Want to see some REAL class warfare?

[FA_Q2]

That case is only one example of a systemic problem that pervades the entire criminal justice system.

Hell, I didn't even mention the fact that rich people can afford better legal counsel. After all, do you think O J Simpson would have gotten away with murder in the 90's without his 'dream team'?

I am sorry for this news to you but this has been the case since...well, mankind got 'organized'. Who wrote "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others," and when did he write it?

justice is sometimes a matter of simply, what you can afford. It has always been so.

I think you're missing the entire point. The founding fathers understood that there would be inequality. And as is often said, they weren't trying to make everyone equal. However, they DID strive to make everyone equal under the law.

The purpose of this thread is two-fold.

First, it's to dismiss the orchestrated idea that the wealthy in this country are somehow 'victims' of class warfare when talk is floated of raising their taxes to help tackle the deficit and debt at the very same time that massive cuts are on the horizon to tackle the same deficit and debt.

Secondly, it's to show that the REAL class warfare that exists in this country in the criminal justice system actually works in FAVOR of the wealthy and well-connected at the expense of the poor and the middle class.

Our country is supposed to be a nation of laws and not men, right? Then why is it that our political and financial elites get pardons for their crimes or their crimes aren't even investigated when a country like France doesn't have a problem putting THEIR former president on trial for corruption?

If our collective ideals are to have any real meaning at all, then we have to practice what we preach to others, and it's clear that we as a nation are not doing that.

When Ford pardoned Nixon, I think everyone believed (or at least hoped) that Nixon's pardon was a one time exception. Unfortunately, all it seemed to do is set a precedent for future pardons.

What is ALSO unfortunate, is that while our justice system has become ever more lenient toward the rich and powerful, it's has also become increasingly merciless to the poor and the middle class because as I noted in the OP, the US has 12.5 times as many people in prison today as we had in prison 40 years ago. And our population hasn't increased by over a factor of 10 in the last two generations.

That is the state of class warfare in our society. The rich aren't victims; they're beneficiaries in every sense of the definition.

I don't think that the wealthy are 'victims' of class warfare and I don't think that was ever the intent on using that phrase. It is the poor that are victimized by politicians that pit them against the rich. The rich are not going to notice the 5 percent that is taken from them in the name of the poor but in reality, nether are the poor going to notice it given to them. It creates a death spiral of take more and more without really noticing that they are getting nowhere and accomplishing nothing. The rich are never going to be the victim but the poor are being exploited by the politicians to take the ire from them and move it to a source of income for them to spend.

As far as uneven legal representation, that is a big deal and I am not sure how to further mitigate the problem. If people were really outraged by this it would change on its own but the fact is that people in general are apathetic morons and simply do not care.


Look at the pass people gave Polanski. Even HERE people were making arguments for him. Somehow, people see famous different than the normal guy.

 

[FA_Q2]

I still haven't heard any suggestions for a better system.

A better jury set for starters and possibly a blind DA. One that makes the decition to hear a case without names involved or any other information other than the facts uncovered so far. That would be hard to do though.

Heh, they would have to serve a year in a closed bunker just to get away from the news reports but hey, the military already does that and they would not even be shot at

 

[spectrumc01]

My favorite stories are the ones where public officials, or secretaries embezzle thousands and into the hundreds of thousands. When caught, they get probation and restitution and /or maybe a year in the county. Steel something from Wal Mart and see what happens. you might as well have killed someone, they are throwing the book at you.

 

[Flopper]

Nope, and i believe that Goldman Sachs' upper managers need to be put up against the wall. But that doesn't negate the advantages that capitalism bestows upon those who choose to work hard. The problem with your little socialist utopia is it can't ever work because people are lazy. When laziness becomes systemic the country fails. Terror will keep the slaves putting out for awhile but eventually they become numb to it.

Just look at that socialist utopia the USSR. They failed and had to embrace capitalism to survive. If you were smart you'd read up on that.

