Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians

[martybegan]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

At least when it comes to violence, there has to be one law both for Palestinians and Israelis in the territories. If the government really means its promises to fight Jewish terror and extremist violence with determination from now on, there is a simple and easily implemented step it must take: It must ensure that Jewish residents of the territories who are suspected of offenses against security and public order will be investigated and tried under the same laws – and in the same military courts – as their Arab neighbors who are suspected of the same offenses.

Nowhere in the Israeli security legislation for the territories is it stated that the laws apply only to Arab residents of the territories and not to Jews or to Israeli citizens. The policy, as is well known, is to arrest and try settlers in the civilian courts on the other side of the Green Line. This policy can be changed without any need for legislation.

Of course the thought that Israeli citizens will be tried in the military courts is not pleasant, but in the reality in which two populations are living in the territories under two different systems of laws and legislation – a natural and fundamentally perverse outcome of the settlement project, from a legal and moral perspective – it is impossible to do anything in the area that will not be off-kilter. The least weird step that can be taken is, as noted, to determine that at least in matters concerning violence, security and public order, there will be one law and one court for everyone who lives under the Israeli military government.

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

 

[ogibillm]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

At least when it comes to violence, there has to be one law both for Palestinians and Israelis in the territories. If the government really means its promises to fight Jewish terror and extremist violence with determination from now on, there is a simple and easily implemented step it must take: It must ensure that Jewish residents of the territories who are suspected of offenses against security and public order will be investigated and tried under the same laws – and in the same military courts – as their Arab neighbors who are suspected of the same offenses.

Nowhere in the Israeli security legislation for the territories is it stated that the laws apply only to Arab residents of the territories and not to Jews or to Israeli citizens. The policy, as is well known, is to arrest and try settlers in the civilian courts on the other side of the Green Line. This policy can be changed without any need for legislation.

Of course the thought that Israeli citizens will be tried in the military courts is not pleasant, but in the reality in which two populations are living in the territories under two different systems of laws and legislation – a natural and fundamentally perverse outcome of the settlement project, from a legal and moral perspective – it is impossible to do anything in the area that will not be off-kilter. The least weird step that can be taken is, as noted, to determine that at least in matters concerning violence, security and public order, there will be one law and one court for everyone who lives under the Israeli military government.

Why when they are not under military authority like the palestinians.

cool. so different laws for different people...
where have i heard of that before?

 

[Phoenall]

Just another islamonazi propaganda source that parrots your islamomarxist propaganda, so this is why you use it it and try to pass it off as being non partisan. The authors bio says it all Susan Abulhawa is a Palestinian-American writer and human rights activist.

Indeed, Susan Abulhawa, always on point.

And is just another islamonazi propagandist so not unbiased and definitely partisan.

Listing historic facts makes one a propagandist?

It does when the facts are based on islamonazi propaganda and not on the truth and reality.

I knew most of that before she came along. Why do you want to make something religious about it?

So you admit to knowing it is all islamonazi propaganda, it is the islamonazi's that are making it religious when they cry out alahu akhbar every time they attack.

 

[Phoenall]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

At least when it comes to violence, there has to be one law both for Palestinians and Israelis in the territories. If the government really means its promises to fight Jewish terror and extremist violence with determination from now on, there is a simple and easily implemented step it must take: It must ensure that Jewish residents of the territories who are suspected of offenses against security and public order will be investigated and tried under the same laws – and in the same military courts – as their Arab neighbors who are suspected of the same offenses.

Nowhere in the Israeli security legislation for the territories is it stated that the laws apply only to Arab residents of the territories and not to Jews or to Israeli citizens. The policy, as is well known, is to arrest and try settlers in the civilian courts on the other side of the Green Line. This policy can be changed without any need for legislation.

Of course the thought that Israeli citizens will be tried in the military courts is not pleasant, but in the reality in which two populations are living in the territories under two different systems of laws and legislation – a natural and fundamentally perverse outcome of the settlement project, from a legal and moral perspective – it is impossible to do anything in the area that will not be off-kilter. The least weird step that can be taken is, as noted, to determine that at least in matters concerning violence, security and public order, there will be one law and one court for everyone who lives under the Israeli military government.

