-sufficient, such as the Workforce Investment Act (‘WIA’), many of these programs are under-funded or not funded at all.

Often this is the result of budget restraints realized by state and local governments, sometimes this is the consequence of politicians hostile to these programs for partisan reasons.

But the laws, policies, and programs are in place designed to retrain displaced workers and return them to the workforce – that these programs aren’t being utilized is not the fault of those receiving public assistance, but the fault of politicians and voters unwilling to fund and support them.

So Big Government is the know-all and end-all for all that ails it's constituents.


There was some discussion, further back, about the 'shame factor'.

One needs only to log in, fill out a form, and get a check from a nameless and faceless entity.

Require them to personally show up, to a live person, with their hand out and wait and see how long that continues

He doesn't converse.

He drives by and you bow to his Superior lolberal "logic".

 

[Paulie]

The thing about it though, is that it was doomed to fail even from the get. If humans really are inherently greedy, as the left clings to, then it was a foregone conclusion that they would rape and pillage the system for all it's worth.

 

[Oddball]

The thing about it though, is that it was doomed to fail even from the get. If humans really are inherently greedy, as the left clings to, then it was a foregone conclusion that they would rape and pillage the system for all it's worth.

Yet they always seem to exempt the politicians on their side, bureaucrats and the moocher class that they "help", from such unsavory aspects of human nature.

Makes you wonder, dunnit?

 

[Ernie S.]

Why would you expect a liberal federalist to understand that though? A DC bureaucracy is sufficient in their minds, so obviously the private sector would be expected to have one organization handling the country's needs.

At least the central DC bureaucracy would assure everyone received equal treatment, you know, winter parkas for poor kids in Miami and cool sandals for the poor barefoot kids in Bismark.

"We're from the government and we're here to help"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2Cfg3swvbc]Screaming Eggs - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Paulie]

The thing about it though, is that it was doomed to fail even from the get. If humans really are inherently greedy, as the left clings to, then it was a foregone conclusion that they would rape and pillage the system for all it's worth.

Yet they always seem to exempt the politicians on their side, bureaucrats and the moocher class that they "help", from such unsavory aspects of human nature.

Makes you wonder, dunnit?

Humans are greedy by nature, but apparently only rich upper class citizens are humans

 

[Eaglewings]

I did my internship in a home for addicted pregnant women on the streets. Its a huge organization that has major fund raisers to not only fund the place I worked in but also the homeless food kitchen and men/women's recovery program.
The home I worked in has helped soooo many addicted pregnant women have clean babies when they are born, educate these women and get them on their feet out in working society.
There is noo way this could be done with donations alone.

As others have said yes their are leaches and scum bags who take advantage, which ruin it for the rest.
There should be a way to produce some jobs that actually do go out and check on these people, and if they could work.