There are a lot of reasons for the failure of the USSR. At the top of the list has to be tight government control of production and distribution of goods and services. However, going to other end of the economic scale, unfettered capitalism is also doomed to failure. We have see the disastrous results in countries such Haiti and other 3rd world countries. With American style regulated capitalism we benefit from social services yet still providing the financial incentive to excel.

Here we are in agreement. I believe government should be just large enough to do its job. When it gets too large is when corruption begins to become systemic. The USSR had a massive bureaucracy, corruption was everywhere, and there was no motivation to do well because if you did you got sent to the Gulag by overlords who were incompetent.

The US is heading down that road now, and I do agree unfettered capitalism is just as doomed to fail as socialism. Laws need to be enacted that severly punish any who game the system for personal gain. Politicians and capitalists alike. We have not enjoyed a free market in over a hundred years and that needs to stop.

As the economy expands, we won't have the expenses of the stimulus packages, bailouts, unemployment benefit extensions, and payroll tax reductions. That coupled with cost savings from getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan should certainly make a dent in the deficit. Once we get the GDP expanding at 3% or more, we should do an across the board cut of 10% spread over 5 years. That will cut over 300 billion out of the deficit. I would also revamp the tax code cutting corporate taxes and raising income taxes in all income groups to produce another 200 billion in revenue. That would wipe out most of the deficit and preserve all government functions but with a slight reduction is size.

 

[Mustang]

Pols get to walk all the time.

krist just look at the record of anyone in Congress.

I'd bet at least 75 percent should be in jail.

As wrong as this is, please recall, Kennedy killed a woman and obama executed a citizen w/o a trial.

And no one said or will say shit about it.

The biggest individual test any country can face when it comes to the concept of being a nation of laws, not men, is what happens when the most powerful man/person in the country breaks the laws.

France, a country that conservatives routinely mock, passed that test with flying colors recently when the tried, and convicted former president, Jacque Chirac.

French ex-president Chirac convicted of corruption - The Washington Post

Good for them. This is also a deterrent to criminal conduct of future French leaders because they can see what happened to Chirac.

How is it that the French can rise to the ocassion which America has failed to achieve. After all, how many times have I heard about "American exceptionalism." Or is that term really meant to convey that certain Americans, because of their power, have become an "exception" to the very rules and laws that the rest of us would be slappped down hard if we broke those self same rules/laws.

When Nixon was pardoned (before any verdict, or trial, or charges were filed), we were told that it was to spare the rest of us from the ordeal of a long trial. Really? Americans couldn't handle that? Americans couldn't handle what the French could handle?

Ford told us that our long national nightmare was over. Unfortunately, in retrospect, it looks like it was just beginnning because subsequent administrations have pardoned several former administration officials instead of prosecuting them for their crimes. What kind of message does that send to future administrations and average American citizens in general? Whatever the message is, it's certainly not the same as the message French leaders and their citizens have gotten.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Unfortunately the corruption in government is so deeply imbedded it will take a revolution to rip it out.

Why?

We have constitutional system in place to deal with it. We merely need to abide by the constitution as written.

But the new rulers are tactful enough at their game to maintain sufficient balance in wealth and privilege distribution within the lower class that the spark of revolution remains too cool to start the necesary fire.

Revolutions are generally a means of one powerful group robbing another powerful group whilst using the commoners as pawns to achieve their malicious aims. The ignorant masses are manipulated by those who claim their enemy is "ungodly" or "rich."

There is at least one Tory for every four or five prospective revolutionaries. And a lot of those Tories participate right here in this forum.

This isn't 1776, and what you seek is more closely aligned to 1917 Russia.

Also, the Indefinite Detention bill presently being floored will, if passed, effectively eliminate Due Process and Habeas Corpus.

Meaning that it will not survive a judicial test.

And while Obama had promised to veto the bill he recently withdrew that promise. (I am now totally disgusted with that phony sonofabitch.)

Of course he withdrew it, such a bill gives him the power to arrest political enemies.

But as I said, we do have a constitution which will not allow this to stand, UNLESS people like you are successful in subduing the constitution.

