Israel dismisses 2 officers over deadly drone strikes on aid workers in Gaza

[Shusha]

Shusha, you agree with his post, I am no longer interested in discussions with you.

I hope you will reconsider after reading my explanation post and thanking me for it. You know I've always enjoyed our lively and intelligent discussions as an alternative to all the sound-bytes and careless language that are so casually tossed around (yes, including antisemite in every single post).

toomuchtime_ 's post illuminated something for me about my own thoughts and understanding of the conflict, and I always appreciate posters who can bring something I hadn't considered.

 

[Deadstick]

People have been immigrating to Palestine since before Israel became a state. There was Jewish immigration but there was also a concurrent Arab migration from surrounding countries (Trans Jordan, Egypt, Syria).

The problem with the colonist/colonial schtick is that colonialism has a specific definition: the practice of one country taking control of another country and occupying it with settlers in order to profit from its resources, labor and economy.

What country is colonizing Palestine?

You can spin it anyway you like, the bottom line is foreign jews that's if they are all jews are displacing the indigenous people of that land who didn't arrive from New York last week they and their people have lived there for centuries long before a State called Israel existed.

 

[Coyote]

I hope you will reconsider after reading my explanation post and thanking me for it. You know I've always enjoyed our lively and intelligent discussions as an alternative to all the sound-bytes and careless language that are so casually tossed around (yes, including antisemite in every single post).

toomuchtime_ 's post illuminated something for me about my own thoughts and understanding of the conflict, and I always appreciate posters who can bring something I hadn't considered.

I apologize for overreacting, I responded to posts out of order which ruined context. I DO enjoy discussions with you, because they make me think about my own positions or I learn something that might not have occurred to me. That is RARE here, and discussions can get so volatile. I will respond to the rest of your post a bit later (I'm i. the waiting room at my vet).

 

[Shusha]

(I'm i. the waiting room at my vet).

I hope it is for something routine, and not an illness or emergency.

 

[Shusha]

You can spin it anyway you like, the bottom line is foreign jews that's if they are all jews are displacing the indigenous people of that land who didn't arrive from New York last week they and their people have lived there for centuries long before a State called Israel existed.

Indigeneity is a COLLECTIVE concept, not an individual concept. The concept of being indigenous to a homeland, and all the rights inherent to self-determination and sovereignty that come with being indigenous, belongs to the people AS A WHOLE. Only the collective is able to determine who does and who does not belong to the collective.

Americans don't get to choose who can or can not be Canadian. Japanese don't get to choose who can or can not be Scottish. Israelis don't get to choose who is considered part of the people of Palestine. And only Israelis choose who is Israeli. Also, Coast Salish don't get to choose who is Mayan. Welsh don't get to choose who is Sami. Okinawans don't get to choose who is Maori. Only Jews get to decide who is a Jew.

Further, the presence of a people in a territory, no matter how long that presence might be, does not constitute or transform into indigeneity. No matter how long my Scots/Irish ancestry lives and produces descendants in Canada, I will never, ever be indigenous to Canada. Why? Because my culture is not a culture which originated in this land. My culture is a conquering, colonizing culture. Which is not at all to say that I don't have rights in Canada, even rights of self-determination and sovereignty. Nor does it mean that the Palestinian people do not have rights to self-determination and sovereignty. (Although that concept is mind-boggling if you take it to its conclusion. Do the people who immigrated to the US from Mexico, transferred their culture, mixed with the local population, have a future right to self-determination and sovereignty in, say, Texas, say a hundred years from now?)

Also, I'll add that though displacements did occur (both peoples) during wartimes, no collective displacement has occurred recently, though individual displacements are still occurring throughout the territory in complex legal shenanigans (both peoples).

 

[toomuchtime_]

Bullshit.

I provide sources ( and not fringe ones) to back my opinions.

How about you…you automatically believe every negative thing about Palestinians without looking further. Do you discount anything positive? Does that make you a racist or Islamophobe?

As far as discounting the “good things” said about Israel, again, B.S. I have repeatedly said Israel has done more than most countries to most to avoid civilian casualties and has shown considerable restraint when it comes to retaliating against Hamas ‘s rocket fire, Israel shown itself to excel at targeted, low casualty hits, BUT NOT IN THIS CONFLICT.

And addressing that is apparently antisemitic now in the new expanded definition of antisemitism.

You:

Acceptable argument: accept everything Israel says.
Unacceptable argument: accept anything the UN, NGO’s, medics and aid workers


Shusha, you agree with his post, I am no longer interested in discussions with you.



Are you objective? I have never said I was. No one here is, including you. Including Shusha.

But now, lack of being objective is “anti- semitic” if it favors the Palestinians.




