U.S. and Israel ongoing relationship

[SergeGainsbourg]

When I hear Netanyahu declare to the US Congress that the US has no greater friend than Israel, I wonder if any of the Congresspeople are scratching their heads. The reverse certainly has been true. But how has Israel been a good friend to the US? By repeatedly disrespecting our Presidents by lying to them? Forcing George H.W. Bush to hold up loan guarantees? "Schooling" President Obama? No, as our wise President declared almost at the same time, the United Kingdom is our greatest ally. Israel has been behaving like an ungrateful stepchild. Now that we may cancel the F35, they have to be wondering whether there are better options for arms from Russia and the Europeans.

The best way we can be a good friend to Israel is by being honest with them and allowing them to have the dignity of not being a foreign aid recipient. They are not Pakistan or Egypt. They are a developed economy that is doing quite well (better than the US). Then, they can prove their friendship by buying our products (arms or otherwise), instead of depending on a handout. Imagine if the American people were asked in a poll if they would support continued aid for Israel or use those funds to reduce the Social Security payroll tax? What do you think the percentages would be?

 

[Jroc]

When I hear Netanyahu declare to the US Congress that the US has no greater friend than Israel, I wonder if any of the Congresspeople are scratching their heads. The reverse certainly has been true. But how has Israel been a good friend to the US? By repeatedly disrespecting our Presidents by lying to them? Forcing George H.W. Bush to hold up loan guarantees? "Schooling" President Obama? No, as our wise President declared almost at the same time, the United Kingdom is our greatest ally. Israel has been behaving like an ungrateful stepchild. Now that we may cancel the F35, they have to be wondering whether there are better options for arms from Russia and the Europeans.

The best way we can be a good friend to Israel is by being honest with them and allowing them to have the dignity of not being a foreign aid recipient. They are not Pakistan or Egypt. They are a developed economy that is doing quite well (better than the US). Then, they can prove their friendship by buying our products (arms or otherwise), instead of depending on a handout. Imagine if the American people were asked in a poll if they would support continued aid for Israel or use those funds to reduce the Social Security payroll tax? What do you think the percentages would be?

Are you in favor of eliminating all federal foreign aid? If so your argument would hold more weight, but since you only focus on the 3 billion Israel gets and ignore the other 47 billion in aid we give to the rest of the world you are just another Jew hater in my book. That money is part of the peace deal where Israel had to give up the entire Sinai and yes Jillian is right there is oil there. Israel gives up a lot for peace as they always do. That 3 billion is well spent in my book, and if all the Jew haters around the world would stop their stupid boycotts of Israeli products they would already be off the aid.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

When I hear Netanyahu declare to the US Congress that the US has no greater friend than Israel, I wonder if any of the Congresspeople are scratching their heads. The reverse certainly has been true. But how has Israel been a good friend to the US? By repeatedly disrespecting our Presidents by lying to them? Forcing George H.W. Bush to hold up loan guarantees? "Schooling" President Obama? No, as our wise President declared almost at the same time, the United Kingdom is our greatest ally. Israel has been behaving like an ungrateful stepchild. Now that we may cancel the F35, they have to be wondering whether there are better options for arms from Russia and the Europeans.

The best way we can be a good friend to Israel is by being honest with them and allowing them to have the dignity of not being a foreign aid recipient. They are not Pakistan or Egypt. They are a developed economy that is doing quite well (better than the US). Then, they can prove their friendship by buying our products (arms or otherwise), instead of depending on a handout. Imagine if the American people were asked in a poll if they would support continued aid for Israel or use those funds to reduce the Social Security payroll tax? What do you think the percentages would be?

Are you in favor of eliminating all federal foreign aid? If so your argument would hold more weight, but since you only focus on the 3 billion Israel gets and ignore the other 47 billion in aid we give to the rest of the world you are just another Jew hater in my book. That money is part of the peace deal where Israel had to give up the entire Sinai and yes Jillian is right there is oil there. Israel gives up a lot for peace as they always do. That 3 billion is well spent in my book, and if all the Jew haters around the world would stop their stupid boycotts of Israeli products they would already be off the aid.