The bill will enable the military to detain for an indefinite period, without formal charges or an arraignment hearing, anyone suspected of "terrorism," whatever that means. Based on what we've already seen it's not hard to foresee it being applied to something like publicly saying, "I'm fed up with this goddam government and I think we need to do something to change it!"

That's why elections are held every 4 years. That you hold party above nation, and keep electing the guy with a "D" after his name, regardless of his actions, is no one's fault but yours.

"Terrorism."

Do you consider vowing to vote against Dear Leader to be an act of terrorism?

 

[Mustang]

My favorite stories are the ones where public officials, or secretaries embezzle thousands and into the hundreds of thousands. When caught, they get probation and restitution and /or maybe a year in the county. Steel something from Wal Mart and see what happens. you might as well have killed someone, they are throwing the book at you.

Yeah, maybe somebody who steals a $25 item from Walmart might try the Martin Erzinger defense which I mentioned in the OP. Simply say that a conviction would hurt your career or future prospects of employment.

In Erzinger's case, the plea deal was actually proffered by Eagle County District Attorney Mark Hurlbert. Although Erzinger committed two felonies, no felony charges were filed, Instead, Erzinger pled guilty to 2 misdemeanors and was sentenced to a year’s probation and a suspended jail term after a Colorado judge accepted the controversial plea bargain in the case of a cyclist who was the victim of a hit-and-run last July. Hurlbert said that a felony conviction would hurt Erzinger's career.

 

[jgarden]

For the record: there is no 'class' in the United States of America. It is not a class based society. 'Class warfare' is what politicians use to divide Americans from each other - because that makes it easier for them to rob us all.

Only fucking morons support Democrats or Republicans. You people are the problem.

Drive through any American village/town/city and it becomes readily apparent that there is a wide disparity between the "haves" and "have nots" in a society that "California Girl" would have us believe "is not a class based society."

How does "California Girl" reconcile her assertion that we live in a "classless" society, when almost half of all members of the 2011 US Congress are millionaires (249 of 535 members) - members of the 1%?

 

[FA_Q2]

For the record: there is no 'class' in the United States of America. It is not a class based society. 'Class warfare' is what politicians use to divide Americans from each other - because that makes it easier for them to rob us all.

Only fucking morons support Democrats or Republicans. You people are the problem.

Drive through any American village/town/city and it becomes readily apparent that there is a wide disparity between the "haves" and "have nots" in a society that "California Girl" would have us believe "is not a class based society."

How does "California Girl" reconcile her assertion that we live in a "classless" society, when almost half of all members of the 2011 US Congress are millionaires (249 of 535 members) - members of the 1%?

Likely because they are not there simply because of or as a function of 'class' or your artificial line of 'the 1%.' Many of them got their millions because they were in office to begin with. You can become one of the 1%. In a class based society, you cannot do that.

Also, would you prefer that some of our representatives were poor? How would that improve things? You fail to understand that success is a GOOD thing to have in someone that has a say in the legalities of your life not to mention the extent that your rights are protected.

 

[Mustang]

For the record: there is no 'class' in the United States of America. It is not a class based society. 'Class warfare' is what politicians use to divide Americans from each other - because that makes it easier for them to rob us all.

Only fucking morons support Democrats or Republicans. You people are the problem.

Drive through any American village/town/city and it becomes readily apparent that there is a wide disparity between the "haves" and "have nots" in a society that "California Girl" would have us believe "is not a class based society."

How does "California Girl" reconcile her assertion that we live in a "classless" society, when almost half of all members of the 2011 US Congress are millionaires (249 of 535 members) - members of the 1%?

Likely because they are not there simply because of or as a function of 'class' or your artificial line of 'the 1%.' Many of them got their millions because they were in office to begin with. You can become one of the 1%. In a class based society, you cannot do that.

Also, would you prefer that some of our representatives were poor? How would that improve things? You fail to understand that success is a GOOD thing to have in someone that has a say in the legalities of your life not to mention the extent that your rights are protected.

