Unacceptable Redistribution of Wealth

[Oddball]

While we argue additional tax cuts for the wealthy and the merits of "trickle down" economics a strange thing has happened. The standard of living for working americans has fallen. We make less money than we did a decade ago while the rich have gotten richer

Census: We’re poorer - THE WEEK

The Census Bureau’s annual report on income is out, and “there’s no good news” in it, said Felix Salmon in Reuters, unless you’re “the kind of person who worries about inflation.” Median household income has fallen 3.6 percent, from $52,153 in 2007 to $50,303 in 2008—a loss of “real money.” And 2.5 million more people are living in poverty, including 19 percent of kids under 18. That’s “unconscionable, in the richest country in the world.”

The “big news” from the Census report isn’t the drop in income since 2007, said David Leonhardt in The New York Times. It’s that we’re earning less than a decade ago—median household income in 1998 was $51,295, in today’s dollars. There hasn’t been such a lost decade in 40 years of Census tracking, and probably not since the 1930s. “What’s going on here?” Very slow growth, and the fact that “much of the bounty from our growth” has gone to the very rich.

Bullshit premise, which presumes that all the wealth earned by everyone belongs to Big Daddy Big Gubmint first, which only "allows" us to keep what we end up with.

 

[Oddball]

Top 10% of our nation own more wealth than the bottom 90%.

And it gets worse every year. The AVERAGE CEO now makes about 435 times more than the average worker.

Then start a business and become the CEO, rather than living the lie that working at a J.O.B. provided by someone else is the way to earn your way in the world.

Problem solved.

 

[Liability]

Top 10% of our nation own more wealth than the bottom 90%.

And it gets worse every year. The AVERAGE CEO now makes about 435 times more than the average worker.

Then start a business and become the CEO, rather than living the lie that working at a J.O.B. provided by someone else is the way to earn your way in the world.

Problem solved.

I don't quite get why the libbies reject that kind of advice. I personally am not satisfied with my income level. I work for me, so I can't go to the boss and ask for a raise. If I want more money, I either have to work more hours or start up some other business.

I have absolutely nothing to gripe about, therefore, except the undue acquisition by the government of my wealth. Even that doesn't change the basic premise. If I want "more," it's on me to go out and seize the day.

Carpe diem, baby!

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

If I were to knock on the door of one of these Marxist proponents, and proceed to take whatever money they had by force, they would attempt to do me bodily harm to prevent that from happening, or they would call the police to come subdue me, because I was taking something that didn't rightfully belong to me. Amazing that they don't want to admit to such, when it comes to them wanting to use the federal government in such a manner.

 

[Modbert]

If I were to knock on the door of one of these Marxist proponents, and proceed to take whatever money they had by force, they would attempt to do me bodily harm to prevent that from happening, or they would call the police to come subdue me, because I was taking something that didn't rightfully belong to me. Amazing that they don't want to admit to such, when it comes to them wanting to use the federal government in such a manner.

Because we all know that it's only those on the Left that are using the Federal Government to take people's money.

Never mind the fact that the Republicans had just spent "like drunken sailors" as it was described earlier for six years.

You seriously don't get it, do you?

Both parties have the same intention, just different results and different ways of going about it.

 

[Modbert]

Then start a business and become the CEO, rather than living the lie that working at a J.O.B. provided by someone else is the way to earn your way in the world.

Problem solved.

I was only stating a fact, no need to be pissy about it. I never called working at a job provided by someone else is a lie to earn your way in the world. I would say your dishonest, but that would just be repeating myself.

 

[alan1]

What I find interesting about all of the little graphs posted by right-wingers, and the clever little charts is this. None of them represent the tax burden, no, not at all. They all talk about only the federal income tax. There is no inclusion of sales, gas, utility, property, toll-road taxes, or fees, or FICA taxes only on the first hundred thousand earned.