Let's dissect your argument. First a bit of decorum. I will not insult you even though you insult me. I am not a Jew hater. I am Jewish and it is disappointing that people can not discuss these issues without being attacked as a Jew hater. Ultimately these kinds of smears only help one group--the real Jew haters, because you group them with reasonable people.

Second, you have an excellent Ronald Reagan quote in your tagline. A good way to limit government is to cut the size of spending.

Third, let's limit foreign aid that we give to developed economics (members of the OECD for example). I don't think we should give aid to Japan or South Korea or Western Europe.

Fourth, please give me some examples of how Israel has been a friend to the US that has helped the US independently of interests that also help them (such as fighting HAMAS).

I look forward to your reply.

 

[muddbutt]

It's kind of like Germany wanting Pomerania and East Prussia back from Poland after losing WW2 while denying Poland's right to exist. If the Arabs get what they want, logically, a reborn South Vietnam should be an easy shoe-in as they were the ones invaded and destroyed...right? What? Wrong??

India wants Pakistan and Bangladesh back maybe?

You do understand that when the Arab-Israel war ended, there were geographic boundaries set at that time. After the war, Israel began a brutal military occupation and colonization of those lands beyond those borders coinciding with a dramatic increase in US political/military support that began around that time.

What is interesting is the reaction to Obama's statement about the 1967 lines. Most of what obama has said I have heard before and is consistent with the two state solution.. "the roadmap to peace. " It isn't the least bit controversial because this is consistent with our stated roadmap to peace policy. Keep in mind, this is a framework for peace that virtually the entire world supports, including all arab nations, all european nations, including even the hamas government. I must add that Obama's statement is controversial, because the US has not historically supported the two state solution, except with one major exception, when clinton supported the talks in Taba Egypt, which were in the end killed by Israel.

These facts were published in Jimmy Carter's book ‘Palestine: Peace not Apartheid,’ which elicited such a torrent of abuse and vitriol in the US that it was astounding, including a lawsuit against carter. Despite a campaign to portray Carter as an anti-semite, which is the normal reaction to anyone that is even remotely critical of our governments support for israeli policies, he managed to come out unscathed.

The way I see it- there is one huge problem that is a barrier to peace: the united states. The US does not want it. You can see this clearly by recent vetos in the UN and by Obama's failure to stop the expansion of settlements.

If we continue to give the kind of aid to Israel , our policy should be to stop the brutal occupation of the palestinians, and support the international consensus for peace, that is only possible with the help of our government.

 

[Jroc]

Are you in favor of eliminating all federal foreign aid? If so your argument would hold more weight, but since you only focus on the 3 billion Israel gets and ignore the other 47 billion in aid we give to the rest of the world you are just another Jew hater in my book. That money is part of the peace deal where Israel had to give up the entire Sinai and yes Jillian is right there is oil there. Israel gives up a lot for peace as they always do. That 3 billion is well spent in my book, and if all the Jew haters around the world would stop their stupid boycotts of Israeli products they would already be off the aid.

Let's dissect your argument. First a bit of decorum. I will not insult you even though you insult me. I am not a Jew hater. I am Jewish and it is disappointing that people can not discuss these issues without being attacked as a Jew hater. Ultimately these kinds of smears only help one group--the real Jew haters, because you group them with reasonable people

.


You say you're a Jew.. Ok you're a Jew so let me rephrase that, Your a Zionist hater? So you favor aid to Egypt and Pakistan but none for the Israel? So youre a Chomskyite? Congradulations you must be proud.

Second, you have an excellent Ronald Reagan quote in your tagline. A good way to limit government is to cut the size of spending.

Third, let's limit foreign aid that we give to developed economics (members of the OECD for example). I don't think we should give aid to Japan or South Korea or Western Europe

.


Reagan believed we should promote our interest around the world including having Israel as a counter balance in the Mid-East against the Soviet Backed Arabs. Being that there is no more Soviet Union, Japan, Western Europe no problem.. Korea is still in a state of war we have to stay there, all we have is a cease-fire agreement

Fourth, please give me some examples of how Israel has been a friend to the US that has helped the US independently of interests that also help them (such as fighting HAMAS).

