Ukraine's Neo-Nazis Are the Most Dangerous in Europe

[Camp]

Your Lew Rockwell essay does not debunk any of the evidence I posted. It doesn't even address the charges and factual data including in the links I provided. Doesn't even mention them. Your link is a commentary opinion essay that uses the MH17 as a conduit and lead in to wide ranging conspiracy theories.

It was not my intention to post a link, just a statement of fact.

This from Dr, Michael S Rozeff, who has reported extensively on Ukraine:
All sorts of officials accuse Russia of aggression in Ukraine. Is this true? It is not. It is fiction. It is a big lie. It is a specious claim, an absurd claim, a ridiculous claim, an unreal claim. Russia and Russians have been involved in certain respects in Ukraine, but by no sensible stretch of the imagination can such involvements be termed aggression. If there were an actual war aggression, it could not be hidden because the scope of a typical war aggression is very large. The photographic evidence for it would be overwhelming. No such evidence has been provided by Russia’s accusers. Even more importantly, it would have to be shown that the attack was an unprovoked offensive attack, and not a defensive operation. This too has not been proven by Russia’s accusers.

My concern here is the fiction being propagated. It borders on madness. It plays into the hands of the worst kinds of warmongers. It blinds everyone concerned. It is irrational. It establishes an aura of public lies and myths that results in great mischief and worse. It is producing awful results that can become far worse. The lie happens to revolve around demonizing Russia but my purpose is not to choose sides in the Ukrainian-Russian problems but to keep the U.S. out of the matter. It is to defang the lie.

You claimed that your link debunked the evidence of Russian separatist and Russian involvement in the shoot down of MH 17 over Ukraine. It did no such thing and the article by Roseff from Rockwell is a commentary, not a statement of fact. Rosseff is a well known libertarian socialist who promotes panarchism and contributes essays for libertarian publications. He is also popular in the Russian propaganda network.He is an economics writer, so you claim that he has a history of covering the Russian invasion of Ukraine is false.
Here is another sample of his work.

russia-insider.com/en/2015/02/14/3490

I have posted clear evidence that is used by those who accuse Russia of invading Ukraine and being responsible for the shoot down of MH 17. Those who choose to cheer for Putin and spew hate and false accusations at the US, NATO, Ukraine and others claim the accusations made by these entities are false, but are unable to disprove the evidence. Sorry, but I view your attempt at "debunking" the evidence I provided as an old trick. List links that are meaningless to the topic and do so with the knowledge that most people will not check out the link. They will just read the comment about debunking and assume the link must do so. Very dishonest in my opinion.

There has been no debunking of the evidence in the links I provided that are in post #34 on this page and just a few post back from this one.

You are wrong on all counts, but that won't stop you. To think the Russians had something to do with the downing of MH17, is not to think. The downing was a clear false flag action, but you can't see the truth.

Here...read Eric Zuesse...he has much to inform you of.

The American Government’s Biggest Lie Now Is About Ukraine
Posted on March 16, 2015 by Eric Zuesse.
Eric Zuesse

The American Government’s biggest lie in 2002-2003 was about Saddam Hussein and Iraq. We’ve already seen what that lie produced. It cost the U.S. more than $3 trillion, produced ISIS, and caused death and destruction in Iraq that make Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship look benign by comparison. Are Americans still fooling themselves about that? (Some are; but most are not.)

The American Government’s biggest lie in 2014-2015 is instead about Vladimir Putin and Ukraine — and it’s even worse, and far more dangerous, because this one can very possibly lead to a nuclear war, one with Russia that’s totally unnecessary for America’s national-security, and that actually places all of our nation’s security at risk, for the shameful reasons of aristocrats (“oligarchs”) in both the U.S. and Ukraine — not for any real reasons of the American people, at all.

But, that’s where we are heading, nonetheless, because America’s aristocrats overwhelmingly want it (as will be shown here).

Why do you side with aristocracy, which has done nothing but damage for decades?

Russian involvement may have gone no further than trusting the separatist with possession and control of an anti aircraft battery capable of shooting down a commercial airliners. One of the links I provided gives specific details about the recorded conversation between the separatist about the shoot down. A separatist leader admitted knowledge of a separatist battalion having a BUK system. He admitted it on video to journalist after the shoot down. He admitted it came from Russia. I provide links to this kind of data and you provide links to political opinion commentaries. I provide detailed data with photographic proof of the BUK moving from Russia to Ukraine and back to Russia and your answer is to post a commentary that completely ignores the evidence as if it doesn't exist. Did you even look at the Bellingcat Report?
bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/11/08/origin-of-the-separatists-buk-a-bellingcat-investigation/
Do you see the difference between a detailed report and a commentary?

