VOX: "Obamacare’s individual mandate is unpopular. But it’s crucial to making Obamacare work"

[MadChemist]

But my experience with insurance companies has been VERY GOOD when it comes to getting my claims paid.

I'm very happy for you. Mine has been horrible. To the point where I'd like to see Insurance companies abolished and a Nuremburg trial for insurance executives for crimes against humanity.

Oh yes, we can tell you are loaded with bitterness and want to trash our current system to get revenge.

You pretty much present no argument....except for you goofy analogies.

I will repeat.......we pay 10,000 per person per year. That is way above what any other nation pays. Single Payer won't fix that. We simply use health care differently (as I pointed and supporeted.....the elderly abusing it because they need companionship.....which all you could reply to was un-uh we spend 30% of our money on end of life care....and 5% of health consumers account for 1/2 of that spending).

We won't fix this......

So we want to tax the healthy young so we can pay for our unwillingness to fix the system.

Simply stupid.

 

[dudmuck]

Blurred vision? Does this happen on all multi-syllabic posts, or just those you disagree with? Obviously, you should see your doctor, but it could be time for a new prescription. Maybe trade in those rose-colored, partisan shades for something that lets you see clearly for once

No, my vision is fine, it's the usual Koch-Brother approved text that just blurs... the sad thing is you type these things out like you've had an original thought.

Sadly, I remember the good old days when Republicans thought Libertarians were nuts and didn't pay any attention to them. Now they pander to them, and that's the problem.

Would you mind drawing a picture of a "libertarian"? Use the color crayons that seem right to you. It might give us more insight into what's going on in your head.

 

[MadChemist]

Blurred vision? Does this happen on all multi-syllabic posts, or just those you disagree with? Obviously, you should see your doctor, but it could be time for a new prescription. Maybe trade in those rose-colored, partisan shades for something that lets you see clearly for once

No, my vision is fine, it's the usual Koch-Brother approved text that just blurs... the sad thing is you type these things out like you've had an original thought.

Sadly, I remember the good old days when Republicans thought Libertarians were nuts and didn't pay any attention to them. Now they pander to them, and that's the problem.

Would you mind drawing a picture of a "libertarian"? Use the color crayons that seem right to you. It might give us more insight into what's going on in your head.

You must have missed the part where we discussed the fact that big business can't be distinguished from the "goberment".

So, really, it is the goberment........

But you fools don't get it.

 

[JoeB131]

No, they're really not. Your claim is a shrill, silly lie. The sky is not falling, a government take over of health care isn't he ONLY way. We have endless options ahead of us.

No, we really don't. If we did, then after whining about ObamaCare for 7 years, the GOP could have said, 'See, here is our Magic Market Pixie Dust Solution!!!"

They didn't even try to sell the usual stand-bys of tort reform (take away people's right to sue incompetent doctors) or selling across state line (preventing recourse on the local level).

 

[JoeB131]

Oh yes, we can tell you are loaded with bitterness and want to trash our current system to get revenge.

No, I want to trash the current system because it is horrible.

I will repeat.......we pay 10,000 per person per year. That is way above what any other nation pays. Single Payer won't fix that. We simply use health care differently (as I pointed and supporeted.....the elderly abusing it because they need companionship.....which all you could reply to was un-uh we spend 30% of our money on end of life care....and 5% of health consumers account for 1/2 of that spending).

We don't use it any differently than the Europeans do. The Europeans also spend most of their money at the "end of life' phase. Japan is in even worse shape because their population is more heavily weighted towards the elderly demographic. (Because they aren't having enough replacement babies and they don't allow immigration) Yet Japan spends less per capita than we do.

So we want to tax the healthy young so we can pay for our unwillingness to fix the system.

Well, no, the other fixes are getting rid of all the health care profiteering by big pharma, big insurance and big medical. That is also a key component.

 

[MadChemist]

Oh yes, we can tell you are loaded with bitterness and want to trash our current system to get revenge.

No, I want to trash the current system because it is horrible.

I will repeat.......we pay 10,000 per person per year. That is way above what any other nation pays. Single Payer won't fix that. We simply use health care differently (as I pointed and supporeted.....the elderly abusing it because they need companionship.....which all you could reply to was un-uh we spend 30% of our money on end of life care....and 5% of health consumers account for 1/2 of that spending).

We don't use it any differently than the Europeans do. The Europeans also spend most of their money at the "end of life' phase. Japan is in even worse shape because their population is more heavily weighted towards the elderly demographic. (Because they aren't having enough replacement babies and they don't allow immigration) Yet Japan spends less per capita than we do.