Why when they are not under military authority like the palestinians.

cool. so different laws for different people...
where have i heard of that before?

Try the UK where muslims were treated less harshly than Jews under the last Labour government. Or in Islamic nations when non muslims could be beaten to death for allowing their shadow to fall on a muslim.

 

[Coyote]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

At least when it comes to violence, there has to be one law both for Palestinians and Israelis in the territories. If the government really means its promises to fight Jewish terror and extremist violence with determination from now on, there is a simple and easily implemented step it must take: It must ensure that Jewish residents of the territories who are suspected of offenses against security and public order will be investigated and tried under the same laws – and in the same military courts – as their Arab neighbors who are suspected of the same offenses.

Nowhere in the Israeli security legislation for the territories is it stated that the laws apply only to Arab residents of the territories and not to Jews or to Israeli citizens. The policy, as is well known, is to arrest and try settlers in the civilian courts on the other side of the Green Line. This policy can be changed without any need for legislation.

Of course the thought that Israeli citizens will be tried in the military courts is not pleasant, but in the reality in which two populations are living in the territories under two different systems of laws and legislation – a natural and fundamentally perverse outcome of the settlement project, from a legal and moral perspective – it is impossible to do anything in the area that will not be off-kilter. The least weird step that can be taken is, as noted, to determine that at least in matters concerning violence, security and public order, there will be one law and one court for everyone who lives under the Israeli military government.

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

 

[martybegan]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

At least when it comes to violence, there has to be one law both for Palestinians and Israelis in the territories. If the government really means its promises to fight Jewish terror and extremist violence with determination from now on, there is a simple and easily implemented step it must take: It must ensure that Jewish residents of the territories who are suspected of offenses against security and public order will be investigated and tried under the same laws – and in the same military courts – as their Arab neighbors who are suspected of the same offenses.

Nowhere in the Israeli security legislation for the territories is it stated that the laws apply only to Arab residents of the territories and not to Jews or to Israeli citizens. The policy, as is well known, is to arrest and try settlers in the civilian courts on the other side of the Green Line. This policy can be changed without any need for legislation.

Of course the thought that Israeli citizens will be tried in the military courts is not pleasant, but in the reality in which two populations are living in the territories under two different systems of laws and legislation – a natural and fundamentally perverse outcome of the settlement project, from a legal and moral perspective – it is impossible to do anything in the area that will not be off-kilter. The least weird step that can be taken is, as noted, to determine that at least in matters concerning violence, security and public order, there will be one law and one court for everyone who lives under the Israeli military government.

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Are we talking about trials or police procedures? They appear to be two different things.

 

[Coyote]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

At least when it comes to violence, there has to be one law both for Palestinians and Israelis in the territories. If the government really means its promises to fight Jewish terror and extremist violence with determination from now on, there is a simple and easily implemented step it must take: It must ensure that Jewish residents of the territories who are suspected of offenses against security and public order will be investigated and tried under the same laws – and in the same military courts – as their Arab neighbors who are suspected of the same offenses.

Nowhere in the Israeli security legislation for the territories is it stated that the laws apply only to Arab residents of the territories and not to Jews or to Israeli citizens. The policy, as is well known, is to arrest and try settlers in the civilian courts on the other side of the Green Line. This policy can be changed without any need for legislation.

Of course the thought that Israeli citizens will be tried in the military courts is not pleasant, but in the reality in which two populations are living in the territories under two different systems of laws and legislation – a natural and fundamentally perverse outcome of the settlement project, from a legal and moral perspective – it is impossible to do anything in the area that will not be off-kilter. The least weird step that can be taken is, as noted, to determine that at least in matters concerning violence, security and public order, there will be one law and one court for everyone who lives under the Israeli military government.

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Are we talking about trials or police procedures? They appear to be two different things.

Police procedures are part of it - under the military system they don't seem to have the same rights as juveniles in the civil system.

 

[martybegan]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

At least when it comes to violence, there has to be one law both for Palestinians and Israelis in the territories. If the government really means its promises to fight Jewish terror and extremist violence with determination from now on, there is a simple and easily implemented step it must take: It must ensure that Jewish residents of the territories who are suspected of offenses against security and public order will be investigated and tried under the same laws – and in the same military courts – as their Arab neighbors who are suspected of the same offenses.

