VOX: "Obamacare’s individual mandate is unpopular. But it’s crucial to making Obamacare work"

[MadChemist]

I get a little hinky when someone tells me that I need the federal government to protect me from myself.

I'm sure you do... but in your case, "self protection" should probably include mandetory medication.

How does anyone rebuff a claim of "not being universal" with an anecdote ?

You really do come here to just spout off...don't you ?

It's hardly an anecdote. It says a lot about how Cigna operates, doesn't it.

Hey, first five years I had Cigna, it was awesome, they took my money, I rarely got sick or had to go to a doctor....

It's when I had to see a doctor it got kind of awful. 'Oh, wait, this is an elective surgery".

Of course.

We spend 10,000 per person per year, but single payer is somehow going to solve that.

Go it.

So let's look at that.

HEre's a chart of what they pay per capita in advanced nations.

Now, check it out, the United Kingdom, where they have completely socialized medicine, the government runs everything, including the hospitals, they spend $3917 per citizen on health care.

Canada, where they have single payer, but the hospitals are still private interests, they spend $4506 per citizen.

But the Good old US of A, where we let big corporations profit off of human Misery, we spend $9024 per citizen.

Wow.

Oh, the British and Canadians live longer and have lower infant mortality rates than we do.

Yes, I am quite familiar with those numbers.....why do you think I (meaning someone besides you) brought it up ?

In 2016 it was over 10,000 per person.

That won't cut it.

But you think single payer will make prices come down ?

Really ?

 

[JoeB131]

That's certainly not what I'm saying. That's actually the kind of regulation we need from government.

But the thread is about the individual mandate, which has nothing to do with protecting consumers from getting screwed by insurance companies. In fact, it pins us down so we can't get away.

again, it's more necessary to make the whole thing work. The problem with not requiring a mandate is you essentially let people buy insurance AFTER they get sick. The system would collapse. Which I personally wouldn't have a problem with, that would get us to Single Payer that much faster. But we have to make it fair for all sides.

Yes, you want to replace a cabal of corporate overlords with one. I think that's silly, but the thread is about the mandate. Do you support it? Do you like being forced to buy insurance from the same crooked bastards who have been screwing you all these years.

I've explained to you many times. I want single payer.

Big insurance says they can't make the current system work unless they are allowed to either cheat their customers or require everyone to buy a policy. Okay. Let's give that a go.

Then we go to single payer.

Here's the thing. Two things they could have done that would have fixed the current system.

1) Set up a Public Option.
2) Allow a Medicare Buy in for people my age (55+).

That way the insurance companies could insure young healthy people, and the rest of us would have been covered by something else.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, I am quite familiar with those numbers.....why do you think I (meaning someone besides you) brought it up ?

In 2016 it was over 10,000 per person.

That won't cut it.

But you think single payer will make prices come down ?

Really ?

Yes, I do.

First, we get rid of Ed Hanway and his fucking 9 figure bonus. We get rid of all the useless ass insurance company sh it that is about making money. Bam. Prices go down.

Further, every doctor's office won't need 3 employees whose job it is to decipher 100 Insurance plans to figure out what is and isn't covered. Bam. Prices go down.

Finally, because we won't have poor people using the emergency room as their doctor because they can get in to see a doctor, BAM, prices go down.

This isn't fucking complicated. In fact, it's so uncomplicated THE REST OF THE WORLD ALREADY FIGURED IT OUT!!!

 

[MadChemist]

Yes, I am quite familiar with those numbers.....why do you think I (meaning someone besides you) brought it up ?

In 2016 it was over 10,000 per person.

That won't cut it.

But you think single payer will make prices come down ?

Really ?

Yes, I do.

First, we get rid of Ed Hanway and his fucking 9 figure bonus. We get rid of all the useless ass insurance company sh it that is about making money. Bam. Prices go down.

Further, every doctor's office won't need 3 employees whose job it is to decipher 100 Insurance plans to figure out what is and isn't covered. Bam. Prices go down.

