VOX: "Obamacare’s individual mandate is unpopular. But it’s crucial to making Obamacare work"

[MadChemist]

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Libertarians don't see government as the enemy. Government is a tool. Whether it is good or bad, enemy or friend, depends how we use government. If we use it to protect freedom, for everyone equally, it's a good thing. This is why we need government.

The enemy, from a libertarian perspective, is people who want to use government as an all-purpose means of manipulating society

Again, you guys want civilization, you don't want the hard work that's involved in it.

Really? Are you just grabbing these from a list of libertarian slurs or something? Did you even read my post?

No, he didn't.

It's clear he does not care.

He's a lover of the idea that government will somehow make it better in spite of a history of nations that tells him the opposite.

Why you bother with him, I don't understand.

 

[MadChemist]

People realize it. They just don't care enough to stop it. Because again, as I said, this civilization thing is hard work. So Trump steals an election, passes a tax law that benefits people like him.

You realize that big business and the rich use government to stay rich and get richer and yet you call for more government ?

Classic.

 

[MadChemist]

I call that a lost cause.

You mean you got bitch-slapped like a little pussy and you are whining now.

Yes, you swamp me with data. I can't digest it all.

I'll be bypassing your posts here pretty soon.

It is quite clear you are a zealot.

 

[dblack]

Mark my word, when the deficit balloons again, we are going to hear how we need to cut Granny's social security check to pay for it. And dipshits like you and DBlack will be screaming "liberty" and "Freedom" when Granny is eating fucking Alpo.

Not me. I'll be buying Granny dinner. And reminding her, after tea of oourse, that it was ignorant fucks like Joe who put government in charge of deciding what kind of retirement she should have.

 

[MadChemist]

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Libertarians don't see government as the enemy. Government is a tool. Whether it is good or bad, enemy or friend, depends how we use government. If we use it to protect freedom, for everyone equally, it's a good thing. This is why we need government.

The enemy, from a libertarian perspective, is people who want to use government as an all-purpose means of manipulating society

Again, you guys want civilization, you don't want the hard work that's involved in it.

How many pintos were manufactured and how many exploded ?

Too many exploded, that's the problem, stupid. This was a problem that could have been fixed for all of $11.00.

The problem was that Ford knew the Pinto was dangerous before they even hit the fucking show rooms.

And they calculated that recalling 11 million Pintos was cheaper than paying out a maximum 2100 crash victims.

THIS is what you get in DBlack's happy world where the government doesn't get involved, and we have to rely on the enlightened self interests of greedy corporations. The only reason we know about this at all was because someone leaked the memo to Mother Jones magazine.

The Pinto Memo: ‘It’s Cheaper to let them Burn!’


Full disclosure, I drive a Ford Focus, which is a pretty nice car.

You can't produce the number.

Your site says that 9,000 people burned to death in Pinto's. That number is incredible.

Nobody went to jail for killing 3x the number of people killed on 9/11. Ain't buying it.

And look at you......no market savy at all.....you drive a Ford. Good job of making Ford pay for it's lack of compassion.

GM pissed me off 30 years ago....and I would not drive a GM even if they gave it to me for free.

 

[MadChemist]

Mark my word, when the deficit balloons again, we are going to hear how we need to cut Granny's social security check to pay for it. And dipshits like you and DBlack will be screaming "liberty" and "Freedom" when Granny is eating fucking Alpo.

Not me. I'll be buying Granny dinner. And reminding her, after tea of oourse, that it was ignorant fucks like Joe who put government in charge of deciding what kind of retirement age should have.

Like Social Security isn't putting people on ALPO now ? That is the laugher. We don't have a good conversation around any of this. I know elderly who should be living with their children because they need care, but the kids won't take them in. It's not their job and they don't have time (to busy getting divorced or going to jail).

Average S.S. check is something like 1,100. It was never supposed to be primary retirement. Granny's going to have a great life on that.

Answer: raise taxes.

But the rich who are protected by the government won't be paying them.

Answer: more government.