There is a good reason for that, of course. It is, the only tax that the truly wealthy pay more of as a percent of income, than the poor. All these people who are poor, end up paying all these other taxes, which disproportionately affect a person earning 20 grand a year. All these taxes to someone earning 300,000 dollars a year, are a pittance. They attack the one tax they pay more of, the one tax that properly assesses them greater responsibility for the much, much greater share of the commons that they use, to make their money.

A flat tax, or a national income tax, would not only hurt the economy terribly, taking money directly from the pockets of the poor and middle class. But they would finally achieve a status where the filthy richest of us, will actually pay less in taxes than a burger flipper in a fast-food restaurant.

And of these facts, right-wingers stay blissfully unaware. The next time someone bloviates around you, say, hey, how about we get rid of all regressive taxes, that way we can all make some headway. At least drop the stupid cap, so millionaire earners will at last pay as much as the middle, and upper middle class, for FICA/SS taxes. That is the least they could do.

How about we get rid of SS taxes altogether, and let me keep that 7.5% of my income? Oh wait, my employer matches it. Make that 15% more income for me.

Now, lets get to your burger flipper tax payer as it pertains to a flat tax or national sales tax compared to the burger flippers manager. Lets assume a 10% sales tax.
Joe burger flipper goes to the grocery store and spends $40 on groceries, he buys beans and chicken, his tax is $4.
Joe burger flippers manager makes a lot more money, so he goes to the grocery store and spends $100 buying steak and sushi, his tax is $10.
Which one paid more tax?
Now, lets look at it from a flat income tax point of view. Again, lets assume a flat income tax of 10%.
Joe burger flipper makes $18,000 a year, at a 10% flat tax rate he pays $1,800 of income tax.
Joe burger flippers manager makes a lot more money. He makes $50,000 a year. At a flat income tax rate of 10%, he pays $5,000 of income tax.
Which one paid more tax?

Hey, I've worked as Joe Burger-flippers manager, and you are suffering under a delusion when you say they make a lot more money. We made a bit more, an incriment more, mostly by working more hours, and earning Chinese overtime, half time for hours over forty, a base wage, and your half time was calculated by dividing total hours into the base, then dividing that figure in half. The more you worked, the less you made.

The flat tax, just like the national sales tax idea, is just the final straw in the strategy of finally getting the poor to pay, way, way, way more in overall taxes, than the rich. Not only that, but it would hurt the economy.

I'm happy with the tax system now, save the rich paying far too little, and allowing our system of government to have an 18 percent unemployment rate. The truth is, an economy has to be socialized only to the extent of its failure. And since our private system, our unregulated, lightly taxed rich system, has failed so miserably, it is time we pull back from the brink, take the wealthy, the more they make, the more we take, and put people back to work. As our private economy improves, we pull back on the taxes, at least after we pay down the debt, that has accrued due to the money flowing into the accounts of the richest people in the planet, instead of the tax coffers that would have kept us afloat.

Most estimate the flat tax to have to be at least 18 percent, so I suspect the reality is it will have to be 25 percent. The truth is, people who make less than a hundred grand will just end up paying more, and the rich will end up paying less.

You don't understand percentages, do you?

 

[Oddball]

Then start a business and become the CEO, rather than living the lie that working at a J.O.B. provided by someone else is the way to earn your way in the world.

Problem solved.

I was only stating a fact, no need to be pissy about it. I never called working at a job provided by someone else is a lie to earn your way in the world. I would say your dishonest, but that would just be repeating myself.

Who's being dishonest here??

I'm not the one sniveling about how much rich people make. In fact, I'm pointing out to you the best way to become one of them.

But I guess that would then make you one of those "top 5%-ers" that you're bitching about.

Interesting internal dilemma, ain't it??

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

If I were to knock on the door of one of these Marxist proponents, and proceed to take whatever money they had by force, they would attempt to do me bodily harm to prevent that from happening, or they would call the police to come subdue me, because I was taking something that didn't rightfully belong to me. Amazing that they don't want to admit to such, when it comes to them wanting to use the federal government in such a manner.

Because we all know that it's only those on the Left that are using the Federal Government to take people's money.

Never mind the fact that the Republicans had just spent "like drunken sailors" as it was described earlier for six years.