Finally, because we won't have poor people using the emergency room as their doctor because they can get in to see a doctor, BAM, prices go down.

This isn't fucking complicated. In fact, it's so uncomplicated THE REST OF THE WORLD ALREADY FIGURED IT OUT!!!

That's a great dream.

Why don't you provide some actual projected numbers that show what the reductions would be.

1. Taking 9 (or even 10) figures away won't even hit the radar screen.

2. Single payer will be admiinstered through insurance companies. Don't even fool yourself into thinking it would be any different. You would not iimplement a system like that and try to recreated it from the ground up.

3. Every doctors office can get rid of 3 employees....maybe. Again, won't matter. Their costs are swallowed up in one expensive patient a year. No impact.

4. Poor people will still use the emergency room. They won't have access to everything (the rest of the civilized world does not have full access) and they'll just do what they've always done. I agree reducing emergency room visits helps. But emergecare clinics have already helped that in many ways.

5. And the rest of the world has not figured it out. They are constantly changing. there is a poster on here talking about how the British are screwing with the NHS to save money.....

6. You crow about Canada, but they actually have their systems tailored to the provinces. I used to travel to Alberta on business and I watched an election cycle go on where one of the main points was the lack of medical professionals (for various reasons). It sounded like that shortage was a big deal. I don't bash other systems, but I can tell you that not all Canadian like their system.

 

[dblack]

Yes, you want to replace a cabal of corporate overlords with one. I think that's silly, but the thread is about the mandate. Do you support it? Do you like being forced to buy insurance from the same crooked bastards who have been screwing you all these years.

I've explained to you many times. I want single payer.

Too bad. You don't have the votes.

Big insurance says they can't make the current system work unless they are allowed to either cheat their customers or require everyone to buy a policy. Okay. Let's give that a go.

Why? Just so we can drag everyone through so much shit that single payer will look good in comparison??? Fuck you.

 

[MadChemist]

That's certainly not what I'm saying. That's actually the kind of regulation we need from government.

But the thread is about the individual mandate, which has nothing to do with protecting consumers from getting screwed by insurance companies. In fact, it pins us down so we can't get away.

again, it's more necessary to make the whole thing work. The problem with not requiring a mandate is you essentially let people buy insurance AFTER they get sick. The system would collapse. Which I personally wouldn't have a problem with, that would get us to Single Payer that much faster. But we have to make it fair for all sides.

Yes, you want to replace a cabal of corporate overlords with one. I think that's silly, but the thread is about the mandate. Do you support it? Do you like being forced to buy insurance from the same crooked bastards who have been screwing you all these years.

I've explained to you many times. I want single payer.

Big insurance says they can't make the current system work unless they are allowed to either cheat their customers or require everyone to buy a policy. Okay. Let's give that a go.

Then we go to single payer.

Here's the thing. Two things they could have done that would have fixed the current system.

1) Set up a Public Option.
2) Allow a Medicare Buy in for people my age (55+).

That way the insurance companies could insure young healthy people, and the rest of us would have been covered by something else.

In the end, all you've pretty much proposes is cost shifting. You have not suggested anything that would significanlty impact health care costs.

Let me give you one example: End of life care (last year of life) is about 30% of our total bill. If people had the balls to have that kind of conversation (i.e. no chemo or radiation for stage 4 lung cancer after a certain age) , you might see a dent. Also, hospitals don't have (at least not the ones I've been to) wards. Everything is a private or semi-private room.

I like the Singapore model. The state gives you a ward. You want a private room, you can pay the difference.

Another examples ithat our aging population tends to use the doctors office as a social time. They get lonely....guess where they go. You made it free...so they have no incentive not to go. You make it single payer.....guess what's going to happen ?

So, your desire for single payer isn't a desire for the best.

HSA's combined with inexpensive catastrophic care is the way to go.