The ability to monitor a conflict of this scale in the midst of the conflict is extremely difficult and to assume everything will be known about before it is over is a lie, particularly given the restricted access to the combat area. Many investigations are completed after the conflict. Until it is over or safe access is opened, you cannot say a lot decisively.

The UN determined Gaza is not committing genocide (which I agree with) but they also strongly noted that Israel needed to do more to protect civilians. You accept one part and discard the other, what a convenient double standard. I have never said Israel is committing genocide. What I HAVE said, at the beginning of the conflict, after Hamas’ attack, is that all the elements for possible genocide existed and Israel needed to be careful. This was based on an article I specifically linked to. Genocide has a very specific definition (and antisemitism used to until it became a way of shutting discussion on Israel).




Amazing. All this aid now coming in…AFTER EXTREME INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE, and finally, the US threatening to pull back, only then. Israel presented no credible plan until after there was an international uproar, long after it stated it stated it was going into Rafah, long after it had systematically pushed a huge portion of the population into Rafah and the Rafah crossing. The plan now, which emerged after multiple iterations were shown to be unworkable, has huge gaps. So they are ordering thousands of tents. AFTER international pressure. But no logistics on the necessary supporting infrastructure. Maybe you should listen to what so e of those in positions of power have said concerning Gaza, which might give some insight in regards to this.

But that would be anti-semitic.

Yet again, that's what all the antisemites say: I was just criticizing Israel's actions. But nothing could be further from the truth. You consistently embrace negative claims about Israel without any evidence they are true and dismiss or deny any claims to the contrary without any evidence they are untrue; that makes you an antisemite.

You assert you have sources for your opinions, but sources are not evidence, and holding strong opinions not based on facts is a definition of bigotry, in this case, antisemitism.

None of the charges you bring against Israel are supported by evidence. Even in your current post in which you are trying to put together a defense against being an antisemite, you make the outrageous claim, without any evidence, that Israel had no intent to evacuate civilians before entering Rafah until Biden threatened Israel on that issue (but Biden never threatened Israel about Rafah, only about taking measures to allow more aid in) and that is not a criticism of Israeli actions but your assessment of the character of the Jewish people, and that marks you indelibly as an antisemite.

 

[Coyote]

Yet again, that's what all the antisemites say: I was just criticizing Israel's actions. But nothing could be further from the truth. You consistently embrace negative claims about Israel without any evidence they are true and dismiss or deny any claims to the contrary without any evidence they are untrue; that makes you an antisemite.

You assert you have sources for your opinions, but sources are not evidence, and holding strong opinions not based on facts is a definition of bigotry, in this case, antisemitism.

None of the charges you bring against Israel are supported by evidence. Even in your current post in which you are trying to put together a defense against being an antisemite, you make the outrageous claim, without any evidence, that Israel had no intent to evacuate civilians before entering Rafah until Biden threatened Israel on that issue (but Biden never threatened Israel about Rafah, only about taking measures to allow more aid in) and that is not a criticism of Israeli actions but your assessment of the character of the Jewish people, and that marks you indelibly as an antisemite.

How about putting your money where your mouth is: show me evidence that Israel had a plan to evacuate Rafah prior to international pressure.

Sources can include evidence.

Biden did “threaten” Israel over Rafah, stop lying.


How exactly is this an assessment of the character of the Jewish people? The Jewish people are a religious/ethnic group living multiple cultures around the world, encompassing a broad range of cultures even within Israel. Israel is also a multi-ethnic nation, something you like to promote when useful and ignore at other times.

 

[Coyote]

I hope it is for something routine, and not an illness or emergency.

Yes, fortunately

 

[Shusha]

The Jewish people are a religious/ethnic group living multiple cultures around the world, encompassing a broad range of cultures...

I don't think this is an assessment that rings true for Jewish people. Sure, we might quibble over corn and rice, or the pattern and number of winds, but the culture is remarkably cohesive.

 

[Coyote]

Sure. And I understand why you might think so. But the difference I think I am trying to point out here is between the specific criticisms and the broader coloring of the entirety.

As example: Israel obstructs humanitarian aide into Gaza. (A point you explicitly made in post #414). Further (and I acknowledge you didn't do this, though many do, and thus the implication), that Israel is doing this deliberately to [insert emotive words here - genocide, starve, make Gaza unlivable, force out, ethnically cleanse, whatever].

This is a broad color, which assumes and presents a "factual" conclusion married to a moral judgement. It's a verdict, a finding, a decision--not a criticism.

A criticism might look like:

• Israel has a battalion at the Egyptian border which prevents all entry of aide
• Israel is not inspecting trucks fast enough
• Israel is turning away too many trucks because they contain disallowed materials
• Israel has not opened enough border crossings
• Israel has not provided enough security and protection for aide convoys through Gaza
• Israel has made errors in distinguishing between aide workers and militants in the same location

There are dozens of examples similar to this: indiscriminate bombing, disproportionality, ethnic cleansing v evacuation, widespread destruction, attacking [insert place which makes feels: hospitals, mosques, schools], occupation, apartheid, open air prison, concentration camp ...