You seriously don't get it, do you?

Both parties have the same intention, just different results and different ways of going about it.

Yes, I get it. I get the fact that you and many others here seem to think you have a right to other peoples money.

How you can gripe about drunken spending while complaining about CEO spending and wanting the feds to take more money from people you think should give more, is ugly irony to me.

I get personal responsibility and accountability. You don't appear to.

 

[Oddball]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BasicGreatGuy again.

 

[alan1]

But you'll notice the things you really need the most, the commons if you like, are more expensive than ever.

And you've exemplified the real problem. While people have focused on this small upside, what you don't realize is, there are increasingly less people out there to buy the stuff. It's all crashing down around us, in case you've not noticed.

We're trying to pump up the tire of our economy again, and it's had so many holes punched into it with free-trade agreements, that each pump just results in the air coursing through it, and leaking right out to one of our many benefactor countries, in the form of our jobs. Only they do them so cheaply, that even they only benefit minimally.

Yes, we could've instead, sent our great system, our working economy out to the world. Instead, the rich chose to cripple anyone who didn't make more than a few hundred thousand a year, people who worked for a living. As it turns out, only the top few percent have gained. And that is to be expected, since they run everything, and since they are the talking heads that right-wingers are repeating their slogans from.

Seriously, when Rush limbauagh says "we" or "our" do you really think you are included? Perhaps in your mind you include yourself. That is the ploy at use here. They teach you to use these pronouns in management courses, for just this reason. People love to be included. But in truth, you are not, and you still reapeat their slogans right-wingers, and help them bring our destruction by agreeing with all their silly arguments, like Unions making too much, asking for too much, or being filled with thugs.

Wake up. The dystopia is knocking at the door, and you are about to let it in.

Sorry, I'm not buying your argument.
I am the product of a poor family. Mom and dad never had a large income, ever. They barely managed to keep enough food on the table for us 4 kids when I was young. They didn't put a single one of us through college because they couldn't afford it. Yet 3 of us ended up with college degrees that we earned while working and going to school at the same time. (Only 3 of us, because one of my sisters died at the young age of 26) Even though mom and dad never earned a lot in their lifetime, they did save and invest. Their net worth is well over a million dollars. Most of it accumulated in the last 20 years. They didn't do that because some "rich" person held them back or propelled them forward. Me, my sister and my brother are all solidly upper middle class. We didn't become that way because of some government program or because some "rich person" helped us out or payed more taxes. We did it because we worked at it. In the last 5 years I've more than doubled my income while working for somebody else. I'll double it again in the next 5 years. I crossed the line from being raised in a poor family to raising my children in a middle class family, that doesn't happen in too many countries, but it happens here in the USA. Funny how "the rich" didn't cripple me, isn't it?

P.S.
I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh.

The truth is, what you've posted is more like a ship passing, unaware of another ship, (my post) never interacting.

Good for you, and your family. What you've not addressed is the changing conditions of the last 40 years, and the affect, or possible affects it would have on a similar family.

I also appreciate your "speculation" of your eventual gains. I think many people anticipate wealth, or continued wealth, that never comes to fruition.

Also, one example does not a statistic make. It's like the "welfare queen" example in Reagan's years. He used it to smear the whole system, when in fact, it is an entirely false idea that they were all crack-whores. It is entirely false too, that every person who comes from a poor background, will end up getting through college, and on to a good job.

I'd also be interested in knowing what your idea of poor, and rich are, and where the middle class is for you.

A quote from Pefectly legal below.

_____________

America Has 134 Million Taxpaying Households

Arranged by income, on a ladder with 100 rungs, each rung would have about 1.3 million taxpayers.

The average income of the top 10 percent of American taxpayers rose 88.6 percent from 1970 to 2000, from $119,249 to $224,877 (adjusted for inflation).

This group’s share of income grew from 1970 to 2000 from 33 percent, to 48 percent.

The average income of the rest, the bottom 90 percent of earning households, stagnated over the last three decades, slipping from $27,060 in 1970 to $27,035 in 2000.