 

[ESay]

All the US Gov has to do is prove it. Since it is spying on everyone, why can't it show proof?

I have asked myself about it several times. The only answer which I can offer to you is that the US government decided not to publish its data until a final report of the Dutchmen. Why? I don’t know. Maybe there are plans to escalate anti-Russian rhetoric and actions in autumn when a Dutch report is due to be published.

Why don’t you answer my questions about the Russian proof? Have you decided to ignore them completely?

They want war and are doing all they can to provoke Russia.

War with Russia? What for?

 

[gipper]

They want war and are doing all they can to provoke Russia.

War with Russia? What for?[/QUOTE]

Simple.

To appease the banksters, the military industrial complex, and the oligarchy.

War is the health of the STATE!!! Always has been and always will be.

 

[bendog]

They want war and are doing all they can to provoke Russia.

War with Russia? What for?[/QUOTE]

Simple.

To appease the banksters, the military industrial complex, and the oligarchy.

War is the health of the STATE!!! Always has been and always will be.

You sound like the Russian media. LOL

We're coming to get you, of course we are.

 

[ESay]

gipper
Okay, I will think that by refusing to answer my questions about Russians, you have admitted that their proof is insignificant and ridiculous.

To appease the banksters, the military industrial complex, and the oligarchy.
War is the health of the STATE!!! Always has been and always will be.

Do you think that the bankers, oligarchs and so on are completely stupid? They want to wage a war with a country having a nuclear weapon and transcontinental missiles? Please, don’t tell me that they care only about money. I think they are acutely aware that money doesn’t stop radiation.

 

[bendog]

I'm a bit curious as to the source of their propaganda, as oligarchs is a term one more commonly sees applied to in Russia. The EU and the US, and even the free market economies in the East, don't have oligarch's per se. We have multi-national corporations It's true that the 1% own most of the stock, but the corporation is itself an entity, with positions on political and economic issues of its own, which are determined by not just the shareholders but also the managers.

 

[B. Kidd]

I'm a bit curious as to the source of their propaganda, as oligarchs is a term one more commonly sees applied to in Russia. The EU and the US, and even the free market economies in the East, don't have oligarch's per se. We have multi-national corporations It's true that the 1% own most of the stock, but the corporation is itself an entity, with positions on political and economic issues of its own, which are determined by not just the shareholders but also the managers.

A recent study disagrees with you.


The US is an oligarchy study concludes - Telegraph

 

[Camp]

I'm a bit curious as to the source of their propaganda, as oligarchs is a term one more commonly sees applied to in Russia. The EU and the US, and even the free market economies in the East, don't have oligarch's per se. We have multi-national corporations It's true that the 1% own most of the stock, but the corporation is itself an entity, with positions on political and economic issues of its own, which are determined by not just the shareholders but also the managers.

Oligarchs are prevalent in Ukraine.

 

[bendog]

I'm a bit curious as to the source of their propaganda, as oligarchs is a term one more commonly sees applied to in Russia. The EU and the US, and even the free market economies in the East, don't have oligarch's per se. We have multi-national corporations It's true that the 1% own most of the stock, but the corporation is itself an entity, with positions on political and economic issues of its own, which are determined by not just the shareholders but also the managers.

Oligarchs are prevalent in Ukraine.

Yeah, but as I read the posts, they were referencing oligarchs in the West. And, see B.Kidd's post.

It's true that US policy is more aligned for the top 1%, and income inequality is at its highest since before the progressivism of the 1890s, but in an oligarchy the only economic redress is a revolution.

 

[ESay]

The commander of Prizrak Militia Brigade has claimed there is no fascism in Ukraine. According to Mozgovoy there are speculations about it.
“My friends, there is no fascism. The antifascist movement is ... It is like computers – there is a virus and there is an antivirus. A virus is created by that one who creates an antivirus. It is all business, it is only business. And nothing more. You can provoke a wave and then you can provoke another wave in order to confront the former, and you earn money in both cases.”

click (in Russian)

 

[gipper]

War is coming....many experts are predicting it...