Nowhere in the Israeli security legislation for the territories is it stated that the laws apply only to Arab residents of the territories and not to Jews or to Israeli citizens. The policy, as is well known, is to arrest and try settlers in the civilian courts on the other side of the Green Line. This policy can be changed without any need for legislation.

Of course the thought that Israeli citizens will be tried in the military courts is not pleasant, but in the reality in which two populations are living in the territories under two different systems of laws and legislation – a natural and fundamentally perverse outcome of the settlement project, from a legal and moral perspective – it is impossible to do anything in the area that will not be off-kilter. The least weird step that can be taken is, as noted, to determine that at least in matters concerning violence, security and public order, there will be one law and one court for everyone who lives under the Israeli military government.

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Are we talking about trials or police procedures? They appear to be two different things.

Police procedures are part of it - under the military system they don't seem to have the same rights as juveniles in the civil system.

Actually if you go to the end of an article Israel in general doesn't require you to get a lawyer if you ask for one.

 

[Coyote]

Palestinians Find Little Justice In Israeli Military Courts - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Most Palestinian detainees brought to Ofer spend only a few minutes in front of a judge — an Israeli army officer, either on active or reserve duty. Wearing brown Israeli prison uniforms and shackled at their hands and feet, the prisoners' hearings are held entirely in Hebrew, with translations to and from Arabic by Israeli soldiers.

“The translation in these courts is not professional. There’s a problem with evidential procedures and the fact that they rely on secret materials. These are not fair trials,” Francis told Al-Monitor.

“Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, when Israel immediately founded the military orders, which also established the military courts, they started to define all political activities in the occupied territories as illegal, including political parties, demonstrations, even publishing certain books.”

<snip>...Almost 100% conviction rate

In 2011, Haaretz reported that almost all cases heard by Israeli military courts — 99.74% — resulted in convictions. The military appeals courts also overwhelming sided with Israeli army prosecutors, with 67% of appeals filed by the state accepted, versus only 33% filed by the defense.

Israeli human rights group B'Tselem also reported that of the 835 Palestinian minors that were arrested and tried in military courts between 2005 and 2010 on charges of throwing stones, only one was acquitted.

This reality highlights the widespread challenges attorneys face when trying to defend Palestinians charged within this system.

For many, especially attorneys who hold West Bank-only IDs, the first step of physically accessing Israeli prisons and military courts to speak with their clients is difficult. Military orders are also not made readily available to the lawyers, and transcripts of detainee interrogations are often incomplete and also difficult to access.

“There’s no legal handbook you can buy in a military bookstore. There’s almost no access to the laws or jurisprudence of the military courts,” said Israeli attorney Gaby Lasky, who regularly represents Palestinian detainees, in a report titled, “Defending Palestinian Prisoners.”

Secret evidence is also often used, which makes building a defense nearly impossible. This is especially true in cases of Palestinians held under Israeli administrative-detention orders, which allow Israel to hold Palestinians without charge or trial for indefinite periods and without disclosing any evidence to the defense on “security” grounds.

Unequal application of the law

Although they technically live within the same geographical area, Palestinians and Israeli settlers living in the West Bank are subject to two separate legal systems: Palestinians are subject to the military courts, and settlers are governed by Israeli civil law.

Even after dozens of Israeli settlers vandalized vehicles on an Israeli military base and assaulted a top Israeli army commander in 2011, the Israeli military opposed a government suggestion that settlers also be tried in the military courts.

Prosecuting Israeli settlers in military courts would, IDF sources argued, “create further political rifts within the army, which they characterized as a strategic problem for Israel's military.”

“If a settler violates the law, or if a settler attacks a Palestinian or kills a Palestinian, they would be subject to the civil system inside Israel and receive all the protections [therein],” explained Addameer’s Sahar Francis.

“The Israelis were using this system and the policy of imprisonment to target hundreds of thousands of Palestinians all these years. This is what makes the cases of the prisoners very important. It needs lots of effort in order to protect [Palestinians] against such violations and grave breaches for the Fourth Geneva Convention.”

