U.S. and Israel ongoing relationship

[SergeGainsbourg]

Evidently folks in the White House were particularly upset with Bibi's use of the phrase, "I expected to hear." I think this is a good measure of where the relationship has gone over the past 40 years.

Israel used to be a very poor country that depended on the US for aid, which was key to her survival. Now Israel is a developed country, with little debt compared to the US and Europe and is attracting foreign investment in its technology-based industries and is itself an arms exporter.

So the question is where does the relationship go from here. Even right wing people must wince at Bibi's disrespect for the institution of the Presidency, let alone President Obama himself. Yet Israel collects $3b annually in foreign military aid.

Here is a novel thought: Maybe it is in Israel's best interest to reject the aid and purchase the weapons outright. The GDP ($217B) can easily support it and by rejecting the aid, it would put itself on a more equal footing with the US and other world powers as it asserts its perceived interests--such as foot-dragging over a Palestinian state. Moreover, it will give the US some distance so that the US strategic interest is not jeopardized by right wing Israeli policies.

As a side note, I am for the plan outlined by Obama, but I think this is irrelevant to the questions I have raised.

 

[docmauser1]

Evidently folks in the White House were particularly upset with Bibi's use of the phrase, "I expected to hear." I think this is a good measure of where the relationship has gone over the past 40 years.

Can't help that. It's plainly evident that since the US has become the biggest muslim country the level of intelligence in the White house is experiencing a significant drop.

Israel used to be a very poor country that depended on the US for aid, which was key to her survival.

Now America is a poor country, dependent on the chinese for aid, which is key to its survival.

Now Israel is a developed country, with little debt compared to the US and Europe and is attracting foreign investment in its technology-based industries and is itself an arms exporter.

And then we have pelistanians and other general arabs still dreaming of plundering it all, instead of getting a life and a job, of course.

So the question is where does the relationship go from here.

Either America stops being the biggest muslim country in the world, or goes on, being one. Simple really.

Even right wing people must wince at Bibi's disrespect for the institution of the Presidency, let alone President Obama himself.

Maybe, but then again they couldn't have imagined they'd have sunk so low.

Yet Israel collects $3b annually in foreign military aid.

So does Egypt as part of the US security guarantees built into the peace accords between Israel and Egypt by Jimmy Carter. So, so what?

Here is a novel thought: Maybe it is in Israel's best interest to reject the aid and purchase the weapons outright. The GDP ($217B) can easily support it and by rejecting the aid, it would put itself on a more equal footing with the US and other world powers as it asserts its perceived interests--such as foot-dragging over a Palestinian state. Moreover, it will give the US some distance so that the US strategic interest is not jeopardized by right wing Israeli policies.

Cool, and since it'll result in serious Obama butt-stomping from the military-industrial guys behind the curtains over the military-industrial welfare too, it's a win-win.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

I agree with you that military aid to Israel is more about funding the military industrial welfare state than anything else.

Egypt is funded at $2B so that it does not attack Israel, therefore this can be counted as aid to Israel as well.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I agree with you that military aid to Israel is more about funding the military industrial welfare state than anything else.

Egypt is funded at $2B so that it does not attack Israel, therefore this can be counted as aid to Israel as well.

So you admitt Israel has a death warrant signed by Arab countries?

 

[docmauser1]

I agree with you that military aid to Israel is more about funding the military industrial welfare state than anything else. Egypt is funded at $2B so that it does not attack Israel, therefore this can be counted as aid to Israel as well.

So, arabs don't really have to complain, of course.

 

[editec]

Evidently folks in the White House were particularly upset with Bibi's use of the phrase, "I expected to hear." I think this is a good measure of where the relationship has gone over the past 40 years.

Israel used to be a very poor country that depended on the US for aid, which was key to her survival. Now Israel is a developed country, with little debt compared to the US and Europe and is attracting foreign investment in its technology-based industries and is itself an arms exporter.

So the question is where does the relationship go from here. Even right wing people must wince at Bibi's disrespect for the institution of the Presidency, let alone President Obama himself. Yet Israel collects $3b annually in foreign military aid.

Here is a novel thought: Maybe it is in Israel's best interest to reject the aid and purchase the weapons outright. The GDP ($217B) can easily support it and by rejecting the aid, it would put itself on a more equal footing with the US and other world powers as it asserts its perceived interests--such as foot-dragging over a Palestinian state. Moreover, it will give the US some distance so that the US strategic interest is not jeopardized by right wing Israeli policies.