So we want to tax the healthy young so we can pay for our unwillingness to fix the system.

Well, no, the other fixes are getting rid of all the health care profiteering by big pharma, big insurance and big medical. That is also a key component.

You never address the issue.

We pay 10,000 per person. And if 30% is on end of life care, most of that is going through medicare (that lovely system you tout). 30% means 3,000 per person per year is going towards that.

And, as you've already pointed out, some countries spend little more than in total.

So there is no way we use it the same.

And we all know you hate insurance, pharma and whoever it is that your envy for making such a large salary......(which has been pointed out does not amount to a drop in the total bucket....but you keep your resentment). But they are not going anywhere. They are big business and any move toward reform will pass though them. They own part of the govenment.

And you want to force young people to feed that beast you refuse to fix.

 

[MadChemist]

My dad used to say that whenever someone presumes to tell you what your "options" are - guard your wallet. And get away from them as soon as possible. They're trying to scam you.

Nice to see obliviousness is multi-generational...

But it doesn't take away from the fact those really, really are the only two options.

No, they're really not. Your claim is a shrill, silly lie. The sky is not falling, a government take over of health care isn't he ONLY way. We have endless options ahead of us.

Unfortunately, they all include taking money out of the mouth of big business.

And they will naturally include economic parring down of systems that are not efficient (meaning people who live in BFN and still want easy access to health care....ain't going to get it).

All that represents risk, which people are unwilling to take.

This hatred of insurance companies is something I understand to a point, but the left fails to understand they exist because of government. I know people who have looked into starting local insurance companies that would have limited capabilities (these were doctors hoping to cut out the middle man and encourage people to take a more proactive approach to their health) who found it would be cost prohibitive to do anything that wasn't grand because of all the regulations involved.

You are right...we have unlimited options including getting rid of insurance altogether. But that somehow offends the moral sensibilities of those who think that everyone should be able to abuse the system at the same level all the while forcing the healthy young to pay so they can do so.

 

[MadChemist]

This country will never adopt single payer through the government.

Already, it appears Britian is modifying the NHS. I don't bash other systems...but even the fact that they are modifying it says something (not sure what is driving it). What I read is the need to reduce costs and a GOVERNMENT that is now doing that. So the govenment can give and it can take away.

Yep, I want that.

 

[JoeB131]

You never address the issue.

We pay 10,000 per person. And if 30% is on end of life care, most of that is going through medicare (that lovely system you tout). 30% means 3,000 per person per year is going towards that.

And so?

And, as you've already pointed out, some countries spend little more than in total.

So there is no way we use it the same.

I agree. We support big pharma, big insurance, and big medical, with their 9 figure exec salaries and big payouts to investors and cost gouging bullshit. It's the problem of a mentality that says it's a commodity and not a public service.

And we all know you hate insurance, pharma and whoever it is that your envy for making such a large salary......(which has been pointed out does not amount to a drop in the total bucket....but you keep your resentment). But they are not going anywhere. They are big business and any move toward reform will pass though them. They own part of the govenment.

Until we as a people say they don't. You see, they've taken the profiteering out of this in the rest of the world, and they spend less.

This isn't fucking complicated.

 

[JoeB131]

This country will never adopt single payer through the government.

Sure they will. Probably by 2024, after Trump has killed the Republican Party.

Already, it appears Britian is modifying the NHS. I don't bash other systems...but even the fact that they are modifying it says something (not sure what is driving it). What I read is the need to reduce costs and a GOVERNMENT that is now doing that. So the govenment can give and it can take away.

Here's the thing, the UK is probably the most cost effective system, and the government runs everything... even the hospitals.

 

[MadChemist]

You never address the issue.

We pay 10,000 per person. And if 30% is on end of life care, most of that is going through medicare (that lovely system you tout). 30% means 3,000 per person per year is going towards that.

And so?

And, as you've already pointed out, some countries spend little more than in total.

So there is no way we use it the same.

I agree. We support big pharma, big insurance, and big medical, with their 9 figure exec salaries and big payouts to investors and cost gouging bullshit. It's the problem of a mentality that says it's a commodity and not a public service.

And we all know you hate insurance, pharma and whoever it is that your envy for making such a large salary......(which has been pointed out does not amount to a drop in the total bucket....but you keep your resentment). But they are not going anywhere. They are big business and any move toward reform will pass though them. They own part of the govenment.

Until we as a people say they don't. You see, they've taken the profiteering out of this in the rest of the world, and they spend less.

This isn't fucking complicated.

You keep saying that, but you can't provide any numbers to prove your point.

We, as a people have pretty good insurance without Obamacare.