 

[Phoenall]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

At least when it comes to violence, there has to be one law both for Palestinians and Israelis in the territories. If the government really means its promises to fight Jewish terror and extremist violence with determination from now on, there is a simple and easily implemented step it must take: It must ensure that Jewish residents of the territories who are suspected of offenses against security and public order will be investigated and tried under the same laws – and in the same military courts – as their Arab neighbors who are suspected of the same offenses.

Nowhere in the Israeli security legislation for the territories is it stated that the laws apply only to Arab residents of the territories and not to Jews or to Israeli citizens. The policy, as is well known, is to arrest and try settlers in the civilian courts on the other side of the Green Line. This policy can be changed without any need for legislation.

Of course the thought that Israeli citizens will be tried in the military courts is not pleasant, but in the reality in which two populations are living in the territories under two different systems of laws and legislation – a natural and fundamentally perverse outcome of the settlement project, from a legal and moral perspective – it is impossible to do anything in the area that will not be off-kilter. The least weird step that can be taken is, as noted, to determine that at least in matters concerning violence, security and public order, there will be one law and one court for everyone who lives under the Israeli military government.

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Because they are not subject to martial law under the Geneva conventions, it is that simple a concept to understand.

 

[Phoenall]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

At least when it comes to violence, there has to be one law both for Palestinians and Israelis in the territories. If the government really means its promises to fight Jewish terror and extremist violence with determination from now on, there is a simple and easily implemented step it must take: It must ensure that Jewish residents of the territories who are suspected of offenses against security and public order will be investigated and tried under the same laws – and in the same military courts – as their Arab neighbors who are suspected of the same offenses.

Nowhere in the Israeli security legislation for the territories is it stated that the laws apply only to Arab residents of the territories and not to Jews or to Israeli citizens. The policy, as is well known, is to arrest and try settlers in the civilian courts on the other side of the Green Line. This policy can be changed without any need for legislation.

Of course the thought that Israeli citizens will be tried in the military courts is not pleasant, but in the reality in which two populations are living in the territories under two different systems of laws and legislation – a natural and fundamentally perverse outcome of the settlement project, from a legal and moral perspective – it is impossible to do anything in the area that will not be off-kilter. The least weird step that can be taken is, as noted, to determine that at least in matters concerning violence, security and public order, there will be one law and one court for everyone who lives under the Israeli military government.

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Are we talking about trials or police procedures? They appear to be two different things.

Police procedures are part of it - under the military system they don't seem to have the same rights as juveniles in the civil system.

Correct read the Geneva conventions

 

[Coyote]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

At least when it comes to violence, there has to be one law both for Palestinians and Israelis in the territories. If the government really means its promises to fight Jewish terror and extremist violence with determination from now on, there is a simple and easily implemented step it must take: It must ensure that Jewish residents of the territories who are suspected of offenses against security and public order will be investigated and tried under the same laws – and in the same military courts – as their Arab neighbors who are suspected of the same offenses.

Nowhere in the Israeli security legislation for the territories is it stated that the laws apply only to Arab residents of the territories and not to Jews or to Israeli citizens. The policy, as is well known, is to arrest and try settlers in the civilian courts on the other side of the Green Line. This policy can be changed without any need for legislation.

Of course the thought that Israeli citizens will be tried in the military courts is not pleasant, but in the reality in which two populations are living in the territories under two different systems of laws and legislation – a natural and fundamentally perverse outcome of the settlement project, from a legal and moral perspective – it is impossible to do anything in the area that will not be off-kilter. The least weird step that can be taken is, as noted, to determine that at least in matters concerning violence, security and public order, there will be one law and one court for everyone who lives under the Israeli military government.

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Because they are not subject to martial law under the Geneva conventions, it is that simple a concept to understand.

So you use that as an excuse to condone the abuse of children? Israel routinely ignores the Geneva conventions particlarly in the treatment of Palestinian children.

From the article I quoted earlier:

Overstepping international law

Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, an occupying power may suspend local laws to maintain public order, or when these laws constitute a threat to the occupying power’s security or impede carrying out the Convention itself. An occupying power may also set up “properly constituted, nonpolitical” military courts, to be used only if local courts do not function effectively.