As a side note, I am for the plan outlined by Obama, but I think this is irrelevant to the questions I have raised.

Most the "AID" we give to Isreal is really PORK we give to our arms merchants.

In fact, when you look more closely at most of the "AID" we give to most nations, what you discover is that it is really PORK we're giving to some cronny corporation.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

I agree with you that military aid to Israel is more about funding the military industrial welfare state than anything else.

Egypt is funded at $2B so that it does not attack Israel, therefore this can be counted as aid to Israel as well.

So you admitt Israel has a death warrant signed by Arab countries?

Do you really mean what you say here? I mean, grouping all Arab countries together. Is Syria the same as Jordan?

Israel is not a weak country, it has a developed economy and it could fund its own arms purchases and if the arms were purchased from Europe, Russia and China as well, Israel would have more "friends" on the UN Security Council and China might be less willing to carry Iran's water.

Moreover, Israel is strong enough that it doesn't need to be told what to do by the US. By rejecting the aid (in a nice way), Israel would be in a much stronger position diplomatically.

What was that about a death warrant?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I agree with you that military aid to Israel is more about funding the military industrial welfare state than anything else.

Egypt is funded at $2B so that it does not attack Israel, therefore this can be counted as aid to Israel as well.

So you admitt Israel has a death warrant signed by Arab countries?

Do you really mean what you say here? I mean, grouping all Arab countries together. Is Syria the same as Jordan?

Israel is not a weak country, it has a developed economy and it could fund its own arms purchases and if the arms were purchased from Europe, Russia and China as well, Israel would have more "friends" on the UN Security Council and China might be less willing to carry Iran's water.

Moreover, Israel is strong enough that it doesn't need to be told what to do by the US. By rejecting the aid (in a nice way), Israel would be in a much stronger position diplomatically.

What was that about a death warrant?

Egypt is funded at $2B so that it does not attack Israel

You did ay this impling without the money Egypt would still be fighting Israel.

Moreover, Israel is strong enough that it doesn't need to be told what to do by the US.

You're right but friends do not stab other friends in the back. America is strong but we cannot not fight the whole world alone., Israel is alone now.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

It does strike me as very peculiar we are bribing the kilkenny cats to leave each other alone.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

So you admitt Israel has a death warrant signed by Arab countries?

Do you really mean what you say here? I mean, grouping all Arab countries together. Is Syria the same as Jordan?

Israel is not a weak country, it has a developed economy and it could fund its own arms purchases and if the arms were purchased from Europe, Russia and China as well, Israel would have more "friends" on the UN Security Council and China might be less willing to carry Iran's water.

Moreover, Israel is strong enough that it doesn't need to be told what to do by the US. By rejecting the aid (in a nice way), Israel would be in a much stronger position diplomatically.

What was that about a death warrant?

Egypt is funded at $2B so that it does not attack Israel

You did ay this impling without the money Egypt would still be fighting Israel.

Moreover, Israel is strong enough that it doesn't need to be told what to do by the US.

You're right but friends do not stab other friends in the back. America is strong but we cannot not fight the whole world alone., Israel is alone now.

Israel seems like the spoiled child that is tired of living under the hegemony of mom and dad (see Scott Evil).

Part of the peace deal of camp david involved American aid to Egypt. The money that flowed provided a good argument to those inside Egypt to not join other Arab countries in fighting Israel.

If Israel needs the US so much, then their leaders should behave more respectfully to our President. My theory is they don't need the US and this is why they behave disrespectfully.

 

[jillian]

Israel seems like the spoiled child that is tired of living under the hegemony of mom and dad (see Scott Evil).

Part of the peace deal of camp david involved American aid to Egypt. The money that flowed provided a good argument to those inside Egypt to not join other Arab countries in fighting Israel.

If Israel needs the US so much, then their leaders should behave more respectfully to our President. My theory is they don't need the US and this is why they behave disrespectfully.

what a silly comment. there were mutually beneficial reasons for egypt and israel to agree on a peace deal. egypt stopped getting its butt kicked by israel and got back the sinai. (which, if i'm not mistaken, actually had oil on it, unlike the rest of israel, though i could be wrong about that.)

they also got a lot of money in military assistance.

btw, screw you if you think israel is supposed to grovel and die at the hands of terrorists and be a supplicant. israel's done more than its fair share for the U.S., up to and including not finishing off hezbollah and hamas at the request of the bush father and son... and up to and including taking SCUD's for daddy bush so as not to upset his coaltion.

i love ignorance like yours. particularly when it comes in such a self-satisfied package.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Israel seems like the spoiled child that is tired of living under the hegemony of mom and dad (see Scott Evil).

