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Let's hope they prevail. Because if they do not, forget about NATO and the EU.
May 28 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. jet fighters from Iraq crossed into Turkey in an area where the Turkish military is building up forces in preparation for a possible attack on Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq.
Two U.S. F-16 combat aircraft flew over the southeastern province of Hakkari for four minutes on May 24 in a violation of Turkish airspace, Turkey's army said in a statement on its Web site late yesterday.
The U.S. planes appear to have entered Turkish airspace inadvertently and the incident is under investigation, a U.S. Embassy spokeswoman in Ankara said today in a phone interview.
Turkey, with the second-biggest army in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, has threatened to enter northern Iraq without the approval of the U.S., saying the U.S. has failed to stop militants from the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, from using Iraq as a base from which to attack Turkey. The deaths of six people in a May 22 suicide bombing in the Turkish capital, Ankara, blamed on the PKK, has increased pressure on the government to order an attack.
Turkey has sent tens of thousands of troops to the region bordering Iraq in the last month, saying the operation is to prevent PKK rebels from entering Turkey. Hundreds of tanks are being deployed to reinforce the troops, the Sabah newspaper reported today without saying where it got the information.
U.S. inaction against the PKK has prompted Turkey's parliament to prepare to approve an incursion into Iraq if the army requests it, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said last week.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aDHUn75hDFxA&refer=us
Talkin' parts done. Bring what you've got so you can get your little bubble burst the same way Saddam and his "4th largest in the world battle-hardened army" got.
Apparently you Turks and your delusions of grandeur have allowed your minds to mistake political confusion on the US's part as an inability to whip y'all's wannabe asses.
Trying to blame the US because you can't keep terrorists out fo your country is LAME.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/22/opinion/edhoge.php(...)cross-border raids by the PKK that, since the beginning of last year, have accounted for the deaths of 600 people, including many troops.
Agree. I think informations which were collected by US pilots will acknowledge your quotation.GunnyL said:Talkin' parts done.
There have been an awful lot of Kurdish guerrilla attacks against the Turks as of late, coming from the Iraqi side of the border.
If the US had any concept of pre-emptive diplomacy, it would be trying to bring the Turks & Kurds into a "trust but verify" security relationship w/ a small contingent of US forces to accompany their joint patrols on the border.
There is a lot of money to be made for both sides. A pity neither will place that potential windfall and investment climate above national pride.
We will march into Iraq with the understanding, that not every Kurd is a terrorist.
Also we will march in believing USA will stay out. If not, then it is the choice by USA. Accepted.
We are prepared for all possibilities as this is no computer strategy game, including sending you back home to America where you belong to.
And stop talking about someone's ass being whip just look your own situation in Iraq. Switch your brain on.
Perhaps you better switch YOURS on. We aren't fighting a war in Iraq. We're sitting in the middle of one. When Iraq was purely a military operation it took us what ... 2-3 weeks to secure the ENTIRE country?
I most certainly HOPE your pitiful-ass army tries to send the US home. As previously stated, fools like you would get a sudden wake-up as to just what you DON'T have.
Our present boarder with Iraq is 2.000 to 5.000 meters high:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/Turkey_topo.jpg/800px-Turkey_topo.jpg
It looks like this:
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/5777/bgedef12232005om9okpw1.jpg
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6350/aaec0013978vuux2.jpg
You on the other side can not even secure boarders to Syria and Iran which are lowlands. Not Mountains as Turkey's boarder.
So can you secure the boarder to Syria and Iran? If yes, is your administration only making propaganda when saying Terrorists cross from there?
Now to Turkey again:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/22/opinion/edhoge.php
injured people not included.
Now to USA war planes. These were F-16 Block 30, which are deployed in Kerkük.
http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=...ghlight=&sid=fc9e0b3f707efb628f4ff4c6fb87931f
Would have been easy to shoot them down, they are not up-to-date.
If the F-16's were intercepted i do not know, but i think not as these planes where 4 minutes in airspace. This is too less for Turkish fighters going to air from base and fly to Iraq boarder.
This was just an spy mission by USA besides satellites spying the force-build up by Turkish army on the boarder.
Agree. I think informations which were collected by US pilots will acknowledge your quotation.