In 2010, however, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Independence of Judges and Lawyers found that the “legal foundations and practices of the military justice system [in Israel] do not comply with international standards” and that “the exercise of jurisdiction by a military court over civilians not performing military tasks is normally inconsistent with the fair, impartial and independent administration of justice.”

According to researcher Sharon Weill, author of an article entitled, “The judicial arm of the occupation: the Israeli military courts in the occupied territories,” the Israeli military court system regularly oversteps its bounds under international law.

“Matters which should be under the jurisdiction of a civil court (Palestinian or Israeli) are in many cases dealt with under the Israeli military system — a system that enjoys less independence and impartiality and does not effectively safeguard the individual rights of accused persons and suspects,” Weill found.

“This interference by the military legal system, taking broader territorial control than is authorized by international humanitarian law, is no more legitimate than any other kind of military domination merely because it is affected by a legal system.”


Read more: Palestinians Find Little Justice In Israeli Military Courts - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East​

 

[Phoenall]

Palestinians Find Little Justice In Israeli Military Courts - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Most Palestinian detainees brought to Ofer spend only a few minutes in front of a judge — an Israeli army officer, either on active or reserve duty. Wearing brown Israeli prison uniforms and shackled at their hands and feet, the prisoners' hearings are held entirely in Hebrew, with translations to and from Arabic by Israeli soldiers.

“The translation in these courts is not professional. There’s a problem with evidential procedures and the fact that they rely on secret materials. These are not fair trials,” Francis told Al-Monitor.

“Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, when Israel immediately founded the military orders, which also established the military courts, they started to define all political activities in the occupied territories as illegal, including political parties, demonstrations, even publishing certain books.”

<snip>...Almost 100% conviction rate

In 2011, Haaretz reported that almost all cases heard by Israeli military courts — 99.74% — resulted in convictions. The military appeals courts also overwhelming sided with Israeli army prosecutors, with 67% of appeals filed by the state accepted, versus only 33% filed by the defense.

Israeli human rights group B'Tselem also reported that of the 835 Palestinian minors that were arrested and tried in military courts between 2005 and 2010 on charges of throwing stones, only one was acquitted.

This reality highlights the widespread challenges attorneys face when trying to defend Palestinians charged within this system.

For many, especially attorneys who hold West Bank-only IDs, the first step of physically accessing Israeli prisons and military courts to speak with their clients is difficult. Military orders are also not made readily available to the lawyers, and transcripts of detainee interrogations are often incomplete and also difficult to access.

“There’s no legal handbook you can buy in a military bookstore. There’s almost no access to the laws or jurisprudence of the military courts,” said Israeli attorney Gaby Lasky, who regularly represents Palestinian detainees, in a report titled, “Defending Palestinian Prisoners.”

Secret evidence is also often used, which makes building a defense nearly impossible. This is especially true in cases of Palestinians held under Israeli administrative-detention orders, which allow Israel to hold Palestinians without charge or trial for indefinite periods and without disclosing any evidence to the defense on “security” grounds.

Unequal application of the law

Although they technically live within the same geographical area, Palestinians and Israeli settlers living in the West Bank are subject to two separate legal systems: Palestinians are subject to the military courts, and settlers are governed by Israeli civil law.

Even after dozens of Israeli settlers vandalized vehicles on an Israeli military base and assaulted a top Israeli army commander in 2011, the Israeli military opposed a government suggestion that settlers also be tried in the military courts.

Prosecuting Israeli settlers in military courts would, IDF sources argued, “create further political rifts within the army, which they characterized as a strategic problem for Israel's military.”

“If a settler violates the law, or if a settler attacks a Palestinian or kills a Palestinian, they would be subject to the civil system inside Israel and receive all the protections [therein],” explained Addameer’s Sahar Francis.

“The Israelis were using this system and the policy of imprisonment to target hundreds of thousands of Palestinians all these years. This is what makes the cases of the prisoners very important. It needs lots of effort in order to protect [Palestinians] against such violations and grave breaches for the Fourth Geneva Convention.”