Paul Craig Roberts – former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under President Reagan, former editor of the Wall Street Journal, listed by Who’s Who in America as one of the 1,000 most influential political thinkers in the world, PhD economist – wrote an article about the build up of hostilities between the U.S. and Russia titled, simply: “War Is Coming”.

Similarly, Ronald Reagan’s head of the Office of Management and Budget – David Stockman – is posting pieces warning of the dispute between the U.S. and Russia leading to World War 3.

Trend forecaster Gerald Celente – who has been making some accurate financial and geopolitical predictions for decades – says WW3 will start soon.

Investment fund manager and adviser Martin Armstrong has charted the “cycles of war” back to 600 BC … and says that we’ll have major wars between now and 2020. He has written pieces recently entitled, “Why We will Go to War with Russia“, and another one saying, “Prepare for World War III“.

Investment adviser Larry Edelson – who has long studied the “cycles of war” – wrote last month:

This year … we will also be hit by another ramping up of the related war cycles.

All part and parcel of the rising war cycles that I’ve been warning you about, conditions that will not abate until at least the year 2020.

Former Goldman Sachs technical analyst Charles Nenner – who has made some big accurate calls, and counts major hedge funds, banks, brokerage houses, and high net worth individuals as clients – says there will be “a major war”, which will drive the Dow to 5,000.

Veteran investor adviser James Dines forecast a war as epochal as World Wars I and II, starting in the Middle East.

Why We re Drifting Towards World War 3 Washington s Blog

Indeed, top economists say that war is destroying our economy.

But war is great for the bankers and the defense contractors. And – as discussed above – governments are desperate for war.

So it’s up to us – the people – to stop wider war.

 

[gipper]

gipper
Okay, I will think that by refusing to answer my questions about Russians, you have admitted that their proof is insignificant and ridiculous.

To appease the banksters, the military industrial complex, and the oligarchy.
War is the health of the STATE!!! Always has been and always will be.

Do you think that the bankers, oligarchs and so on are completely stupid? They want to wage a war with a country having a nuclear weapon and transcontinental missiles? Please, don’t tell me that they care only about money. I think they are acutely aware that money doesn’t stop radiation.

Really?

Lets do a little review. After the fall of the USSR, NATO and the US promised not to expand NATO to the borders of Russia, but they did anyway. We have bases and nuclear weapons ringing Russia. The US is sending military hardware and personnel to many former Soviet states and war gaming on Russia's border. Obama places economic sanctions on Russia...an act of war. The US and NATO institute a coup in Ukraine installing a regime with Nazi supporters. The new Ukraine leader declares war on Russia. Thousands are dead and tensions are increasing. The rhetoric of our political class is heated...i.e. Mrs. Clinton calling Putin Hitler, Obama and Kerry condemning Russia and Putin...making many unproven accusations.

And you think the oligarchs and banksters are too smart to start WWIII. You might learn from history.

It gets worse...
In Poland and the Baltic states Washington and NATO lies about a pending Russian invasion are being used to justify provocative war games on Russia’s borders and to build up US forces in NATO military bases on Russia’s borders.

We have crazed US generals on national television calling for “killing Russians.”

The EU leadership has agreed to launch a propaganda war against Russia, broadcasting Washington’s lies inside Russia in an effort to undermine the Russian people’s support of their government.

All of this is being done in order to coerce Russia into handing over Crimea and its Black Sea naval base to Washington and accepting vassalage under Washington’s suzerainty.

If Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad, and the Taliban would not fold to Washington’s threats, why do the fools in Washington think Putin, who holds in his hands the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, will fold?

European governments, apparently, are incapable of any thought. Washington has set London and the capitals of every European country, as well as every American city, for destruction by Russian nuclear weapons. The stupid Europeans rush to destroy themselves in service to their Washington master.

Human intelligence has gone missing if after 14 years of US military aggression against eight countries the world does not understand that Washington is lost in arrogance and hubris and imagines itself the ruler of the universe who will tolerate no dissent from its will.