 

[dblack]

HSA's combined with inexpensive catastrophic care is the way to go.

That would work great if we could keep the 'regulators' out of it. The problem is that the insurance lobby, and their duly sponsored representatives in Congress, would figure out a way to turn it into a payday for their friends.

 

[MadChemist]

HSA's combined with inexpensive catastrophic care is the way to go.

That would work great if we could keep the 'regulators' out of it. The problem is that the insurance lobby, and their duly sponsored representatives in Congress, would figure out a way to turn it into a payday for their friends.

Agreed. But you have to have a goal.

 

[JoeB131]

1. Taking 9 (or even 10) figures away won't even hit the radar screen.

Sure it will.

2. Single payer will be admiinstered through insurance companies. Don't even fool yourself into thinking it would be any different. You would not iimplement a system like that and try to recreated it from the ground up.

I think it will take a while to get rid of the insurance companies, but it shouldn't. Here's how you drive them out of business. You set up a public option that has better benefits, for less money, and everyone has the right to pick that instead of private insurance.

6. You crow about Canada, but they actually have their systems tailored to the provinces. I used to travel to Alberta on business and I watched an election cycle go on where one of the main points was the lack of medical professionals (for various reasons). It sounded like that shortage was a big deal. I don't bash other systems, but I can tell you that not all Canadian like their system.

The main reason why they have a shortage is because it's a sparsely populated country and the professionals come here when they get experience.

Too bad. You don't have the votes.

Single Payer is pretty much inevitable. And you guys can't cheat the voters forever no matter how much the Russians help you cheat. 2018- Democratic Congress, Impeach Trump, you're done.

Why? Just so we can drag everyone through so much shit that single payer will look good in comparison??? Fuck you.

Oh, I see, the Libertarian Mantra. "I got mine, fuck you!" Got it. SO what if those POOR people can't get health insurance. As long as I have mine and I don't have a serious injury where my insurance company screws me, fuck those other people.

Another examples ithat our aging population tends to use the doctors office as a social time. They get lonely....guess where they go. You made it free...so they have no incentive not to go. You make it single payer.....guess what's going to happen ?

Yes, i'm sure you heard that on Hate Radio once, and you think it's true.

Old people go to the doctor because they are sick. Guess what, old people get lonely in Single Payer countries, and they actually manage to live longer.

 

[dblack]

Why? Just so we can drag everyone through so much shit that single payer will look good in comparison??? Fuck you.

Oh, I see, the Libertarian Mantra. "I got mine, fuck you!" Got it. SO what if those POOR people can't get health insurance. As long as I have mine and I don't have a serious injury where my insurance company screws me, fuck those other people.

Quite the opposite. I actually care about my country and don't want to see it sold out to corporate interests because of your fascist pipe dream.

 

[JoeB131]

Quite the opposite. I actually care about my country and don't want to see it sold out to corporate interests because of your fascist pipe dream.

Yeah, you care about "your country", but you don't have a problem with poor people dying of treatable diseases because the Koch Brothers told you it was about "Freedom" or something.

 

[dblack]

Too bad. You don't have the votes.

Single Payer is pretty much inevitable. And you guys can't cheat the voters forever no matter how much the Russians help you cheat. 2018- Democratic Congress, Impeach Trump, you're done.

Dream on. All it's done so far is elect Trump. Nice job!

 

[dblack]

Quite the opposite. I actually care about my country and don't want to see it sold out to corporate interests because of your fascist pipe dream.

Yeah, you care about "your country", but you don't have a problem with poor people dying of treatable diseases because the Koch Brothers told you it was about "Freedom" or something.

Freedom is your enemy, it's true.

 

[JoeB131]

Dream on. All it's done so far is elect Trump. Nice job!

No, the Russians elected Trump. The people said no.

Freedom is your enemy, it's true.

No, rich people are my enemy. Every issue I've had in life has been because someone with more money and more power decided they could screw me over to benefit themselves.