The difference is that a criticism is actionable. You define the actor, present the action, preferably with solid evidence that this action is actually occurring, and you engage in discussion about what other actions the actor might make within the context.

The concern with antisemitism is that it puts Jews in the position of defending our underlying morality as a prerequisite to defending our actions, instead of the other way around. So, the argument starts with and centers, "why do you want to kill children?" instead of, "why do you employ 2000lb munitions instead of 500lb munitions?"

None of this is to say that Israel is above criticism. Rather, its that we never get a chance to get to the actual criticism, because we are constantly having to defend our existence, our history, our morality as abstract concepts before we even enter the conversation.

I think I see what you mean, because I see it applied in discussions about race (which is a forum that I also tend to take part in). I didn’t recognize it here. I think though, most people (including myself) don’t tend to argue from such a logical construct when debating. Food for thought.

Where I have trouble with it though, is Israel is a nation, and in my view as diverse, good, or mediocre or bad as any other nation. When I talk about Israel, I’m not talking about the entirety of the Jewish people or the the Jewish culture, but the actions of a nation and my opinion is heavily colored by statements and actions or inactions coming from the political leadership - the PM, MKs, ministers…people in power.

 

[Coyote]

I don't think this is an assessment that rings true for Jewish people. Sure, we might quibble over corn and rice, or the pattern and number of winds, but the culture is remarkably cohesive.

Is it? An article came up on my view (probably because did a search on colonial) - the article talked about the historical relationships and views among Arabs, the different ethnic Jewish groups and Europeans during Israel’s history leading to what we see now. What came out to me was that there were some pretty significant cultural differences between the “Arab Jews” and the “European Jews”. It would make for an interesting discussion in another topic.

 

[Coyote]

Israel has been under intense international pressure in every conflict with the Palestinians, and it has never influenced Israel's actions, but for practical reasons, pressure from the US is treated differently, however the evidence is the Biden administration, however the evidence is Biden never said anything about Israel having a plan to protect Rafah civilians before entering Rafah until two days after Netanyahu ordered the IDF to develop a plan to evacuate to evacuate civilians from Rafah, so there was never a time when Israel intended to begin a ground operation in Rafah before first evacuating civilians, and only someone as profoundly antisemitic as you would claim there was.

"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered the Israeli military to develop plans to evacuate Rafah, the southernmost city in Gaza. Its population before Oct. 7 was 100,000. Now, more than half of Gaza’s 2.3 million people have fled to the city. At the same time, there is progress on talks that would pause the fighting. Nick Schifrin reports."

Netanyahu orders Israeli military to plan for evacuation of Rafah ahead of ground assault

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered the Israeli military to develop plans to evacuate Rafah, the southernmost city in Gaza. Its population before Oct. 7 was 100,000. Now, more than half of Gaza’s 2.3 million people have fled to the city. At the same time, there is progress on talks...

www.pbs.org

This was reported by PBS on Feb 9, 2023, and two days later,

"President Biden pushed back on a planned military operation in the southern Gaza city of Rafah in a call with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, telling the Israeli leader that "a military operation in Rafah should not proceed without a credible and executable plan for ensuring the safety of and support for the more than one million people sheltering there."

In a call with reporters, a senior administration official said there are 1.3 million people in Rafah now who have dire humanitarian needs and nowhere to go. They sought refuge there after they fled fighting in other parts of Gaza."


This is the first time Biden has publicly cautioned Israel against its planned operation in Rafah. Other administration officials have said Israel has an obligation to keep civilians safe, and, as Linda Thomas-Greenfield, the U.S. ambassador to the UN told NPR, that under current conditions, Israel's planned military operation in Rafah "cannot proceed."

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/11/1230699953/biden-netanyahu-rafah

This is a WH readout of the call in which Biden threatened Netanyahu,

"President Biden spoke by telephone with Prime Minister Netanyahu. The two leaders discussed the situation in Gaza. President Biden emphasized that the strikes on humanitarian workers and the overall humanitarian situation are unacceptable. He made clear the need for Israel to announce and implement a series of specific, concrete, and measurable steps to address civilian harm, humanitarian suffering, and the safety of aid workers. He made clear that U.S. policy with respect to Gaza will be determined by our assessment of Israel’s immediate action on these steps. He underscored that an immediate ceasefire is essential to stabilize and improve the humanitarian situation and protect innocent civilians, and he urged the Prime Minister to empower his negotiators to conclude a deal without delay to bring the hostages home. The two leaders also discussed public Iranian threats against Israel and the Israeli people. President Biden made clear that the United States strongly supports Israel in the face of those threats."