In this group, average incomes share of the national income fell from 67 percent to 52 percent.

Perfectly Legal, chart on p. 31

These charts show only average incomes, not income shares.

Also, since 2000, the shares and income trends for the top few percent, as well as wealth, have skyrocketed to unprecidented levels, even those before the Great Depression. And income disparity, as well as loans on the margin, were the two largest factors in brining on the last, and this depression.

Like it or not, outside of your own anecdotal world, things have gotten worse, and the system's rules from which we all play our little games of life, is rigged for the very rich. Some can make it--Kudos. But most will have a harder, and harder, and harder time, as that is the direction our poorly chosen leaders have led us, to our own destruction.

And like I said, your invented life in the future, and reality may at some point diverge. I suspect many who thought things were going to be cherry have ended up getting screwed, and are now among the ranks of the unemployed.

I lived through the last 40 years, plus some.
Why is my success different than yours?
I suspect it wasn't because I was whining about fairness.

 

[Modbert]

Who's being dishonest here??

I'm not the one sniveling about how much rich people make. In fact, I'm pointing out to you the best way to become one of them.

But I guess that would then make you one of those "top 5%-ers" that you're bitching about.

Interesting internal dilemma, ain't it??

I didn't realize stating a fact was "sniveling." I love your baseless accusations and word usage.

I don't think you realize, I don't mind if people are rich. I really don't. However, this country is going to turn into a 3rd world country when the top 10% have 95%+ of the concentration of wealth. There will be no longer a middle class, there will only be a upper class and middle class just like in 3rd world countries.

 

[Modbert]

Yes, I get it. I get the fact that you and many others here seem to think you have a right to other peoples money.

How you can gripe about drunken spending while complaining about CEO spending and wanting the feds to take more money from people you think should give more, is ugly irony to me.

I get personal responsibility and accountability. You don't appear to.

I never said I have a right to other peoples money. Now if you're going to debate this, at least debate this honestly and not making baseless statements like that.

I get personal responsibility and accountability. I have always had both my entire life. I am to be judged on my actions. Look at my post above, that's all I'm saying.

However, before you bitch about what you think I get or don't get, realize that you don't know me. Therefore you cannot judge me personally. I'm debating the issue, you're throwing out personal insults.

 

[alan1]

What I find interesting about all of the little graphs posted by right-wingers, and the clever little charts is this. None of them represent the tax burden, no, not at all. They all talk about only the federal income tax. There is no inclusion of sales, gas, utility, property, toll-road taxes, or fees, or FICA taxes only on the first hundred thousand earned.

There is a good reason for that, of course. It is, the only tax that the truly wealthy pay more of as a percent of income, than the poor. All these people who are poor, end up paying all these other taxes, which disproportionately affect a person earning 20 grand a year. All these taxes to someone earning 300,000 dollars a year, are a pittance. They attack the one tax they pay more of, the one tax that properly assesses them greater responsibility for the much, much greater share of the commons that they use, to make their money.

A flat tax, or a national income tax, would not only hurt the economy terribly, taking money directly from the pockets of the poor and middle class. But they would finally achieve a status where the filthy richest of us, will actually pay less in taxes than a burger flipper in a fast-food restaurant.

And of these facts, right-wingers stay blissfully unaware. The next time someone bloviates around you, say, hey, how about we get rid of all regressive taxes, that way we can all make some headway. At least drop the stupid cap, so millionaire earners will at last pay as much as the middle, and upper middle class, for FICA/SS taxes. That is the least they could do.

How about we get rid of SS taxes altogether, and let me keep that 7.5% of my income? Oh wait, my employer matches it. Make that 15% more income for me.