Part of the peace deal of camp david involved American aid to Egypt. The money that flowed provided a good argument to those inside Egypt to not join other Arab countries in fighting Israel.

If Israel needs the US so much, then their leaders should behave more respectfully to our President. My theory is they don't need the US and this is why they behave disrespectfully.

what a silly comment. there were mutually beneficial reasons for egypt and israel to agree on a peace deal. egypt stopped getting its butt kicked by israel and got back the sinai. (which, if i'm not mistaken, actually had oil on it, unlike the rest of israel, though i could be wrong about that.)

they also got a lot of money in military assistance.

btw, screw you if you think israel is supposed to grovel and die at the hands of terrorists and be a supplicant. israel's done more than its fair share for the U.S., up to and including not finishing off hezbollah and hamas at the request of the bush father and son... and up to and including taking SCUD's for daddy bush so as not to upset his coaltion.

i love ignorance like yours. particularly when it comes in such a self-satisfied package.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Do you really mean what you say here? I mean, grouping all Arab countries together. Is Syria the same as Jordan?

Israel is not a weak country, it has a developed economy and it could fund its own arms purchases and if the arms were purchased from Europe, Russia and China as well, Israel would have more "friends" on the UN Security Council and China might be less willing to carry Iran's water.

Moreover, Israel is strong enough that it doesn't need to be told what to do by the US. By rejecting the aid (in a nice way), Israel would be in a much stronger position diplomatically.

What was that about a death warrant?

You did ay this impling without the money Egypt would still be fighting Israel.

Moreover, Israel is strong enough that it doesn't need to be told what to do by the US.

You're right but friends do not stab other friends in the back. America is strong but we cannot not fight the whole world alone., Israel is alone now.

Israel seems like the spoiled child that is tired of living under the hegemony of mom and dad (see Scott Evil).

Part of the peace deal of camp david involved American aid to Egypt. The money that flowed provided a good argument to those inside Egypt to not join other Arab countries in fighting Israel.

If Israel needs the US so much, then their leaders should behave more respectfully to our President. My theory is they don't need the US and this is why they behave disrespectfully.

Jillian said what needed to be said. I do not need to beat you down anymore than she already has.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Israel seems like the spoiled child that is tired of living under the hegemony of mom and dad (see Scott Evil).

Part of the peace deal of camp david involved American aid to Egypt. The money that flowed provided a good argument to those inside Egypt to not join other Arab countries in fighting Israel.

If Israel needs the US so much, then their leaders should behave more respectfully to our President. My theory is they don't need the US and this is why they behave disrespectfully.

what a silly comment. there were mutually beneficial reasons for egypt and israel to agree on a peace deal. egypt stopped getting its butt kicked by israel and got back the sinai. (which, if i'm not mistaken, actually had oil on it, unlike the rest of israel, though i could be wrong about that.)

they also got a lot of money in military assistance.

btw, screw you if you think israel is supposed to grovel and die at the hands of terrorists and be a supplicant. israel's done more than its fair share for the U.S., up to and including not finishing off hezbollah and hamas at the request of the bush father and son... and up to and including taking SCUD's for daddy bush so as not to upset his coaltion.

i love ignorance like yours. particularly when it comes in such a self-satisfied package.

Is there need for such ad homonym vitriol? This is usually reserved for those without an argument. So I give you the benefit of the doubt that you do have an argument and will address it forthrightly.

First, if the US wasn't engaged with Israel, why would we care about HAMAS or Hezbollah? Saddam Hussein was an enemy of Israel and Israel not fighting back against the SCUD missiles wasn't a situation with aggression left unanswered since the US did it for them (at considerable cost that is not included in the normal foreign aid bill.)

I am not saying Israel should have to grovel, instead I am saying the opposite. Israel is a developed economy with a lower debt/GDP ration than the US with multiple industries and can with a GDP of $219B can certainly afford to spend $3b a year on arms. Moreover, if they bought some those arms from the EU, China and Russia as well as the US, they would be an a better strategic position, as some of these countries are presently supplying Syria and Iran.