Readout of President Joe Biden’s Call with Prime Minister Netanyahu of Israel | The White House

President Biden spoke by telephone with Prime Minister Netanyahu. The two leaders discussed the situation in Gaza. President Biden emphasized that the strikes on humanitarian workers and the overall humanitarian situation are unacceptable. He made clear the need for Israel to announce and...

www.whitehouse.gov

There is no mention of Rafah in this call, and there is no evidence that Biden ever threatened Israel over Rafah.

If all the charges you have made against Israel for which there is no evidence were removed from your posts, there would be nothing left.

From your source:

• As you pointed out, more than a million people are living in Rafah. That is 10 times the pre-October 7 population. And U.S. officials insist that Israel does not have any military plans ready for Rafah, let alone any plans to deal with all of those civilians, as deputy State Department Spokesman Vedant Patel said yesterday.
• Vedant Patel, Principal Deputy State Department Spokesperson:
  We have yet to see any evidence of serious planning for such an operation. And to do — conduct such an operation right now with no planning and little thought in an area where there is sheltering of a million people would be a disaster.

 

[toomuchtime_]

From your source:

• As you pointed out, more than a million people are living in Rafah. That is 10 times the pre-October 7 population. And U.S. officials insist that Israel does not have any military plans ready for Rafah, let alone any plans to deal with all of those civilians, as deputy State Department Spokesman Vedant Patel said yesterday.
• Vedant Patel, Principal Deputy State Department Spokesperson:
  We have yet to see any evidence of serious planning for such an operation. And to do — conduct such an operation right now with no planning and little thought in an area where there is sheltering of a million people would be a disaster.

Again, if all your accusations against Israel for which there is no evidence were removed from your posts, there would be nothing left.

 

[Shusha]

When I talk about Israel, I’m not talking about the entirety of the Jewish people or the the Jewish culture, but the actions of a nation and my opinion is heavily colored by statements and actions or inactions coming from the political leadership - the PM, MKs, ministers…people in power.

Sure. But do you see how we can get into the weeds with that? As in:

When I talk about Gaza, I'm not talking about the entirety of the Palestinian people or the Palestinian culture, but the actions of a [nation*] and my opinion is heavily colored by statements and actions or inactions coming from the political leadership - people in power.

You say you aren't talking about the entirety of the people, but then you make broad claims about ... the entirety of the people, as represented by their nation. Perhaps rightly and perhaps not, you might correct me when I say, "Gaza is starving it's own people" or "Gaza calls for the destruction of all Jews and the martyrdom of as many of their own people as needed to achieve that goal".

This is, again, why I think it is important to establish and communicate the specifics, and not the generalities.

*don't quibble on the "but Gaza isn't really a nation" point. I don't think it is relevant to the conversation, and Gaza has been entirely self-governing for 20 years.

 

[Matted Joybeard]

 

[Deadstick]

Here you have it, is this scumbag British like so many are or American?

 

[Ropey]

More Pallywood games. Supported by those who support Hamas...

While Gazans support Hamas to the tune of ~87%

 

[Lisa558]

I don't think this is an assessment that rings true for Jewish people. Sure, we might quibble over corn and rice, or the pattern and number of winds, but the culture is remarkably cohesive.

Yes, and it’s such a warm, comforting feeling knowing that no matter where I travel in the world, I can go to Shabbos services and hear the same prayers, with the same traditions, and the same Hebrew language, the same songs (although sometimes the melodies are unfamiliar), and the same welcome to a stranger in their midst who is Jewish and wants to participate in services.

And then of course there is always a nice Kiddish following, with the wine, and then the challah, and then the Shabbos goodies. It’s wonderful.

 

[Lisa558]

More Pallywood games. Supported by those who support Hamas...

While Gazans support Hamas to the tune of ~87%

It really is remarkable, and a testament to the Israelis’ moral code and discipline, that they continue to try to limit civilian deaths - given how the majority of these civilians supported the mass torture to death of innocent Israelis on October 7.

 

[Deadstick]

It really is remarkable, and a testament to the Israelis’ moral code and discipline, that they continue to try to limit civilian deaths - given how the majority of these civilians supported the mass torture to death of innocent Israelis on October 7.

Not sure what world you live in but it's a world of self delusion denying reality, you remind me of those Germans who looked away while the Nazis were rounding up jews and others to be locked in Concentration camps and many later to be murdered, problem with people like you is you confuse Judaism with Zionism, Zionism is a extreme racist Nationalist political movement fermented in Eastern Europe, it's more like the Apartheid regime that ruled South Africa, it's nothing to do with Judaism, that's why many jews reject those Zionists it's clear you are not one of them.