Your definition of "Freedom" means the biggest asshole wins. It's not a coincidence that rich people bankroll your little Libertarian Cult, and get stupid people like you to think you are being deprived "Freedom" by programs that benefit you.

 

[dblack]

Freedom is your enemy, it's true.

No, rich people are my enemy. Every issue I've had in life has been because someone with more money and more power decided they could screw me over to benefit themselves.

It's seems to me that you have the fundamental mindset of a slave. And you want to replace your perceived "masters" with government. But the rich do not own you, they can't force their will on you. The government can.

Your definition of "Freedom" means the biggest asshole wins. It's not a coincidence that rich people bankroll your little Libertarian Cult, and get stupid people like you to think you are being deprived "Freedom" by programs that benefit you.

You don't understand my conception of freedom. Either that, or you do and simply misrepresent it to suit your needs. Or maybe you're just a complete fascist idiot, I dunno. But giving up our freedom to assuage your desperate insecurities isn't something I'll oblige.

 

[JoeB131]

It's seems to me that you have the fundamental mindset of a slave. And you want to replace your perceived "masters" with government. But the rich do not own you, they can't force their will on you. The government can.

actually, the rich can and do force their will on us, all the time. The problem is, we've let them do it.

Probably because of libertarian assholes like you talking about freedom and getting rid of the legal protections we had like laws and unions.

You don't understand my conception of freedom. Either that, or you do and simply misrepresent it to suit your needs. Or maybe you're just a complete fascist idiot, I dunno. But giving up our freedom to assuage your desperate insecurities isn't something I'll oblige.

Again, when a LIbertarian talks about freedom, they talk about the ability o the rich to abuse the rest of us. That you are too dumb to realize that you are a tool is really not my problem.

It's not fascism to see health care as a public service instead of a luxury commodity. It's just common fucking decency.

 

[dblack]

It's seems to me that you have the fundamental mindset of a slave. And you want to replace your perceived "masters" with government. But the rich do not own you, they can't force their will on you. The government can.

actually, the rich can and do force their will on us, all the time. The problem is, we've let them do it.

Speak for yourself. If you don't like them shitting on you, don't sign up. The problem is, again, the slave mindset. You don't see an employer as an equal. You see them as your master. But that's your problem. You shouldn't try to shunt it off on the rest of us with government mandate.

It's not fascism to see health care as a public service instead of a luxury commodity. It's just common fucking decency.

You misspelled "dependency"

 

[JoeB131]

Speak for yourself. If you don't like them shitting on you, don't sign up. The problem is, again, the slave mindset. You don't see an employer as an equal. You see them as your master. But that's your problem. You shouldn't try to shunt it off on the rest of us with government mandate.

No, I see the reality that they have money and power and if they really want to fuck up my life, they can because after 40 years of Republicans, we gave up a lot of the things to protect ourselves.

You look at the Conservative/Libertarian Hate list, and it involves Unions, Government and Lawyers. Nothing a plutocrat hates more than a fair fight.

Now, a fair fight is, my boss fucks me over, I can beat the ever living fuck out of him, then and there. But that's not the system we have.

You misspelled "dependency"

Yeah, I know, you rugged individualists, who want all the benefits of civilization.

Libertarians are like retarded children.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

As long as they are honest with their customers before they sell them a policy, it's none of your business.

But you just hit on the exact problem. THEY AREN'T HONEST. They are out to make money.

And frankly, the customers aren't going to be honest, either. They'll lie about their medical conditions if they can get away with it.

And this is why you need government, buddy. To protect us from each other and sometimes ourselves. But you think it will all work with Libertarian Fairy dust.

The only place where Dishonest people thrive is as a Democrat politicians. The free markets crushes dishonest merchants

 

[dblack]

Yeah, I know, you rugged individualists, who want all the benefits of civilization.

You really don't, know, at all, anything about liberty. To you it's just people "whining" because they don't want government dictating our every move. Go fuck yourself.