Incredible.

 

[JoeB131]

Really? Are you just grabbing these from a list of libertarian slurs or something? Did you even read my post?

All of your posts kind of blur after a certain point, buddy. Freedom, the government wants to run our lives, blah, blah, blah, whatever the Koch Brothers told you to think today. Whatever.

And yes, Social Security (which has always said it SHOULD NOT be your primary retirement income) will get cut and those who relied on the government and took no responsibility for themselves will be eating ALPO if they are lucky.

Well, here's the thing. After Wall Street looted their pensions and 401K's, a lot of folks are ending up with just social security, and that's the problem.

But now they want to cut that to pay for tax cuts for billionaires, and stupid idiots like you say, "Um,fuh, fuh, freedom!"

 

[dblack]

Really? Are you just grabbing these from a list of libertarian slurs or something? Did you even read my post?

All of your posts kind of blur after a certain point, buddy. Freedom, the government wants to run our lives, blah, blah, blah, whatever the Koch Brothers told you to think today. Whatever.

Blurred vision? Does this happen on all multi-syllabic posts, or just those you disagree with? Obviously, you should see your doctor, but it could be time for a new prescription. Maybe trade in those rose-colored, partisan shades for something that lets you see clearly for once

 

[JoeB131]

No, he didn't.

It's clear he does not care.

He's a lover of the idea that government will somehow make it better in spite of a history of nations that tells him the opposite.

Why you bother with him, I don't understand.

Actually, what history shows is government does a pretty good job of running health care. The British are damned proud of their NHS and even conservatives won't touch it. They don't dare.

What history shows is that you get bad leaders when you are a bad people. When you brutalize a nation badly enough, it damages the culture- Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, etc. The government wasn't so much the problem as the people were.

 

[JoeB131]

Blurred vision? Does this happen on all multi-syllabic posts, or just those you disagree with? Obviously, you should see your doctor, but it could be time for a new prescription. Maybe trade in those rose-colored, partisan shades for something that lets you see clearly for once

No, my vision is fine, it's the usual Koch-Brother approved text that just blurs... the sad thing is you type these things out like you've had an original thought.

Sadly, I remember the good old days when Republicans thought Libertarians were nuts and didn't pay any attention to them. Now they pander to them, and that's the problem.

 

[dblack]

Blurred vision? Does this happen on all multi-syllabic posts, or just those you disagree with? Obviously, you should see your doctor, but it could be time for a new prescription. Maybe trade in those rose-colored, partisan shades for something that lets you see clearly for once

No, my vision is fine, it's the usual Koch-Brother approved text that just blurs... the sad thing is you type these things out like you've had an original thought.

Sadly, I remember the good old days when Republicans thought Libertarians were nuts and didn't pay any attention to them. Now they pander to them, and that's the problem.

Would you mind drawing a picture of a "libertarian"? Use the color crayons that seem right to you. It might give us more insight into what's going on in your head.

 

[MadChemist]

Really? Are you just grabbing these from a list of libertarian slurs or something? Did you even read my post?

All of your posts kind of blur after a certain point, buddy. Freedom, the government wants to run our lives, blah, blah, blah, whatever the Koch Brothers told you to think today. Whatever.

And yes, Social Security (which has always said it SHOULD NOT be your primary retirement income) will get cut and those who relied on the government and took no responsibility for themselves will be eating ALPO if they are lucky.

Well, here's the thing. After Wall Street looted their pensions and 401K's, a lot of folks are ending up with just social security, and that's the problem.

But now they want to cut that to pay for tax cuts for billionaires, and stupid idiots like you say, "Um,fuh, fuh, freedom!"

I'll make a couple of last attempts to see if you really can post without sounding like an autobot.