As it states in the Geneva conventions

 

[Phoenall]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

At least when it comes to violence, there has to be one law both for Palestinians and Israelis in the territories. If the government really means its promises to fight Jewish terror and extremist violence with determination from now on, there is a simple and easily implemented step it must take: It must ensure that Jewish residents of the territories who are suspected of offenses against security and public order will be investigated and tried under the same laws – and in the same military courts – as their Arab neighbors who are suspected of the same offenses.

Nowhere in the Israeli security legislation for the territories is it stated that the laws apply only to Arab residents of the territories and not to Jews or to Israeli citizens. The policy, as is well known, is to arrest and try settlers in the civilian courts on the other side of the Green Line. This policy can be changed without any need for legislation.

Of course the thought that Israeli citizens will be tried in the military courts is not pleasant, but in the reality in which two populations are living in the territories under two different systems of laws and legislation – a natural and fundamentally perverse outcome of the settlement project, from a legal and moral perspective – it is impossible to do anything in the area that will not be off-kilter. The least weird step that can be taken is, as noted, to determine that at least in matters concerning violence, security and public order, there will be one law and one court for everyone who lives under the Israeli military government.

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Because they are not subject to martial law under the Geneva conventions, it is that simple a concept to understand.

So you use that as an excuse to condone the abuse of children? Israel routinely ignores the Geneva conventions particlarly in the treatment of Palestinian children.

No it is the reason for the disparity. Do provide examples of the Israeli's being in breach of the Geneva conventions with the actual Geneva conventions in full. Not the usual half addressed and incomplete sections that meet with your POV.

 

[Coyote]

Palestinians Find Little Justice In Israeli Military Courts - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Most Palestinian detainees brought to Ofer spend only a few minutes in front of a judge — an Israeli army officer, either on active or reserve duty. Wearing brown Israeli prison uniforms and shackled at their hands and feet, the prisoners' hearings are held entirely in Hebrew, with translations to and from Arabic by Israeli soldiers.

“The translation in these courts is not professional. There’s a problem with evidential procedures and the fact that they rely on secret materials. These are not fair trials,” Francis told Al-Monitor.

“Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, when Israel immediately founded the military orders, which also established the military courts, they started to define all political activities in the occupied territories as illegal, including political parties, demonstrations, even publishing certain books.”

<snip>...Almost 100% conviction rate

In 2011, Haaretz reported that almost all cases heard by Israeli military courts — 99.74% — resulted in convictions. The military appeals courts also overwhelming sided with Israeli army prosecutors, with 67% of appeals filed by the state accepted, versus only 33% filed by the defense.

Israeli human rights group B'Tselem also reported that of the 835 Palestinian minors that were arrested and tried in military courts between 2005 and 2010 on charges of throwing stones, only one was acquitted.

This reality highlights the widespread challenges attorneys face when trying to defend Palestinians charged within this system.

For many, especially attorneys who hold West Bank-only IDs, the first step of physically accessing Israeli prisons and military courts to speak with their clients is difficult. Military orders are also not made readily available to the lawyers, and transcripts of detainee interrogations are often incomplete and also difficult to access.

“There’s no legal handbook you can buy in a military bookstore. There’s almost no access to the laws or jurisprudence of the military courts,” said Israeli attorney Gaby Lasky, who regularly represents Palestinian detainees, in a report titled, “Defending Palestinian Prisoners.”

Secret evidence is also often used, which makes building a defense nearly impossible. This is especially true in cases of Palestinians held under Israeli administrative-detention orders, which allow Israel to hold Palestinians without charge or trial for indefinite periods and without disclosing any evidence to the defense on “security” grounds.

Unequal application of the law

Although they technically live within the same geographical area, Palestinians and Israeli settlers living in the West Bank are subject to two separate legal systems: Palestinians are subject to the military courts, and settlers are governed by Israeli civil law.

Even after dozens of Israeli settlers vandalized vehicles on an Israeli military base and assaulted a top Israeli army commander in 2011, the Israeli military opposed a government suggestion that settlers also be tried in the military courts.

Prosecuting Israeli settlers in military courts would, IDF sources argued, “create further political rifts within the army, which they characterized as a strategic problem for Israel's military.”