We know that the American, British, and European media are whores well paid to lie for their master. We know that the NATO commander and secretary general, if not the member countries, are lusting for war. We know that the American Dr. Strangeloves in the Pentagon and armaments industry cannot wait to test their ABMs and new weapons systems in which they always place excessive confidence. We know that the prime minister of Britain is a total cipher. But are the chancellor of Germany and the president of France ready for the destruction of their countries and of Europe? If the EU is of such value, why is the very existence of its populations put at risk in order to bow down and accept leadership from an insane Washington whose megalomania will destroy life on earth?
Russia Under Attack LewRockwell.com

 

[Camp]

The commander of Prizrak Militia Brigade has claimed there is no fascism in Ukraine. According to Mozgovoy there are speculations about it.
“My friends, there is no fascism. The antifascist movement is ... It is like computers – there is a virus and there is an antivirus. A virus is created by that one who creates an antivirus. It is all business, it is only business. And nothing more. You can provoke a wave and then you can provoke another wave in order to confront the former, and you earn money in both cases.”

click (in Russian)

The Prizak "Ghost" militia were formed and led by Igor "Stelkov" Girkin, a former (?) Colonel with the Russian FSB and GRU military and intelligence. After the MH-17 shoot down guys like Stelkov were purged from official leadership positions in the separatist militias. The proof of Russian responsibility for the shoot down was tied to these Russian leaders being in visible control of the militia's responsible for atrocities, including the shoot down of MH 17. Ukrainian citizens like Mozgovoy, a cook working in Russia when the separatist were formed were made into fronts and puppets. Over night the separatist leadership went from "former" Russian officers to dunces like Mozgovoy. As Russian control has been greatly reduced and the Mozgovoy type leaders have gained more authority, thuggery and undisciplined behavior by the separatist troops have risen to levels that have caused the population to flee the criminals robbing them of aid supplied by NGO's and Russia, hence, the population that once supported the separatist are now calling them fascist and desperately attempting to flee to Ukraine controlled territory. Fascist is about the worst thing to call politicians or authority figures in Ukraine. To the average citizen the word just means brutal, criminal, totalitarian monster. The statement made by Mozgovoy is being made to the local population in defense of the negativity the militia's are receiving caused by the hardships they are inflicting on the locals.

 

[ESay]

The US and NATO institute a coup in Ukraine installing a regime with Nazi supporters.

It is not the whole truth. Yes, a considerable number of Maidan’s self-defence forces consisted of nationalists (neo-Nazis as you call them). But that doesn’t mean that ultra-nationalist ideas are welcomed by most of the people or that the ultra-nationalists have a great influence on Ukrainian society. Look at the results of the last elections to Verhovna Rada. Freedom Party (Svoboda) couldn’t even get to the parliament.
Also don’t forget that a vast number of the common people supported the overthrow of Yanukovych.

The new Ukraine leader declares war on Russia.

It isn’t true.
The Ukrainian authorities have declared Russia to be an aggressor. But that is a well-known fact.

If Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad, and the Taliban would not fold to Washington’s threats, why do the fools in Washington think Putin, who holds in his hands the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, will fold?

Do you remember the USSR? Where is it now? Did America need any bomb to get rid of it?

The EU leadership has agreed to launch a propaganda war against Russia,

To launch actions to resist Russian propaganda war.

War is coming....many experts are predicting it...

I know that in 1960-s there were also a great number of forecasts about WWIII. And?

Human intelligence has gone missing if after 14 years of US military aggression against eight countries the world does not understand that Washington is lost in arrogance and hubris and imagines itself the ruler of the universe who will tolerate no dissent from its will.

I don’t say that the American rulers are angels. I think quite the opposite is true. But life is a struggle. Subdue or be subdued. Alas.

 

[ESay]

The Prizak "Ghost" militia were formed and led by Igor "Stelkov" Girkin

Never. Battalion (now brigade) Prizrak was founded by Mozgovoy at the very beginning. Mozgovoy and his battalion operate primarily in Luhansk oblast (LNR) while Girkin and his men were in Donetsk oblast (DNR).

the population that once supported the separatist are now calling them fascist

The statement made by Mozgovoy is being made to the local population in defense of the negativity the militia's are receiving caused by the hardships they are inflicting on the locals.

You are wrong. The popularity of militia is huge both in rebel-held areas and government-controlled territories of Donbas.

 

[B. Kidd]

War is coming....many experts are predicting it...

Paul Craig Roberts – former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under President Reagan, former editor of the Wall Street Journal, listed by Who’s Who in America as one of the 1,000 most influential political thinkers in the world, PhD economist – wrote an article about the build up of hostilities between the U.S. and Russia titled, simply: “War Is Coming”.

Similarly, Ronald Reagan’s head of the Office of Management and Budget – David Stockman – is posting pieces warning of the dispute between the U.S. and Russia leading to World War 3.

