Vail of Ignorance exercise...

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by dmp
Tough Luck...people tend to be 'disadvantaged' by their own making anyway.

(shrug)

I don't remember meeting a person who through NO fault of their own was 'poor'. There ARE jobs. There IS work.

Yeah, but when many jobs don't even pay a living wage and provide no healthcare benefits, you're better off going on the dole.

So, how do we resolve the problem?

1. A public education system geared towards teaching our children to think and reason effectively rather than the memorize-regurgitate-forget system we have now.

2. Increased public financing of higher education in the form of expanded Pell Grants, low/no interest student loans, and tough educational standards.

3. Single payor healthcare, which would eliminate the mountains of paperwork required for each payor now...Thus healthcare providers could reduce costs and spend more time with actual patient care.

4. Reinstating "certificates of need" before permitting the expansion/ building of hospials. Unused beds and unused capacity are some of the biggest costs in healthcare.

5. A realistic minimum wage indexed to inflation.

There are solutions, but our Congress (the best money can buy) doesn't seem interested in doing the right thing...Only the politically expedient thing.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by winston churchi
What a funny statment to make. Blaming republicans for saying 'its your fault' - do you find the humor in what you wrote???

All republicans do is generalize about democrats.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Yeah, but when many jobs don't even pay a living wage and provide no healthcare benefits, you're better off going on the dole.

So, how do we resolve the problem?

1. A public education system geared towards teaching our children to think and reason effectively rather than the memorize-regurgitate-forget system we have now.

2. Increased public financing of higher education in the form of expanded Pell Grants, low/no interest student loans, and tough educational standards.

3. Single payor healthcare, which would eliminate the mountains of paperwork required for each payor now...Thus healthcare providers could reduce costs and spend more time with actual patient care.

4. Reinstating "certificates of need" before permitting the expansion/ building of hospials. Unused beds and unused capacity are some of the biggest costs in healthcare.

5. A realistic minimum wage indexed to inflation.

There are solutions, but our Congress (the best money can buy) doesn't seem interested in doing the right thing...Only the politically expedient thing.

1. I agree, a better educational system would be great. That's why I favor school choice, vouchers, and charter schools - to keep the educational system on its toes.

2. I would agree with this in principle, wspecially tougher academic standards.

3. Single payor healthcare sounds like socialized health care to me. You want a quick way to totally screw up medical care in America, turn it over to the government. And if you think socialized health care will reduce paperwork, you are way off base. I work in the gov't, I see paperword all day long. I had to chase down $1.00 yesterday - it took five sheets of paper, a fax, a phone call, and 10 minutes on the computer.
I strongly support minimizing health insurance requirements. In fact, I would love to be able to pay cash at the doctor's office - something that is starting to take hold again.

4. I don't know what these are... but I don't really understand how an empth bed costs money.

5. A realistic minimum wage would drive up unemployment and make minimum wage jobs more scarce. It would hurt, rather than help, those who need minimum wage jobs - entry-level workers especially.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Hobbit
While the benifits of a Socialist society are obvious, I'll pass. I mean, sure, under socialism, you're guaranteed ample food and a decent education, but you go all the way through life knowing you'll never have anything more. Capitalism makes it much easier for you to achieve world dominat...I mean...success. That's the word, success.

:dev1:

Cute.

The fundamental problem with Socialism as an economic system is that it contradicts human nature. The first thing learn in most econ classes is the definition of economics which is the study of how poeple make choices about the unlimited wants they have given the limited amount of resources they have.

Socialism does not take into acount unlimited wants. The gov't tells you how much is enough. Socialism does not allow one to realize their full potential because, based on human nature again, people will seek ways to fill there unlimited wants through a job, or better performance, or inovation. Seeing that they can not accomplish this in a socialistic society they will not achieve or do better simply because it's not worth it. There is nothing to be gained. Capitalism rewards innovation and is much more compatible with human nature. Its only limitation factor is your mind. Human nature is not to seek out domination, it is to look our for number one.

This ties back in to my comment on Rand's "Atlas Shrugged," about the problems created in a society where the individual as no claim to themselves but everybody else does have a claim to you. An unearned on at that.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by Bern80
The first thing learn in most econ classes is the definition of economics which is the study of how poeple make choices about the unlimited wants they have given the limited amount of resources they have.

what an unusually long winded definition for selfishness.

pretty much sums it up, ya think?

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
what an unusually long winded definition for selfishness.

pretty much sums it up, ya think?