Sorry to break it to you.

 

[MadChemist]

This country will never adopt single payer through the government.

Sure they will. Probably by 2024, after Trump has killed the Republican Party.

Already, it appears Britian is modifying the NHS. I don't bash other systems...but even the fact that they are modifying it says something (not sure what is driving it). What I read is the need to reduce costs and a GOVERNMENT that is now doing that. So the govenment can give and it can take away.

Here's the thing, the UK is probably the most cost effective system, and the government runs everything... even the hospitals.

You do realize that you can google "who does not like the NHS in Britian and you'll get hundreds of hits.

I don't bash other systems.

My point in my original post was that the U.K. is trying to cut costs and people don't like it. How are they trying it.....going private in some places.

 

[JoeB131]

You keep saying that, but you can't provide any numbers to prove your point.

Except for all the charts and graphs I've posted, yeah... but never mind.

We, as a people have pretty good insurance without Obamacare.

Sorry to break it to you.

No, we don't. Having had to arm-wrestle with Cigna for two years to get something taken care of, and still ending up with thousands of dollars in debt, our system SUCKS.

Single Payer. Works fine for the rest of the world.

You do realize that you can google "who does not like the NHS in Britian and you'll get hundreds of hits.

And most of them are from Right Wing Nutter sites.

Here's the thing. We've had three Tory (Conservative) PM's in a row, and not a ONE of them has suggested getting rid of NHS. "We need big insurance companies to cheat us like the do the Americans!" said no one, ever.

 

[MadChemist]

You keep saying that, but you can't provide any numbers to prove your point.

Except for all the charts and graphs I've posted, yeah... but never mind.

We, as a people have pretty good insurance without Obamacare.

Sorry to break it to you.

No, we don't. Having had to arm-wrestle with Cigna for two years to get something taken care of, and still ending up with thousands of dollars in debt, our system SUCKS.

Single Payer. Works fine for the rest of the world.

You do realize that you can google "who does not like the NHS in Britian and you'll get hundreds of hits.

And most of them are from Right Wing Nutter sites.

Here's the thing. We've had three Tory (Conservative) PM's in a row, and not a ONE of them has suggested getting rid of NHS. "We need big insurance companies to cheat us like the do the Americans!" said no one, ever.

Bad news Joe.

Our system is pretty good. It works for most of us. When Obamacare was being considered, one statistic that was often quoted was that 80% of people were not happy with their insurance. That was total bull. 80%, including myself, knew we needed to change some things to increase accessibility. When a poll was taken on satisfaction it actually found that about 80% were happy with their insurance plan.

We have great doctors and we have great hospitals. We love them so much we spend 10,000 per person per year with them. Doctors make great salaries and we are happy to pay them.

Yes, you can keep telling me about Cigna and I will tell you that I have had great experiences. So who wins ? Your experience is not the world. Neither is mine.

Single Payer has it's plusses and minuses. If you were, at all honest, you'd admit that. But being the hack poster you are, I won't be holding my breath.

And, of course, any site that does not agree with you is a Right Wing Nutter site. You never addressed the sites I provided telling you about the elderly. Those said I ready that on a right wing hate site (of course you never asked me where I read it), and I showed you there were studies done. You just moved on...having lost that point.

But you keep the tactic. You are not interested in the truth.

There are people who have single payer who hate it as much as you hate Cigna. Sorry...thems the facts.

As I said, I don't bash systems, but why don't you tell me the names of the hate sites so I can avoid sharing information from a source you will dismiss out of hand.

 

[JoeB131]

Bad news Joe.

Our system is pretty good. It works for most of us.

Well, no, obviously it didn't given we had 43 million without insurance and 25 million with inadequate insurance before the ACA.

We spend more than any other country in the world, we get the worst results in the industrialized world related to infant mortality and life expectancy. 62% of bankruptcies are related to medical crisis and of those, 75% had insurance when the crisis broke out.

Single Payer has it's plusses and minuses. If you were, at all honest, you'd admit that. But being the hack poster you are, I won't be holding my breath.

I just don't see the minuses. Assholes can't get rich? I guess that's a minus.

There are people who have single payer who hate it as much as you hate Cigna. Sorry...thems the facts.

I'm sure there are. Some rich Canadian had to share a ward with some poor people once. Oh, the shame. Oh, the horror.

We spend the most money and we get the worst results for an advanced country. Nuff said.

 

[dblack]

Bad news Joe.

Our system is pretty good. It works for most of us.

Well, no, obviously it didn't given we had 43 million without insurance and 25 million with inadequate insurance before the ACA.