It depends on what differentiates or defines the upper class as opposed to the lower classes in a particular society. In some countries, a very good education (as in being a university professor with advanced degrees) is seen as upper class. However, in our capitalist country, money is what differentiates the classes. So, a person in this country with less education (and even with very little education) can, and sometimes/often does make more money than someone with a PhD.

And in THIS country, wealth is a greater determinant of being considered a member of the upper class, than is education.

 

[georgephillip]

"In a recent Pew Foundation poll, 77 percent of respondents said too much power is in the hands of a few rich people and corporations..."

"If you run a giant bank that defrauds millions of small investors of their life savings, the bank might pay a small fine but you won’t go to prison. Not a single top Wall Street executive has been prosecuted for Wall Street’s mega-fraud. But if you sell an ounce of marijuana you could be put away for a long time."

Financial "success" isn't a good thing if it comes from Wall Street speculation or if you obtain it by accepting bribes from speculators. A wall between private wealth and the state is long overdue; however, I doubt elected Republicans OR Democrats would agree.

Robert Reich

 

[gallantwarrior]

My favorite stories are the ones where public officials, or secretaries embezzle thousands and into the hundreds of thousands. When caught, they get probation and restitution and /or maybe a year in the county. Steel something from Wal Mart and see what happens. you might as well have killed someone, they are throwing the book at you.

Yeah, maybe somebody who steals a $25 item from Walmart might try the Martin Erzinger defense which I mentioned in the OP. Simply say that a conviction would hurt your career or future prospects of employment.

In Erzinger's case, the plea deal was actually proffered by Eagle County District Attorney Mark Hurlbert. Although Erzinger committed two felonies, no felony charges were filed, Instead, Erzinger pled guilty to 2 misdemeanors and was sentenced to a year’s probation and a suspended jail term after a Colorado judge accepted the controversial plea bargain in the case of a cyclist who was the victim of a hit-and-run last July. Hurlbert said that a felony conviction would hurt Erzinger's career.

Next time I piss "hot", I'll try that defense.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Want to see some REAL class warfare?

It's easy!!!

Turn to.....

FAUX Noise!!!!!!

​

 

[Mustang]

"In a recent Pew Foundation poll, 77 percent of respondents said too much power is in the hands of a few rich people and corporations..."

"If you run a giant bank that defrauds millions of small investors of their life savings, the bank might pay a small fine but you won’t go to prison. Not a single top Wall Street executive has been prosecuted for Wall Street’s mega-fraud. But if you sell an ounce of marijuana you could be put away for a long time."

Financial "success" isn't a good thing if it comes from Wall Street speculation or if you obtain it by accepting bribes from speculators. A wall between private wealth and the state is long overdue; however, I doubt elected Republicans OR Democrats would agree.

Robert Reich

In the last three decades or so, income inequality has been growing. While wages are being driven down for a number of reasons, corporate executives are taking ever larger pay and benefit packages, even when they drive their respective companies into the ditch.

Now, here's a question that I would like someone to seriously try to answer: Why is it that TALKING about income inequality qualifies as class warfare against the rich, but income inequality, itself, isn't considered class warfare against the poor and middle classes?

 

[Katzndogz]

Here's what class warfare looks like!

Air Jordan shoes cause riots around nation | The Desert Sun | MyDesert.com

The poor fighting over a chance to spend $180.00 on a pair of sneakers. How poor can they BE?

 

[georgephillip]

"In a recent Pew Foundation poll, 77 percent of respondents said too much power is in the hands of a few rich people and corporations..."

"If you run a giant bank that defrauds millions of small investors of their life savings, the bank might pay a small fine but you won’t go to prison. Not a single top Wall Street executive has been prosecuted for Wall Street’s mega-fraud. But if you sell an ounce of marijuana you could be put away for a long time."

Financial "success" isn't a good thing if it comes from Wall Street speculation or if you obtain it by accepting bribes from speculators. A wall between private wealth and the state is long overdue; however, I doubt elected Republicans OR Democrats would agree.