I wouldn't say selfishness so much as looking out for one's interests, and the interests of his/her dependents.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Yeah, but when many jobs don't even pay a living wage and provide no healthcare benefits, you're better off going on the dole.

So, how do we resolve the problem?

1. A public education system geared towards teaching our children to think and reason effectively rather than the memorize-regurgitate-forget system we have now.

No, People become teachers for a percentage of profit from the successful who learn. It is a McDonalds example. No tax and teach BS necessary. AND it requires people to make an effort.

2. Increased public financing of higher education in the form of expanded Pell Grants, low/no interest student loans, and tough educational standards.

-Just made that obsolete....see above.

3. Single payor healthcare, which would eliminate the mountains of paperwork required for each payor now...Thus healthcare providers could reduce costs and spend more time with actual patient care.

No, Again, same example as above you have part of the cirriculum as people becoming skilled in medicine through herbal remidies and alternative practices like acupuncture, acupressure and let people become medical professionals. The by product is that citizens will also learn how to become their own herbalists and general practicioners, surgery experts and so on. The only thing they will then need are a few medicines that are chemically produced, or a few specialized services/medical equipment which would only leave a decimal percentage of the cost you see today. This would be easilly covered by the responsible who need it by their income. No tax or socialization needed.

4. Reinstating "certificates of need" before permitting the expansion/ building of hospials. Unused beds and unused capacity are some of the biggest costs in healthcare.

-Just took care of that, see above.

5. A realistic minimum wage indexed to inflation.

No way. If you want to match inflation, get fiat money out of the system and put a money system back into play on a gold standard. It worked fine until then.

There are solutions, but our Congress (the best money can buy) doesn't seem interested in doing the right thing...Only the politically expedient thing.

-Because socialists like you keep throwing your garbage socialism that is economically destructive down our throats and corrupting the system. -again, as illustrated above.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Yeah, but when many jobs don't even pay a living wage and provide no healthcare benefits, you're better off going on the dole.

So, how do we resolve the problem?

1. A public education system geared towards teaching our children to think and reason effectively rather than the memorize-regurgitate-forget system we have now.

2. Increased public financing of higher education in the form of expanded Pell Grants, low/no interest student loans, and tough educational standards.

3. Single payor healthcare, which would eliminate the mountains of paperwork required for each payor now...Thus healthcare providers could reduce costs and spend more time with actual patient care.

4. Reinstating "certificates of need" before permitting the expansion/ building of hospials. Unused beds and unused capacity are some of the biggest costs in healthcare.

5. A realistic minimum wage indexed to inflation.

There are solutions, but our Congress (the best money can buy) doesn't seem interested in doing the right thing...Only the politically expedient thing.

That's just not the case nor should it ever be. The fact that people have the choice to work diligently and sometimes at more than one job versus sitting there doing nothing while receiving money from the government is essentially the problem. There should be no money from the government.

The fundamental flaw highlighted by the above examples is that anyone in society owes something to others.

Public education is not meant to ensure that all people have all knowledge. There are billions of dollars spent now and yet those who've been able to attend public schools are failing to do the simplest thing- like read. My 3 year old knows more than some high school graduates. Making education free didn't solve the problem of laziness, the path of least resistence or cultural problems preventing education. Expanding education or even reformatting it won't work either. People have to want to and need to learn- or starve. Take away the consequence and what compels the choice for hard work and diligence??

And why should I pay for someone elses child to go to college? Why shouldn't I be able to save my money so that my son can go to the best college I can afford. There are loans out there and state schools (hey, I went to one) but my hope is that my son will be able to go to a better school than I and exceed my lot in life. Taking my money away in the form of taxes so that some unemployed or underemployed person's children can go to the local school is only going to economically reduce the my son's ability to go to a good school.

I couldn't care less if everyone in this country has health insurance or healthcare. If I am able to earn money and the governments cannot take it away from me in the form of taxes, it is not changing other people's abiltiy to get either. That's their economic problem. Taking away my money for whatever I wanted to spend it on and giving it to others is inequitable.

#4 I really don't see as relevant.

As for minimum wage- I do not believe the government has any right to tell an employer what they can and cannot pay. There is no possible excuse or reason for it. They don't tell the employees that they have to work so how can they have the power to tell the employers what they have to pay. Makes no sense.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
what an unusually long winded definition for selfishness.

pretty much sums it up, ya think?

It's a statement of fact more than anything. Do you have limited wants DK? I doubt it, but answer anyway. It is no way selfish of me to do what i can to make myself happy, however reasonably i may choose to define that. Again, I am not responsible for your happiness in life. You are.