You need to brush up your math, Joe. That leaves 255 million with. ie, "most".

That said, "coverage" is a horrible metric. I know it's outside your comprehension, but insurance is not the same thing as health care. Not having health insurance doesn't mean you can't buy health care, and having insurance doesn't mean you'll get all the health care you need.

Single Payer has it's plusses and minuses. If you were, at all honest, you'd admit that. But being the hack poster you are, I won't be holding my breath.

I just don't see the minuses. Assholes can't get rich? I guess that's a minus.

Do you really think Congress would create a federal program that didn't include assholes getting rich!?! C'mon. You're kidding, right?

 

[JoeB131]

You need to brush up your math, Joe. That leaves 255 million with. ie, "most".

Are you some kind of fucking retard where you think 70 million people without coverage is a good thing?

Oh, wait, you're a libertarian. That's a Retard whose read Ayn Rand.

That said, "coverage" is a horrible metric. I know it's outside your comprehension, but insurance is not the same thing as health care. Not having health insurance doesn't mean you can't buy health care, and having insurance doesn't mean you'll get all the health care you need.

No, it means you are less likely to see a doctor because you don't want to go bankrupt. It's how simple colds turn into cases of pneumonia at the ER.

Do you really think Congress would create a federal program that didn't include assholes getting rich!?! C'mon. You're kidding, right?

I would say that the very fact the Rich Assholes fought tooth and nail against HillaryCare indicated that they were in mortal terror they wouldn't.

 

[MadChemist]

Bad news Joe.

Our system is pretty good. It works for most of us.

Well, no, obviously it didn't given we had 43 million without insurance and 25 million with inadequate insurance before the ACA.

We spend more than any other country in the world, we get the worst results in the industrialized world related to infant mortality and life expectancy. 62% of bankruptcies are related to medical crisis and of those, 75% had insurance when the crisis broke out.

Single Payer has it's plusses and minuses. If you were, at all honest, you'd admit that. But being the hack poster you are, I won't be holding my breath.

I just don't see the minuses. Assholes can't get rich? I guess that's a minus.

There are people who have single payer who hate it as much as you hate Cigna. Sorry...thems the facts.

I'm sure there are. Some rich Canadian had to share a ward with some poor people once. Oh, the shame. Oh, the horror.

We spend the most money and we get the worst results for an advanced country. Nuff said.

Thanks for confirming what we thought we knew about your open-mindedness.

 

[MadChemist]

Do you really think Congress would create a federal program that didn't include assholes getting rich!?! C'mon. You're kidding, right?

I appreciate your approach as a poster.

Have you ever read Thomas Sowell's "A Conflict of Visions" ?

In it, he describes a class of people who simply cant accept what history tells them, but instead looks to their own intellect to say "Surely we can do this".

I think Joe is the poster boy for that group.

It would be great if we could make something "good" happen that would fullfill his dreams. But reality says it does not exist.

The allusion to European models without any acknowledgement of their pit-falls is a prime example.

Simple
Clean
Everyone has ultruistic motives
Cheap

I am sure he is not kidding when he thinks that would happen if "We the People" will it. But if you look at Obamacare, it is quite clear that not everyone who is "We the People" want the same thing.

Then it goes to....if you don't want it....you are stupid (which is a classic left wing attitude).

 

[JoeB131]

I am sure he is not kidding when he thinks that would happen if "We the People" will it. But if you look at Obamacare, it is quite clear that not everyone who is "We the People" want the same thing.

Then it goes to....if you don't want it....you are stupid (which is a classic left wing attitude).

Here's the thing guy. Up until 2008, until I realized that the GOP as just rich people manipulating the religious stupids into voting against their own economic interests, I voted Republican.

And then in 2008, after my wonderful two years of arm wrestling with Cigna to get my knee fixed, my Romney-loving boss screwed me over and said, "That's why I'm glad I don't have to deal with a union."

So I looked at my busted 401K, my underwater mortgage and had taken a new job that was beneath my skill level and was happy to get that, I really had to ask myself, "Why the fuck am I supporting people who screw me?"

And I couldn't come up with a good answer.

In it, he describes a class of people who simply cant accept what history tells them, but instead looks to their own intellect to say "Surely we can do this".

Hey, guy, here's what history tells me-

EVERY COUNTRY THAT HAS SINGLE PAYER HAS MADE IT WORK!

But I'm sure you'll babble some horseshit about the USSR and "Eeek, Socialism" or some such. I have no time or patience for that bullshit. ''

Yeah we won the Cold War. We lasted a whole 20 years longer than the USSR before the whole thing fell apart in 2008.