Robert Reich

In the last three decades or so, income inequality has been growing. While wages are being driven down for a number of reasons, corporate executives are taking ever larger pay and benefit packages, even when they drive their respective companies into the ditch.

Now, here's a question that I would like someone to seriously try to answer: Why is it that TALKING about income inequality qualifies as class warfare against the rich, but income inequality, itself, isn't considered class warfare against the poor and middle classes?

Possibly because for thousands of years the richest members of any society, those who loan money at interest, have consolidated government's power for their own selfish ends. Even the American Revolution didn't change that dynamic very much; central bankers don't really have to worry about who's elected to office as long as the private creation and allocation of credit remains safely in their hands.

OWS has already launched the class war into the consciousness of millions of Americans.
Events coming up next summer at the Democrat and Republican Conventions could provoke your question onto the public stage during the closing months of a US Presidential campaign.

If the US economy is swirling the same drain in 2012 as it was in 2008 millions of voters, whose ranks may be swelled by additional millions of eligible voters who don't usually bother casting a ballot, might decide a "choice" between Republican OR Democrat is really no choice at all when it comes to class war.

Debt Slavery

 

[Uncensored2008]

Here's what class warfare looks like!

Air Jordan shoes cause riots around nation | The Desert Sun | MyDesert.com

The poor fighting over a chance to spend $180.00 on a pair of sneakers. How poor can they BE?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Katzndogz again.

 

[westwall]

"In a recent Pew Foundation poll, 77 percent of respondents said too much power is in the hands of a few rich people and corporations..."

"If you run a giant bank that defrauds millions of small investors of their life savings, the bank might pay a small fine but you won’t go to prison. Not a single top Wall Street executive has been prosecuted for Wall Street’s mega-fraud. But if you sell an ounce of marijuana you could be put away for a long time."

Financial "success" isn't a good thing if it comes from Wall Street speculation or if you obtain it by accepting bribes from speculators. A wall between private wealth and the state is long overdue; however, I doubt elected Republicans OR Democrats would agree.

Robert Reich

In the last three decades or so, income inequality has been growing. While wages are being driven down for a number of reasons, corporate executives are taking ever larger pay and benefit packages, even when they drive their respective companies into the ditch.

Now, here's a question that I would like someone to seriously try to answer: Why is it that TALKING about income inequality qualifies as class warfare against the rich, but income inequality, itself, isn't considered class warfare against the poor and middle classes?

Possibly because for thousands of years the richest members of any society, those who loan money at interest, have consolidated government's power for their own selfish ends. Even the American Revolution didn't change that dynamic very much; central bankers don't really have to worry about who's elected to office as long as the private creation and allocation of credit remains safely in their hands.

OWS has already launched the class war into the consciousness of millions of Americans.
Events coming up next summer at the Democrat and Republican Conventions could provoke your question onto the public stage during the closing months of a US Presidential campaign.

If the US economy is swirling the same drain in 2012 as it was in 2008 millions of voters, whose ranks may be swelled by additional millions of eligible voters who don't usually bother casting a ballot, might decide a "choice" between Republican OR Democrat is really no choice at all when it comes to class war.

Debt Slavery

Here's a hint. Don't go into debt! Oh my garsh! What a novel concept! Take away their method of making money and they lose their power.

What a bunch of maroons you are.

 

[Mustang]

Here's what class warfare looks like!

Air Jordan shoes cause riots around nation | The Desert Sun | MyDesert.com

The poor fighting over a chance to spend $180.00 on a pair of sneakers. How poor can they BE?

That's not class warfare by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[francoHFW]

. Change the channel, dittoheads..... Under voodoo the last 30 years, historically low tax rates on the richest 1% have doubled to quadrupled their wealth while the 99% have suffered and the country has fallen apart and debt has jumped; at the same time health and college costs have skyrocketed and shortsighted policies have outsourced jobs for short term profit.Obama and the Dems are slowly turning that ship around, despite the greedy rich/corporations and their bought off charlatans' brainwashed dittoheads/haters...