Warnings From The Founding Generation

[JBvM]

BF: [ In fine, A Nation well regulated is like a Polypus; take away a Limb, its Place is soon supply'd; cut it in two, and each deficient Part shall speedily grow out of the Part remaining. Thus if you have Room and Subsistence enough, as you may by dividing, make ten Polypes out of one, you may of one make ten Nations, equally populous and powerful; rather, increase a Nation ten fold in Numbers and Strength.

And since Detachments of English from Britain sent to America, will have their Places at Home so soon supply'd and increase so largely here; why should the Palatine Boors be suffered to swarm into our Settlements, and by herding together establish their Language and Manners to the Exclusion f ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion. ]

The man is talking about how the future can look. How a nation founded by the English colonists, and looking to expand, could lose it's English & British ways. Far too many people being the children of later immigrants gloss over or are totally in darkness and ignorance on the founding generation

 

[JBvM]

Your Franklin quote is racism masquerading as patriotism.

There you go again with projection. Ben was not arguing out of patriotism. LOL

What a tool

Our friend the OP was trying for it though.

Ben Franklin even includes his beloved Frenchmen. What is he speaking about? Sure his comments are what we and even he at the time, would call racist. But in what context? Him and others founded this nation. The people he speaks of come in later

 

[Natural Citizen]

Alexander Hamilton warned us about the convulsions and disorders that could weaken or destroy a republic like ours, as a consequences of the acts of popular demagogues and petty despots.

The truth unquestionably is, that the only path to a subversion of the republican system of the Country is, by flattering the prejudices of the people, and exciting their jealousies and apprehensions, to throw affairs into confusion, and bring on civil commotion. Tired at length of anarchy, or want of government, they may take shelter in the arms of monarchy for repose and security.

When a man unprincipled in private life desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper, possessed of considerable talents, having the advantage of military habits - despotic in his ordinary demeanour - known to have scoffed in private at the principles of liberty - when such a man is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity - to join in the cry of danger to liberty - to take every opportunity of embarrassing the General Government & bringing it under suspicion - to flatter and fall in with all the non sense of the zealots of the day - It may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may “ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.”

It has aptly been observed that Cato was the Tory-Cæsar the whig of his day. The former frequently resisted - the latter always flattered the follies of the people. Yet the former perished with the Republic the latter destroyed it.

No popular Government was ever without its Catalines & its Cæsars. These are its true enemies.
​

Then there was Wise Old Doctor Franklin warning that

in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted ... Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.​

He was talking about the insufficiency of the Confederation to preserve the Union.

 

[Natural Citizen]

op's source - Paste Magazine

"...But then we saw this tweet, and, well…"

 

[JBvM]

He was talking about the insufficiency of the Confederation to preserve the Union.

Really? Do you know this for a fact? Oops! STRIKE THAT! Sorry. thought this was regarding Franklin. My error

 

[Natural Citizen]

Really? Do you know this for a fact?

Yes.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Bunch of radicals arguing like Repubs and Dems today.. Or dissing "populists".. Probably BEFORE the word populist was ever invented.

I have a collection of Founder "instructions" about political parties. They really worried about a 2 party system locked in a death match. It's the REAL tyranny the founders warned about. And it's come to pass.

Welcome to USMB btw. Seems like you're a "keeper".. Unless you go full zealot on us shortly..

Well, your credibility is shot.

 

[JBvM]

Alexander Hamilton warned us about the convulsions and disorders that could weaken or destroy a republic like ours, as a consequences of the acts of popular demagogues and petty despots.

The truth unquestionably is, that the only path to a subversion of the republican system of the Country is, by flattering the prejudices of the people, and exciting their jealousies and apprehensions, to throw affairs into confusion, and bring on civil commotion. Tired at length of anarchy, or want of government, they may take shelter in the arms of monarchy for repose and security.

When a man unprincipled in private life desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper, possessed of considerable talents, having the advantage of military habits - despotic in his ordinary demeanour - known to have scoffed in private at the principles of liberty - when such a man is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity - to join in the cry of danger to liberty - to take every opportunity of embarrassing the General Government & bringing it under suspicion - to flatter and fall in with all the non sense of the zealots of the day - It may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may “ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.”

It has aptly been observed that Cato was the Tory-Cæsar the whig of his day. The former frequently resisted - the latter always flattered the follies of the people. Yet the former perished with the Republic the latter destroyed it.

No popular Government was ever without its Catalines & its Cæsars. These are its true enemies.
​

Then there was Wise Old Doctor Franklin warning that

in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted ... Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.​

He was talking about the insufficiency of the Confederation to preserve the Union.

His comments about people and despots are not particular to the Confederation. They apply everywhere as principles and observations of humankind. He may have used the arguments in that narrow context, but in a full context his comments and arguments apply much more broadly to structures of government

 

[JBvM]

[QUOTE="Natural Citizen, post: 20097960, member: 58613"

He was talking about the insufficiency of the Confederation to preserve the Union.

Really? Do you know this for a fact?

Yes.[/QUOTE]
as I said, please don't ignore it .. I apologized thinking it was about Franklin. Lest you prove yourself to be dishonest and disingenuous

 

[JBvM]

Well, your credibility is shot.