I look forward to your reply

Independently? Why? What’s good for Israeli is for the most part good for the U.S. I already mentioned the Soviet counter balance in the Region and we don't fight Hamas the Israelis do that

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Are you in favor of eliminating all federal foreign aid? If so your argument would hold more weight, but since you only focus on the 3 billion Israel gets and ignore the other 47 billion in aid we give to the rest of the world you are just another Jew hater in my book. That money is part of the peace deal where Israel had to give up the entire Sinai and yes Jillian is right there is oil there. Israel gives up a lot for peace as they always do. That 3 billion is well spent in my book, and if all the Jew haters around the world would stop their stupid boycotts of Israeli products they would already be off the aid.

.


You say you're a Jew.. Ok you're a Jew so let me rephrase that, Your a Zionist hater? So you favor aid to Egypt and Pakistan but none for the Israel? So youre a Chomskyite? Congradulations you must be proud.

.


Reagan believed we should promote our interest around the world including having Israel as a counter balance in the Mid-East against the Soviet Backed Arabs. Being that there is no more Soviet Union, Japan, Western Europe no problem.. Korea is still in a state of war we have to stay there, all we have is a cease-fire agreement

Fourth, please give me some examples of how Israel has been a friend to the US that has helped the US independently of interests that also help them (such as fighting HAMAS).

I look forward to your reply

Independently? Why? What’s good for Israeli is for the most part good for the U.S. I already mentioned the Soviet counter balance in the Region and we don't fight Hamas the Israelis do that

Yet again you resort to personal insults. I don't hate anyone or anything. I support Israel as a country to the point where I think it would be to their strategic advantage to have strong connection with other powers besides the US. They have the money and exports to do this.

Everything in Israel's interest is in the US interest? What's good for Israel is good for America? Is that what you're saying? Based on this, why don't we quadruple aid to Israel so we can pay for them having national health care. Wait....They already do. So they have less debt than us, full national health care for their citizens, meanwhile we're drowning in debt and you want the US taxpayer to fund the Israeli taxpayer? Whose side are you on? Love it or leave it.

 

[Jroc]

.


You say you're a Jew.. Ok you're a Jew so let me rephrase that, Your a Zionist hater? So you favor aid to Egypt and Pakistan but none for the Israel? So youre a Chomskyite? Congradulations you must be proud.

.


Reagan believed we should promote our interest around the world including having Israel as a counter balance in the Mid-East against the Soviet Backed Arabs. Being that there is no more Soviet Union, Japan, Western Europe no problem.. Korea is still in a state of war we have to stay there, all we have is a cease-fire agreement






Independently? Why? What’s good for Israeli is for the most part good for the U.S. I already mentioned the Soviet counter balance in the Region and we don't fight Hamas the Israelis do that

Yet again you resort to personal insults. I don't hate anyone or anything. I support Israel as a country to the point where I think it would be to their strategic advantage to have strong connection with other powers besides the US. They have the money and exports to do this.

Everything in Israel's interest is in the US interest? What's good for Israel is good for America? Is that what you're saying? Based on this, why don't we quadruple aid to Israel so we can pay for them having national health care. Wait....They already do. So they have less debt than us, full national health care for their citizens, meanwhile we're drowning in debt and you want the US taxpayer to fund the Israeli taxpayer? Whose side are you on? Love it or leave it.

We're not drowning in debt because of 3 billion a year in aid to Israel, being that your only focused on Israel that says a lot doesn’t it.. Cut aid to Israel but keep giving aid to Egypt...Nothing more needs to be said about your position it's pretty clear to me.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Yet again you resort to personal insults. I don't hate anyone or anything. I support Israel as a country to the point where I think it would be to their strategic advantage to have strong connection with other powers besides the US. They have the money and exports to do this.

Everything in Israel's interest is in the US interest? What's good for Israel is good for America? Is that what you're saying? Based on this, why don't we quadruple aid to Israel so we can pay for them having national health care. Wait....They already do. So they have less debt than us, full national health care for their citizens, meanwhile we're drowning in debt and you want the US taxpayer to fund the Israeli taxpayer? Whose side are you on? Love it or leave it.