Trend forecaster Gerald Celente – who has been making some accurate financial and geopolitical predictions for decades – says WW3 will start soon.

Investment fund manager and adviser Martin Armstrong has charted the “cycles of war” back to 600 BC … and says that we’ll have major wars between now and 2020. He has written pieces recently entitled, “Why We will Go to War with Russia“, and another one saying, “Prepare for World War III“.

Investment adviser Larry Edelson – who has long studied the “cycles of war” – wrote last month:

This year … we will also be hit by another ramping up of the related war cycles.

All part and parcel of the rising war cycles that I’ve been warning you about, conditions that will not abate until at least the year 2020.

Former Goldman Sachs technical analyst Charles Nenner – who has made some big accurate calls, and counts major hedge funds, banks, brokerage houses, and high net worth individuals as clients – says there will be “a major war”, which will drive the Dow to 5,000.

Veteran investor adviser James Dines forecast a war as epochal as World Wars I and II, starting in the Middle East.

Why We re Drifting Towards World War 3 Washington s Blog

Indeed, top economists say that war is destroying our economy.

But war is great for the bankers and the defense contractors. And – as discussed above – governments are desperate for war.

So it’s up to us – the people – to stop wider war.

The people, or us, as you put it, have no say in major policy decisions any more; especially geo-political ones. Our Democracy and elections are two wolves and a sheep voting on who gets eaten. If that isn't Oligarchy, then I don't know what is!

 

[barryqwalsh]

Many were shocked when Kiev openly admitted that neo-Nazis are part of the Ukrainian armed forces, that they are controlled by Kiev and that without them "the Russian army" could not be stopped. Most of the Western media have completely ignored this scandalous statement.
According to Western politicians and media there is no real danger of Ukrainian nationalistic extremists taking over power or influencing politics in Ukraine. On the contrary, influential US neo-cons including professional Russophobe Anne Applebaum argues that the West must support Ukrainian nationalism: "Nationalism is exactly what Ukraine needs now." Ukraine s Neo-Nazis Are the Most Dangerous in Europe - Russia Insider
Hera comes new Reich, we should be afraid

This is just Russian propaganda!

Russia Insider!

What a joke !

 

[Sonc]

=====Do you remember the USSR? Where is it now? Did America need any bomb to get rid of it?



And you consider, what the USA won against the USSR? =)))
Disorder of the USSR this political decision. Crash of POLITICAL system. Probably the USA helped =)
But for it I can tell only thanks.
Because Russia is pleasant to me much more than the USSR.

Simpla facts. Communists of Russia is a communist party in Russia. It was founded in 2009. At the Russian regional elections in 2012the party got 2 to 3.5 percent of the vote and 2 seats.

3%!!!=))) 90% from these 3% are pensioners.
That is why the USSR broke up.
Now Putin's support 90%

 

[ESay]

=====Do you remember the USSR? Where is it now? Did America need any bomb to get rid of it?



And you consider, what the USA won against the USSR? =)))
Disorder of the USSR this political decision. Crash of POLITICAL system. Probably the USA helped =)
But for it I can tell only thanks.
Because Russia is pleasant to me much more than the USSR.

Simpla facts. Communists of Russia is a communist party in Russia. It was founded in 2009. At the Russian regional elections in 2012the party got 2 to 3.5 percent of the vote and 2 seats.

3%!!!=))) 90% from these 3% are pensioners.
That is why the USSR broke up.
Now Putin's support 90%

To say the truth, I don’t properly understand what you are trying to say. Do you mean that the fall of the USSR is cool? But then why did you leader whose approval rating is 90% say that the fall was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century?

 

[Sonc]

To say the truth, I don’t properly understand what you are trying to say.

Sorry. My English is very bad =)

Do you mean that the fall of the USSR is cool? But then why did you leader whose approval rating is 90% say that the fall was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century?

This question arises because many news distort information.
I found these words in Russian. Putin explains in detail why this is so.

1. Many businesses have lost connection. People lost their jobs.
2. Many people have lost touch with their relatives. For example, imagine that your sister married a man from another state and moved to his city. You woke up, and she a citizen of another country. Millions of families were separated. For example, two of my aunts live in Ukraine.
3. Many small decisions were made very quickly and were bad.
New laws were very poor. There was a lot of crime.
The oligarchs started to steal property.
Was breaking up social programs, education, and medicine.
4. (Putin did not say that )Yeltsin was a terrible president =))))))