1. You don't think your postgs don't blur real quickly (can you seriously answer this question ?) ?
2. There are other points of view. People who want less government don't want NO government. Are they not allowed to have those opinions without being called idiots.
3. You just admitted government helps the rich...yet you say want more government and government is good. I realize that there is an explanation in there that might clear this up....care to share it.
4. I don't recall anyone's 401K "being looted". Before the crash, the average 55 year old had something like 50,000 socked away. Not much there to loot. I am not a fan of wall street, but I also know that people don't do such a good job of saving. That is why, despite my conservative views, I would NEVER get rid of Social Security.
5. I don't agree with tax cuts for billionares. That isn't freedom. That is government helping the rich. Do you have a problem with target recognition ?
6. Please show me where I touted Freedom instead of addressing an issue.
7. Please make the statement where we can all read it, that you actually consider other points of view.

I do. As an example: I have never liked Social Security in it's current form. At the same time, I came around to the idea that if people want to retire early, they need to save. And many of them don't have the self discipine to do so. Would I change he formatting of Social Security....you bet. Would I privatize it.....not at the first tier. My understanding of why social security came about grew as I read more on it. I have modified my thinking.

I see no reason to respond to your constant lectures when you think you know it all and call other people idiots. Especially a good poster like dblack who attempts to present a point of view without the name calling. You can go on thinking you've b-slapped someone when in reality, you are 90,000 posts into self-humiliation.

 

[MadChemist]

No, he didn't.

It's clear he does not care.

He's a lover of the idea that government will somehow make it better in spite of a history of nations that tells him the opposite.

Why you bother with him, I don't understand.

Actually, what history shows is government does a pretty good job of running health care. The British are damned proud of their NHS and even conservatives won't touch it. They don't dare.

What history shows is that you get bad leaders when you are a bad people. When you brutalize a nation badly enough, it damages the culture- Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, etc. The government wasn't so much the problem as the people were.

Actually, history shows us nothing of the kind since that is only recent history. And the NHS is under severe attack. The Canadians (as pointed out) are aware of their issues too. I don't bash other systems. They have their good points and bad points.

But my statement wasn't about healthcare....it was about government in general. And your statement about bad people is simply beyond reason. Government is not a computer...it is the people who run it. And books are filled with the history of nations who crumbled under bad leadership. You create the opportunity and power hungry people will gravitate towards it.

 

[MadChemist]

Really? Are you just grabbing these from a list of libertarian slurs or something? Did you even read my post?

All of your posts kind of blur after a certain point, buddy. Freedom, the government wants to run our lives, blah, blah, blah, whatever the Koch Brothers told you to think today. Whatever.

Blurred vision? Does this happen on all multi-syllabic posts, or just those you disagree with? Obviously, you should see your doctor, but it could be time for a new prescription. Maybe trade in those rose-colored, partisan shades for something that lets you see clearly for once

They are way beyond rose colored glasses. His whole retinal system is hardwired to select only what fits his fantasy. I think I'll bow out of this one and start one where he won't be invited.

 

[MadChemist]

So.....the product doesn't work unless people are forced to buy the product?

The OBAMACARE mandate is a tax on Americans who can’t afford insurance. “This is a moral outrage, and the public agrees: 66% of Americans oppose the mandate, according to a 2017 YouGov poll.”

so what's the alternative?

Allow insurance companies to call everything a "pre-existing" condition?

Or don't allow them, but then allow people to buy insurance when they get sick?

That would bankrupt the Insurance Industry pretty quickly.

Let's go back to the OP.

The point was the mandate was unpopular. Imagine that.

The response (in favor of the mandate) is to manuracture an argument that really isn't an argument at all.

I am not a fan of big business.

But my experience with insurance companies has been VERY GOOD when it comes to getting my claims paid.

In fact, Blue Cross/Blue Shield covered my wife's 2nd pregnancy even though she was pregnant when we sighed up. Those miserable creeps !

But I also know that insurance hasn't always been above board with others.

And I know that government has been propping up insurance for decades (thanks guys...keeps those votes and money coming in).

We spend 10,000 per person per year.

And instead of getting that cost down (most nations are less than half that), we force the young to help pay for unwillingness to address it.

What a great concept.