We're not drowning in debt because of 3 billion a year in aid to Israel, being that your only focused on Israel that says a lot doesn’t it.. Cut aid to Israel but keep giving aid to Egypt...Nothing more needs to be said about your position it's pretty clear to me.

Uh, I don't want to insult your intelligence, but we give aid to Egypt and Jordan as part of peace deals deals with Israel, therefore these aid deals are indirect aid to Israel. I am against cutting this aid because it would be harmful to Israel to do so.

I am for cutting aid to Pakistan and giving it to India as it has been clear for a long time now that the Pakistanis have their own agenda and are the worlds leading terror factory.

We're drowning in debt because of the Bush tax cuts and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US military, including General Patraeus has said that our standing by Israel as they behave intransigently in the peace process is harmful to our interests in the battlefield.

As an American, I don't want my tax dollars supporting an illegal Israeli occupation of the West Bank, because this makes me a target and ethically the occupation is looking more and more like apartheid era South Africa.

 

[Jroc]

We're not drowning in debt because of 3 billion a year in aid to Israel, being that your only focused on Israel that says a lot doesn’t it.. Cut aid to Israel but keep giving aid to Egypt...Nothing more needs to be said about your position it's pretty clear to me.

Uh, I don't want to insult your intelligence, but we give aid to Egypt and Jordan as part of peace deals deals with Israel, therefore these aid deals are indirect aid to Israel. I am against cutting this aid because it would be harmful to Israel to do so.

I am for cutting aid to Pakistan and giving it to India as it has been clear for a long time now that the Pakistanis have their own agenda and are the worlds leading terror factory.

We're drowning in debt because of the Bush tax cuts and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US military, including General Patraeus has said that our standing by Israel as they behave intransigently in the peace process is harmful to our interests in the battlefield.

As an American, I don't want my tax dollars supporting an illegal Israeli occupation of the West Bank, because this makes me a target and ethically the occupation is looking more and more like apartheid era South Africa.

There you go.. I know I'd get it out of you... it didn't take much Chomsky

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Uh, I don't want to insult your intelligence, but we give aid to Egypt and Jordan as part of peace deals deals with Israel, therefore these aid deals are indirect aid to Israel. I am against cutting this aid because it would be harmful to Israel to do so.

I am for cutting aid to Pakistan and giving it to India as it has been clear for a long time now that the Pakistanis have their own agenda and are the worlds leading terror factory.

We're drowning in debt because of the Bush tax cuts and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US military, including General Patraeus has said that our standing by Israel as they behave intransigently in the peace process is harmful to our interests in the battlefield.

As an American, I don't want my tax dollars supporting an illegal Israeli occupation of the West Bank, because this makes me a target and ethically the occupation is looking more and more like apartheid era South Africa.

There you go.. I know I'd get it out of you... it didn't take much Chomsky

Nothing wrong with Noam Chomsky. He's one of the foremost intellectuals of our time. What seem unable to do is craft an argument based on facts and not ad homonym attacks. I support the state of Israel. I supported Operation Cast Lead as I thought it was absurd that Israel should have to put up with missile attacks from Hamas. But I am also against the occupation because it is bad for Israel, bad for America and the world, which puts me in agreement with Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert.

If you are prepared to have an intelligent discussion (or even capable), how would you propose solving the upcoming demographic time bomb? What if the Palestinians say tomorrow that they are dissolving the Palestinian authority and ask for direct Israeli rule? What happens when they begin to protest non-violently for the right to vote? Non-jews are already over 40% of the population of the territory Israel controls. Arab birth rates are 2.2% annually, while Jewish are 1.8%. If this happens, how many Isrealis would want to leave for Europe or America?


Think.

 

[dilloduck]

There you go.. I know I'd get it out of you... it didn't take much Chomsky

Nothing wrong with Noam Chomsky. He's one of the foremost intellectuals of our time. What seem unable to do is craft an argument based on facts and not ad homonym attacks. I support the state of Israel. I supported Operation Cast Lead as I thought it was absurd that Israel should have to put up with missile attacks from Hamas. But I am also against the occupation because it is bad for Israel, bad for America and the world, which puts me in agreement with Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert.