Invade Iraq and not only will your military be made to regret it, but Turkey could then forget about getting in the EU (which so far the US has backed), and would likely be expelled from NATO (your participation is useless anyway). Forget about the 30 F-16 for which Turkey just signed a deal with the US. Forget about the 100 F35 JSF that Turkey has invested in, and hopes to have America deliver by 2014 (maybe we'll send those to Greece). Turkey will have to be content with second rate stuff from its old enemies in the new Soviet Union. Or maybe you can buy some French fighters. But then again, you won't be able to do that because it is the French that want to keep Turkey out of the EU. Looks like you'll be stuck with the new Soviets. Your country is no ally of the US. From blocking the 4th ID's northern route at the beginning of the Iraq war in 2003, to the hateful lies expressed daily in your media about America, we have come to expect nothing from Turkey. Invade Iraq and you will have a Kurdish problem forever. Hopefully, reasonable people in your country will prevail, and Turkey will stay on its side of the border.
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=45217Turkish General Says Many NATO Members Support Terrorism in Turkey
"Who feeds terrorist groups? Who's behind them? That's what we need to look at," said Yasar Buyukanit, Turkey's military chief.
(...)
Military strategies get build-up on 3 parameters:
- geography/location
- force/units
- time
You can add to this the strategy of engaging Terrorists where they are rather then doing this in your own country.
Turkey is in this position where it is forced to fight Terrorists in its own country, as so far Turkey was not willing to take relations at risk with USA by marching into Iraq.
Times change and read the International herald Tribune Link, which says in your english language understandable to you, that since the beginning of last year 600 people died by these Terrorist cross-boarder raids.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/22/opinion/edhoge.php
Include to this the injured people and family members of murdered people then you maybe can imagine what my position on this forum is.
Last week in Turkish capital exploded a PKK suicide bomber with A4 explosive from Iraq killing 6 people wounding more then 100 people. So you can hope for reasonable people in Turkey like you wish, mechanism to solve this issue by goodwill and expectation from USA and waiting is clearly over.
You all can small talk Turkiye, but we have duty to protect our people and follow our interests.
We can not pass this duty to other states and rely on their goodwill.
We are an independent state and can not loose our threat potential to enemies in this region by letting Terrorists play with Turkey by hit-and-run strategy without fearing consequences where they ex-territorial hide.
And this should be clear to all of you, when we go in, we are not going to leave soon and nobody will force us out.
This move will collide with USA interests and Turkey marching into Iraq is a disaster for USA. So for years you had the possibility and legal responsibilty as occupiers to hinder Terrorist attacks from North-Iraq carried into Turkey.
Do you really expect us to wait, wait and further wait whilst Terror is being carried in our country and being exercised harming people? If you do expect this then we disagree completely.
So what is your solution asking rhetorically as your administration did not even tried for a solution the ongoing years and therefore this Terrorism against Turkey will be solved by military action?
Should we negotiate with Terrorists is this your solution? Why do you not negotiate with Al-Qaeda? Let us then arrange diplomatic negotiations between Bush and Osama Bin Laden.
The situation is like 1998. Almost same coordinates but Iraq taking this time Syria's role.
Back then we also massed 150.000 Soldiers on Syrian boarder and made them ultimatum to force PKK out of their country and stop supporting PKK-Terrorism.
Syrians did take this serious and threat-potential did the rest.
Now it is same with Iraq.
We can not let our threat-potential going to comedy as this will influence our security in the long run. We have to take a stance, that every supporter of Anti-Turkish Terrorists will get punished.
Your so-called "lightsource of democracy in Mid-East (Iraq)" is a shit against us. Today and in the past as we did marched into Iraq in 80s and 90s multiple times.
Nothing they could do.
Today the difference is USA. When PKK is able to have their bases, logistic + training centers in North-Iraq then it is because USA lets this happen.
Why do you therefore feel in a position to criticize Turkish anti-americanism?
Where is the point in urging Anti-Americanism in Turkey, when Terrorists attack Turkey from US-occupied Iraq and whilst USA bombed kurdish Ansar Al-Islam in North-Iraq it does not so to PKK, which is by USA itself recognized as a Terrorist organization?
It is like our generals say, nowhere on earth, not even in Afghanistan Terrorists are acting so freely as in Northern-Iraq.
For this to recognize as an American you have to open your eyes and see that Terrorism is being carried from Iraq to Turkey and these terrorists act there freely without fear of consequences from either USA or Kurdish administration.
But as Turks we do not wonder about this situation, as our so-called NATO-allies instrumentalist Terror against Turkey.
It is not the question about Terrorists theirself, but who feeds, harbours and support them.
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=45217
So you should realize that this situation will not go on like it is. And i am angry myself that so far nothing has been done. Namely marching into Iraq.
The contrast between History against our neighbours who supported Terrorism and cautiously acting of today shows what is at stake for Turkey by marching into Iraq whilst USA is still in. Complete destruction of relations and possibility to face, face to face. Either direct or indirect. You know, there can be elements too, which can provoke conflict between Turkish and US troops in Iraq.
Only this reason postponed our counter-actions to this point.