 

[JoeB131]

Would you mind drawing a picture of a "libertarian"? Use the color crayons that seem right to you. It might give us more insight into what's going on in your head.

Well, it would be a dumb person listening to Hate Radio and whatever the Koch Brothers tell them. Usually hoping to finally hit 5% in a national election so they can get government matching funds.

They are truly the most worthless fucks in the political spectrum. Even worse than the religious nuts. at least they have something positive they want to accomplish.

Let's go back to the OP.

The point was the mandate was unpopular. Imagine that.

Of course it is. We all want something for nothing. It's also the only way to make the system work if we really want to avoid single payer, which I guess is what you wingnuts want because "Freeeeeeedom". Or Something.

But my experience with insurance companies has been VERY GOOD when it comes to getting my claims paid.

I'm very happy for you. Mine has been horrible. To the point where I'd like to see Insurance companies abolished and a Nuremburg trial for insurance executives for crimes against humanity.

And I know that government has been propping up insurance for decades (thanks guys...keeps those votes and money coming in).

We spend 10,000 per person per year.

And instead of getting that cost down (most nations are less than half that), we force the young to help pay for unwillingness to address it.

The problem with this is you think "Market Fairies" (the Libertarian favorite) will drive costs down if we just let big insurance, big pharma and big medicine cheat people.

Here's why the usual arguments don't work.

Let's take a car. I have the choice of keeping my old car running, by paying for repairs as they come up, I could buy a really expensive luxury car, or I can buy a really cheap economy car. So it's up to the Auto industry to make those options attractive, otherwise I could just not buy a car at all.

Medicine is a different animal. You can't really take the option of doing nothing. So they pretty much have you over the barrel and can charge whatever the fuck they want. so you see crap on your bill like $100 for a Tylenol. - Yes, this was on my bill when I had my knee surgery that Cigna didn't want to pay for because it was "elective".

So your real options are- Making it a public service that we all pay for and take as we need.

Or

Make it a luxury item only the rich can afford.

Now, the rest of the world- HAS ALREADY FIGURED THIS OUT. They've gone to single payer. they've set prices reasonably at where they should be at, they don't have assholes collecting 9 figure salaries or six people in an office filing paperwork.

But because the rich live in mortal fear they might have to go to the same hospital as an icky poor person, they spend lots of money telling people like DBlack that single payer would be an infringement on their "Freeeeeedom".

 

[dblack]

So your real options are- Making it a public service that we all pay for and take as we need.

Or

Make it a luxury item only the rich can afford.

My dad used to say that whenever someone presumes to tell you what your "options" are - guard your wallet. And get away from them as soon as possible. They're trying to scam you.

 

[JoeB131]

My dad used to say that whenever someone presumes to tell you what your "options" are - guard your wallet. And get away from them as soon as possible. They're trying to scam you.

Nice to see obliviousness is multi-generational...

But it doesn't take away from the fact those really, really are the only two options.

what the rest of the world does with great results,

or

some variation of the fucked up shit we do, that costs more with the worst results.

 

[dblack]

My dad used to say that whenever someone presumes to tell you what your "options" are - guard your wallet. And get away from them as soon as possible. They're trying to scam you.

Nice to see obliviousness is multi-generational...

But it doesn't take away from the fact those really, really are the only two options.

No, they're really not. Your claim is a shrill, silly lie. The sky is not falling, a government take over of health care isn't he ONLY way. We have endless options ahead of us.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Obamacare’s individual mandate, the new target in the GOP tax plan, explained

So.....the product doesn't work unless people are forced to buy the product?

The OBAMACARE mandate is a tax on Americans who can’t afford insurance. “This is a moral outrage, and the public agrees: 66% of Americans oppose the mandate, according to a 2017 YouGov poll.”

I actually agree with the Mandate I think it is a great idea. Everyone should be on health insurance and if someone can't afford to buy Obamacare then the taxpayers buy the insurance for that person plain and simple. They go to the hospital taxpayers pay all that person's medical bills.

It is the Christian thing to do.

Yea you agree with it because you don't belie in choice



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