If you are prepared to have an intelligent discussion (or even capable), how would you propose solving the upcoming demographic time bomb? What if the Palestinians say tomorrow that they are dissolving the Palestinian authority and ask for direct Israeli rule? What happens when they begin to protest non-violently for the right to vote? Non-jews are already over 40% of the population of the territory Israel controls. Arab birth rates are 2.2% annually, while Jewish are 1.8%. If this happens, how many Isrealis would want to leave for Europe or America?


Think.

They refuse to think.
How did Israel get so damn destitute in the first place and how come they can't afford their own behavior. How many other countries provide financial aid to Israel ?

 

[Ropey]

They refuse to think.
How did Israel get so damn destitute in the first place and how come they can't afford their own behavior. How many other countries provide financial aid to Israel ?

And this really pisses you off? Why?

You are clear.

 

[Ropey]

I agree with you that military aid to Israel is more about funding the military industrial <b>welfare</b> state than anything else.

Egypt is funded at $2B so that it does not attack Israel, therefore this can be counted as aid to Israel as well.

You are clear when you call Israel a welfare state. You need to hide it better.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

They refuse to think.
How did Israel get so damn destitute in the first place and how come they can't afford their own behavior. How many other countries provide financial aid to Israel ?

And this really pisses you off? Why?

You are clear.

They used to say that Bill Clinton would drive through a car wash in a convertible and everyone else would get wet. And I think the situation with Israel is somewhat analogous.

 

[docmauser1]

WASHINGTON—State Department diplomat Nelson Milstrand, who appeared on CNN last week and offered an informed, thoughtful analysis implying that Israel could perhaps exercise more restraint toward Palestinian moderates in disputed territories, was asked to resign Tuesday.

Funny. Some more Onion:
HEBRON, WEST BANK—In an emotionally charged press conference Monday, crazed Palestinian gunman Faisal al Hamad expressed frustration over the stereotyping of his people.
"As a crazed Palestinian gunman, I feel hurt by the negative portrayal of my people in the media," said al Hamad, 31, a Hebron-area terrorist maniac. "None of us should have to live with stereotyping and ignorance."
He then began screaming and firing into a busload of Israeli schoolchildren.
"It hurts that in this supposedly enlightened day and age, people still make assumptions about other people," al Hamad said. "We should not rely on simple generalizations. Each crazed Palestinian gunman is an individual."

 

[docmauser1]

Uh, I don't want to insult your intelligence, but we give aid to Egypt and Jordan as part of peace deals deals with Israel, therefore these aid deals are indirect aid to Israel. I am against cutting this aid because it would be harmful to Israel to do so. I am for cutting aid to Pakistan and giving it to India as it has been clear for a long time now that the Pakistanis have their own agenda and are the worlds leading terror factory. We're drowning in debt because of the Bush tax cuts and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US military, including General Patraeus has said that our standing by Israel as they behave intransigently in the peace process is harmful to our interests in the battlefield.
As an American, I don't want my tax dollars supporting an illegal Israeli occupation of the West Bank, because this makes me a target and ethically the occupation is looking more and more like apartheid era South Africa.

Funny drivel, but we need to make one correction - it's chinese tax dollars, of course.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Uh, I don't want to insult your intelligence, but we give aid to Egypt and Jordan as part of peace deals deals with Israel, therefore these aid deals are indirect aid to Israel. I am against cutting this aid because it would be harmful to Israel to do so. I am for cutting aid to Pakistan and giving it to India as it has been clear for a long time now that the Pakistanis have their own agenda and are the worlds leading terror factory. We're drowning in debt because of the Bush tax cuts and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US military, including General Patraeus has said that our standing by Israel as they behave intransigently in the peace process is harmful to our interests in the battlefield.
As an American, I don't want my tax dollars supporting an illegal Israeli occupation of the West Bank, because this makes me a target and ethically the occupation is looking more and more like apartheid era South Africa.

Funny drivel, but we need to make one correction - it's chinese tax dollars, of course.

Well, it is the invested Chinese tax dollars, yes.