There is no doubt, that we tried to postpone our actions to win more occasions to convince USA to act against these terrorists. This strategy/mechanism of only talking does not lead to results.
So we will act, there is no doubt about this, and comeing back to the beginning of my post it is all about 3 parameters: location, force and time.
Time will tell.
So long you do not have any credibility to criticize anti-Americanism as long as i do not offend you personally. I, and there i can speak for my nation, do not take this feeling reasonless out of my ass.
@GunnyL
US pilots have overall most flight hours in F-16.
Turkey has second most flight experience with F-16 in the world.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_pilots_airforce-TUAF.html
Plus Turkish pilots engage over Aegean in dogfights on daily basis with Greece fighter pilots.
Both nations lost total around 30 jets in such dogfight actions by crashes in the air. Last Greek dead pilot happened in 2006
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/05/23/greece.crash/index.html
Just search in Youtube with words "dogfight" and you will find enough material over the aegean.
Do not underestimate other forces especially NATO forces of this size, my advice to you. In knowledge that USA will infect more damage on Turkey, we will cause you casualties in dimensions, your liberal people will revolt in Washington to bring your Soldiers home while 1 day of actions is even not passed.
My advice to you is to knock some of that nationalist blindness out of your skull and get a reality check. Please DO try and remember that a good percentage of your so-called "self-defense" requires US to do it for you.
I see you are also not up to snuff on how the US military is deployed. The liberals in Washington have NO say in military retaliation. And just in case you've missed the past 6 years, there's a Texas redneck who DOES have all the say, and hsi past actions have not been to take any shit off two-bit, third world crapholes.
What i should remeber?
Remember implies you are pointing to past events, when you talk about security. To first mind comes the cold-war if you do mean this:
Turkey may not be the reason the USA won the cold war but it surely is the reason why the Soviets didn't win the cold war. Turkey was the key country that prevented socialist Middle Eastern states from connecting with Soviet Eastern Europe and the Soviet Caucasus.
You understand? Turkey not takeing place at the side of NATO meant that the old world would be a communist Eastern Europe, Communist Caucasus, socialist Mid-Eastern states and communist Caucasus without territorial interruption.
http://www.steinbergrecherche.com/20060412 eurasia grau.jpg
Al Qaeda has set off bombs in Turkey, yet you do nothing to help fight Al Qaeda in Iraq. Now the PKK sets off bombs in Turkey and you want to invade Iraq. Tell me, what is the difference? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Istanbul_bombingscanavar said:You can add to this the strategy of engaging Terrorists where they are rather then doing this in your own country.
Complete article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070530/ts_nm/turkey_kurds_iraq_dc
Turkish Army Build-up Fuels Anxiety on Iraq Border
By Daren Butler
Turkey sent more tanks to its border with Iraq on Wednesday in a military build-up that is fuelling U.S. concern about a possible incursion into northern Iraq against Kurdish rebels.
A group of 20 tanks loaded on trucks emerged from army barracks in Mardin near Syria and headed towards the Iraqi border in southeast Turkey, already the scene of a major army offensive against rebels of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).
Speculation about an imminent incursion into Iraq has grown since Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said last week he saw eye to eye with the army over possible military action, despite unease in the United States, Turkey's NATO ally, about such a move.
Where were these guys when Al Qaeda set off bombs in Turkey? Why did they not help America fight Al Qaeda in Iraq? Now because it is the PKK they want to invade Iraq.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3172228.stmTurkey to send troops to Iraq
The Turkish parliament has voted to send troops to help US-led forces in neighbouring Iraq - alarming some members of the US-appointed Governing Council in Baghdad.
Turkish troops
Turkey has sent troops into Iraq in the past to pursue Kurdish rebels
Turkish MPs backed the deployment by 358 votes, with 183 votes against, a day after the government decided to send up to 10,000 troops to help stabilise Iraq.
Iraq's 15-member Governing Council initially said it opposed the Turkish move, but a formal statement on it was delayed and the Council later spoke only of "concerns" about Turkish troops.
The Council is due to discuss the deployment with Iraq's US administrator Paul Bremer on Wednesday, Council President Iyad Allawi said.
A Kurdish member of the Council, Mahmoud Othman, described the deployment as "the wrong thing to do", saying "it does not add to security, it is not useful".
http://old.krg.org/docs/articles/goldberg-michelle-betraying-again-oct03.aspU.S. plan to send 10,000 Turkish troops to Iraq has Kurdish leaders outraged -- and analysts of all stripes incredulous at its folly
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3172228.stmTurkish officials have said the troops could be deployed mainly in Sunni Muslim areas of central Iraq, where US forces have been attacked repeatedly.