So please, let's engage in a civilized discussion on the issues and keep our tempers in check.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Israel spends 13 billion USD (not even counting the $2.3 billion in military charity that the United States gives it) on tanks, planes, and bombs every year. It's got nukes. It can kick every single Arab state's ass about 10 times over. It's already kicked virtually all their asses combined 3 or 4 times. It doesn't need the United States: despite their leadership's whining, the State of Israel has the most powerful military in the entire region.

For that matter, there is absolutely no reason why the United States should give Egypt's military $1.7 billion in guns either, or Jordan, or anyone. It accomplishes nothing but give more power and tax-payer money to American weapons manufacturers. The only aid that any country should dispense is economic development aid to the least developed countries and nothing more.

As far as Israel's security goes, they should disclose their nuclear arsenal and give the Palestinians a viable state.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Israel spends 13 billion USD (not even counting the $2.3 billion in military charity that the United States gives it) on tanks, planes, and bombs every year. It's got nukes. It can kick every single Arab state's ass about 10 times over. It's already kicked virtually all their asses combined 3 or 4 times. It doesn't need the United States: despite their leadership's whining, the State of Israel has the most powerful military in the entire region.

For that matter, there is absolutely no reason why the United States should give Egypt's military $1.7 billion in guns either, or Jordan, or anyone. It accomplishes nothing but give more power and tax-payer money to American weapons manufacturers. The only aid that any country should dispense is economic development aid to the least developed countries and nothing more.

As far as Israel's security goes, they should disclose their nuclear arsenal and give the Palestinians a viable state.

Sanity has entered the room.

 

[docmauser1]

For that matter, there is absolutely no reason why the United States should give Egypt's military $1.7 billion in guns either, or Jordan, or anyone. It accomplishes nothing but give more power and tax-payer money to American weapons manufacturers.

I like it. The stench from those arab states will be rising to high heaven.

As far as Israel's security goes, they should disclose their nuclear arsenal

Why?

and give the Palestinians a viable state.

Palistanians don't want it. Getting a life and a job is the lowest on the list of their collective priorities, and they like it this way, dreams of plundering and stuff, of course.

 

[Sallow]

Evidently folks in the White House were particularly upset with Bibi's use of the phrase, "I expected to hear." I think this is a good measure of where the relationship has gone over the past 40 years.

Israel used to be a very poor country that depended on the US for aid, which was key to her survival. Now Israel is a developed country, with little debt compared to the US and Europe and is attracting foreign investment in its technology-based industries and is itself an arms exporter.
So the question is where does the relationship go from here. Even right wing people must wince at Bibi's disrespect for the institution of the Presidency, let alone President Obama himself. Yet Israel collects $3b annually in foreign military aid.

Here is a novel thought: Maybe it is in Israel's best interest to reject the aid and purchase the weapons outright. The GDP ($217B) can easily support it and by rejecting the aid, it would put itself on a more equal footing with the US and other world powers as it asserts its perceived interests--such as foot-dragging over a Palestinian state. Moreover, it will give the US some distance so that the US strategic interest is not jeopardized by right wing Israeli policies.

As a side note, I am for the plan outlined by Obama, but I think this is irrelevant to the questions I have raised.

That's amazing.

When did the aid stop?

 

[Jos]

WASHINGTON—State Department diplomat Nelson Milstrand, who appeared on CNN last week and offered an informed, thoughtful analysis implying that Israel could perhaps exercise more restraint toward Palestinian moderates in disputed territories, was asked to resign Tuesday. “The United States deeply regrets any harm Mr. Milstrand’s careful, even-tempered, and factually accurate remarks may have caused our democratic partner in the Middle East,” Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in an unequivocal condemnation of the veteran foreign-service officer’s perfectly reasonable statements. “U.S. policy toward Israel continues to be one of unconditional support and fawning sycophancy.” Milstrand, 63, will reportedly appear at an AIPAC conference to offer a full apology as soon as his trial concludes and his divorce is finalized

Government Official Who Makes Perfectly Valid, Well-Reasoned Point Against Israel Forced To Resign | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

 

[Ropey]

It's kind of like Germany wanting Pomerania and East Prussia back from Poland after losing WW2 while denying Poland's right to exist. If the Arabs get what they want, logically, a reborn South Vietnam should be an easy shoe-in as they were the ones invaded and destroyed...right? What? Wrong??

India wants Pakistan and Bangladesh back maybe?