 

[dilloduck]

They refuse to think.
How did Israel get so damn destitute in the first place and how come they can't afford their own behavior. How many other countries provide financial aid to Israel ?

And this really pisses you off? Why?

You are clear.

They used to say that Bill Clinton would drive through a car wash in a convertible and everyone else would get wet. And I think the situation with Israel is somewhat analogous.

Israel is soaked--they just don't care as long as the money flows.

 

[Jroc]

There you go.. I know I'd get it out of you... it didn't take much Chomsky

Nothing wrong with Noam Chomsky. He's one of the foremost intellectuals of our time. What seem unable to do is craft an argument based on facts and not ad homonym attacks. I support the state of Israel. I supported Operation Cast Lead as I thought it was absurd that Israel should have to put up with missile attacks from Hamas. But I am also against the occupation because it is bad for Israel, bad for America and the world, which puts me in agreement with Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert.

If you are prepared to have an intelligent discussion (or even capable), how would you propose solving the upcoming demographic time bomb? What if the Palestinians say tomorrow that they are dissolving the Palestinian authority and ask for direct Israeli rule? What happens when they begin to protest non-violently for the right to vote? Non-jews are already over 40% of the population of the territory Israel controls. Arab birth rates are 2.2% annually, while Jewish are 1.8%. If this happens, how many Isrealis would want to leave for Europe or America?


Think.

You've been exposed no need to take any more of your bullshit seriously. The Arabs can do what they want, Israel will just annex what they feel they need give the Arabs what&#8217;s left. I actually doubt you're a Jew and your numbers are wrong...

Jews in Israel Are Not Declining Relative to Arabs Demographically

by Chris Gacek
May 24, 2011

Caroline Glick most recent column in the Jerusalem Post contains important demographic data. In his speech last week, President Obama stated, &#8220;The number of Palestinians living west of the Jordan River is growing rapidly and fundamentally reshaping the demographic realities of both Israel and the Palestinian territories. This will make it harder and harder &#8211; without a peace deal &#8211; to maintain Israel as both a Jewish state and a democratic state.&#8221;

Glick calls this the &#8220;demographic time bomb story,&#8221; and she says it is demonstrably false. I will let her provide the details:

&#8220;The demographic time bomb story is a Palestinian fabrication. In 1997, the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics published a falsified Palestinian census that inflated Palestinian population data by 50 percent.

&#8220;The Israeli Left adopted this fake report as its own when Palestinian terrorism and political warfare convinced the majority of Israelis that it was unwise to give them any more land and that the peace process was a lie.

&#8220;Since 2004, repeated, in-depth studies of Jewish and Arab birthrates and immigration/ emigration statistics west of the Jordan River undertaken by independent researchers have shown that the demographic time bomb is a dud. In January, the respected demographer Yaakov Faitelson published a study for the Institute of Zionist Strategies in which he definitively put to rest the tale of pending Jewish demographic doom.

&#8220;As Faitelson demonstrated, Jewish and Arab birthrates are already converging west of the Jordan River at around three children per woman. And whereas the fertility rates of Israeli Arabs, Gazans and residents of Judea and Samaria are all trending downward, Jewish fertility is consistently rising. Moreover, whereas the Arabs are experiencing consistently negative net immigration rates, Jewish net immigration rates are positive and high.&#8221;

&#8220;Faitelson based his multiyear projections on current population numbers in which Jews comprise 58.6 percent of the population west of the Jordan River and Muslims constitute 38.7% of the overall population. Non-Jewish, non-Muslim minorities comprise the other 2.7%. Using assessment baselines for Jewish net immigration well below current averages, Faitelson showed that in the years to come, not only will Jews not lose our demographic majority. We will increase it.

FRC Blog » Jews in Israel Are Not Declining Relative to Arabs Demographically

 

[docmauser1]

As an American, I don't want my tax dollars supporting an illegal Israeli occupation of the West Bank, because this makes me a target and ethically the occupation is looking more and more like apartheid era South Africa.

Funny drivel, but we need to make one correction - it's chinese tax dollars, of course.

Well, it is the invested Chinese tax dollars, yes.

It is borrowed chinese dollars, of course.