Now, lets get to your burger flipper tax payer as it pertains to a flat tax or national sales tax compared to the burger flippers manager. Lets assume a 10% sales tax.
Joe burger flipper goes to the grocery store and spends $40 on groceries, he buys beans and chicken, his tax is $4.
Joe burger flippers manager makes a lot more money, so he goes to the grocery store and spends $100 buying steak and sushi, his tax is $10.
Which one paid more tax?
Now, lets look at it from a flat income tax point of view. Again, lets assume a flat income tax of 10%.
Joe burger flipper makes $18,000 a year, at a 10% flat tax rate he pays $1,800 of income tax.
Joe burger flippers manager makes a lot more money. He makes $50,000 a year. At a flat income tax rate of 10%, he pays $5,000 of income tax.
Which one paid more tax?

We have something in this state called "emissions". Every few years we have to take our cars down and pay to have the emissions checked. If we fail, we have to pay up to $1000 to have our cars fixed, and we must go to the places approved by the state to fix our car. The rich, can afford new cars and not only don't have to pay that $1000, but in many cases they skip the test completely, being able to afford the hybrids, which also give them a tax break not given to those of us that can't afford a new car every year.

The top 10% in this country own more wealth than the bottom 90%, yet they sure as heck don't pay 90% of the taxes.

Wealth and income are two different things. Poor people don't understand the difference, and they remain poor because of it.

 

[Oddball]

Who's being dishonest here??

I'm not the one sniveling about how much rich people make. In fact, I'm pointing out to you the best way to become one of them.

But I guess that would then make you one of those "top 5%-ers" that you're bitching about.

Interesting internal dilemma, ain't it??

I didn't realize stating a fact was "sniveling." I love your baseless accusations and word usage.

I don't think you realize, I don't mind if people are rich. I really don't. However, this country is going to turn into a 3rd world country when the top 10% have 95%+ of the concentration of wealth. There will be no longer a middle class, there will only be a upper class and middle class just like in 3rd world countries.

I've been listening to that garbage since I was your age, and America is not yet one of those 3rd world countries.....Not even close.

Time to quit pretending that history began on the day you were born.

 

[alan1]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BasicGreatGuy again.

If you were a cool dude, it would say Mountainman, not BasicGreatGuy.

 

[Modbert]

I've been listening to that garbage since I was your age, and America is not yet one of those 3rd world countries.....Not even close.

Time to quit pretending that history began on the day you were born.

Again, another baseless personal insult. Can you and Basic make ONE post without trying to personally insult me? Do you feel it makes your case so much better by doing so? Or does it just make you feel all warm inside?

The Concentration of Wealth was nowhere near the levels it was when you were my age. Unless you have evidence to state otherwise?

 

[rightwinger]

If I were to knock on the door of one of these Marxist proponents, and proceed to take whatever money they had by force, they would attempt to do me bodily harm to prevent that from happening, or they would call the police to come subdue me, because I was taking something that didn't rightfully belong to me. Amazing that they don't want to admit to such, when it comes to them wanting to use the federal government in such a manner.

You are being overly dramatic
Nobody is talking about the confiscation of wealth. Only that legislation enacted in the last eight years have lead to a redistribution of wealth to the ultra-wealthy. We need to even the playing field to allow more of that wealth to remain with the working class whos has seen their earning power eroded

 

[alan1]

If I were to knock on the door of one of these Marxist proponents, and proceed to take whatever money they had by force, they would attempt to do me bodily harm to prevent that from happening, or they would call the police to come subdue me, because I was taking something that didn't rightfully belong to me. Amazing that they don't want to admit to such, when it comes to them wanting to use the federal government in such a manner.

You are being overly dramatic
Nobody is talking about the confiscation of wealth. Only that legislation enacted in the last eight years have lead to a redistribution of wealth to the ultra-wealthy. We need to even the playing field to allow more of that wealth to remain with the working class whos has seen their earning power eroded

Taxation isn't the right tool.
No government has ever taxed the populace into wealth.

 

[Modbert]

Taxation isn't the right tool.
No government has ever taxed the populace into wealth.

That's right, however this Government has untaxed a certain group into wealth. Not only during the Bush Administration were the rich paying near record lows, but they also had all those nice tax loopholes that being rich they can pay for Accountants to figure out. Plus, they can have a bunch of halfass write-offs, which will result in them either paying nothing, paying a little amount, or even getting something back.