You may say that to him in reference to me, but can you show up outside the peanut gallery, where you hit and run with a comment and stand back and admire yourself in some delusional episodic fit of whatever it is you get high on?

 

[JBvM]

op's source - Paste Magazine

"...But then we saw this tweet, and, well…"

you are wrong here

 

[Natural Citizen]

you are wrong here

No, I'm not.

Find a better hobby.

 

[JBvM]

you are wrong here

No, I'm not.

Find a better hobby.

That was not a source I used or got anything from. Sorry, you're wrong and full of yourself for no reasons at all

 

[JBvM]

He was talking about the insufficiency of the Confederation to preserve the Union.

Now your own link states that the quote "comes from a letter in which he was lashing out at the demagogues and defending himself against charges that he was working to reinstitute a monarchy." This in 1792.

He is "talking about the insufficiency of the Confederation to preserve the Union" in defense of himself and the Administration. The quote(s) I used are arguments about the monarchy bs, and NOT the failure or weakness of the Confederation.

[ Enclosure: [Objections and Answers Respecting the Administration], [18 August 1792]
[enclosure] Objections and Answers respecting the Administration of the Government

Objection XIV   The ultimate object of all

To this there is no other answer than a flat denial—except this that the project from its absurdity refutes itself. ]

[ ​

The idea of introducing a monarchy or aristocracy into this Country, by employing the influence and force of a Government continually changing hands, towards it, is one of those visionary things, that none but madmen could meditate and that no wise men will believe.

If it could be done at all, which is utterly incredible, it would require a long series of time, certainly beyond the life of any individual to effect it. Who then would enter into such plot? For what purpose of interest or ambition?

To hope that the people may be cajoled into giving their sanctions to such institutions is still more chimerical. A people so enlightened and so diversified as the people of this Country can surely never be brought to it, but from convulsions and disorders, in consequence of the acts of popular demagogues.

]

founders.archives[.]gov/documents/Hamilton/01-12-02-0184-0002​

 

[Natural Citizen]

He was talking about the insufficiency of the Confederation to preserve the Union.

Now your own link states that the quote "comes from a letter in which he was lashing out at the demagogues and defending himself against charges that he was working to reinstitute a monarchy." This in 1792.

He is "talking about the insufficiency of the Confederation to preserve the Union" in defense of himself and the Administration. The quote(s) I used are arguments about the monarchy bs, and NOT the failure or weakness of the Confederation.

[ Enclosure: [Objections and Answers Respecting the Administration], [18 August 1792]
[enclosure] Objections and Answers respecting the Administration of the Government

Objection XIV   The ultimate object of all

To this there is no other answer than a flat denial—except this that the project from its absurdity refutes itself. ]

[ ​

The idea of introducing a monarchy or aristocracy into this Country, by employing the influence and force of a Government continually changing hands, towards it, is one of those visionary things, that none but madmen could meditate and that no wise men will believe.

If it could be done at all, which is utterly incredible, it would require a long series of time, certainly beyond the life of any individual to effect it. Who then would enter into such plot? For what purpose of interest or ambition?

To hope that the people may be cajoled into giving their sanctions to such institutions is still more chimerical. A people so enlightened and so diversified as the people of this Country can surely never be brought to it, but from convulsions and disorders, in consequence of the acts of popular demagogues.

]

founders.archives[.]gov/documents/Hamilton/01-12-02-0184-0002​

The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[whitehall]

When FDR nominated a former KKK member to the Supreme Court, Justice Black was apparently influenced by bigotry against the Papists who were establishing schools throughout the Country in the 40's. Black rewrote the Constitution around 1948 claiming that there was a Constitutional "separation of church and state" that did not appear anywhere in the Constitution. The church and state issue was later expanded to outlaw Christmas trees on public property and later to demolish a Korean War monument that contained a 40 ft Cross. Clearly the 1st Amendment freedom of religion is under assault. President Obama authorized a bill ironically called the "fairness doctrine" that would have forced (at gunpoint?) talk radio to broadcast left wing propaganda. The bill never had legs but it is a symbol of the assault on another 1st Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech.

OMG! You believe you can use Justice Black in this way? LOL let me open up one of the books I have by my side. be right back little fella

Open one of the books? While you are at it look up the part where Justice Black paid back FDR for nominating him by issuing the majority opinion that justified incarcerating American citizens without due process. My point is that Hamilton would agree that the United States Constitution was the greatest document ever written and is still viable today even though pop-culture educated lefties whine about the injustice of losing a freaking election.

 

[Natural Citizen]

One thing is certain, the establishment does have a love for Hamilton.

But there are more relevant and more practical ways to go about making the point.

 

[JBvM]

The two are not mutually exclusive.

That makes absolutely no sense given the context here.

 

[Natural Citizen]

The two are not mutually exclusive.

That makes absolutely no sense given the context here.

The context was wrong in the first place. From the very beginning of the op.

 

[JBvM]

One thing is certain, the establishment does have a love for Hamilton.

But there are more relevant and more practical ways to go about making the point.

When you say 'the establishment' it is open to interpretation, which makes it meaningless in far too many ways to get into here.May as well parrot Trump and say "Some people are saying"

And yes I agree "there are more relevant and more practical ways to go about making the point." as there is with making most points.