“If a settler violates the law, or if a settler attacks a Palestinian or kills a Palestinian, they would be subject to the civil system inside Israel and receive all the protections [therein],” explained Addameer’s Sahar Francis.

“The Israelis were using this system and the policy of imprisonment to target hundreds of thousands of Palestinians all these years. This is what makes the cases of the prisoners very important. It needs lots of effort in order to protect [Palestinians] against such violations and grave breaches for the Fourth Geneva Convention.”

As it states in the Geneva conventions

From UNICEF's report:

All children in contact with judicial systems should be treated with dignity and
respect at all times. For several years, national lawyers, human rights organizations,
United Nations experts and treaty bodies have been publishing reports of ill treatment
of children who come in contact with the Israeli military detention system.
Following an increasing number of allegations of ill-treatment of children in military
detention, UNICEF has conducted a review of practices related to children who
come into contact with the military detention system, from apprehension, to court
proceedings and outcome.

The review further considers whether the military detention system is in conformity
with the Convention on the Rights of the Child as well as the Convention against
Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Following
an overview of policies and norms related to the prohibition of ill-treatment in
international law, the paper presents the structure and operation of the Israeli
military detention system, including the legal framework, establishment of a juvenile
military court, age of criminal responsibility and penalties under military law. The
paper also reviews the legal safeguards in place against ill-treatment under military
law and discusses their conformity with the norms, guarantees and safeguards found
in international law. Subsequently, the treatment of children in the military detention
system is presented, following the passage of children through the system.
This paper is a result of this review and analysis of practices. It concludes that the
ill-treatment of children who come in contact with the military detention system
appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized throughout the process,
from the moment of arrest until the child’s prosecution and eventual conviction and
sentencing.

It is understood that in no other country are children systematically tried by juvenile
military courts that, by definition, fall short of providing the necessary guarantees
to ensure respect for their rights. All children prosecuted for offences they allegedly
committed should be treated in accordance with international juvenile justice
standards, which provide them with special protection. Most of these protections are
enshrined in the Convention on the Rights of the Child.​

 

[Coyote]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Because they are not subject to martial law under the Geneva conventions, it is that simple a concept to understand.

So you use that as an excuse to condone the abuse of children? Israel routinely ignores the Geneva conventions particlarly in the treatment of Palestinian children.

No it is the reason for the disparity. Do provide examples of the Israeli's being in breach of the Geneva conventions with the actual Geneva conventions in full. Not the usual half addressed and incomplete sections that meet with your POV.

How about *you* provide evidence that this treatment of children in the military justice system is in compliance with the Geneva conventions?

 

[Coyote]

Why not? Sounds like a good idea.

Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians Opinion Haaretz Daily Newspaper Israel News

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Because they are not subject to martial law under the Geneva conventions, it is that simple a concept to understand.

So you use that as an excuse to condone the abuse of children? Israel routinely ignores the Geneva conventions particlarly in the treatment of Palestinian children.

No it is the reason for the disparity. Do provide examples of the Israeli's being in breach of the Geneva conventions with the actual Geneva conventions in full. Not the usual half addressed and incomplete sections that meet with your POV.

Here they are in full: Geneva Conventions | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute

In regards to children: Customary IHL - Practice Relating to Rule 135. Children
States Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for rules of international humanitarian law applicable to them in armed conflicts which are relevant to the child.

Children and International Humanitarian Law: Children protected under international humanitarian law - ICRC

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, Phoenall, et al,

It has been several years back since we've seriously discussed the "Children" (minors - un-emancipated) issue.

I think the lack of progress on this, and many similar issues, have been a result of a very intensive shift in the Israeli sympathy and frustration with the Hostile Arab Palestinian. The Israelis have been accused of being the belligerent Occupation Authority for so long, that the Israeli doesn't really care any more. OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

I often wondered, given the believe structure of the Jewish People, and the civil nature of the Israeli people in general, why the State of Israel did not build and staff a state-of-the-art, combination Protection and Detention Facility, Treatment and Youth Rehabilitation Center, Basic Education and Vocational Training Activity; for 2000 offenders. And offer an opportunity for apprenticeship programs and grants for college.

The Israelis could be the showcase for the entire region. By far, such a program would have some great rewards down the road, and the cost would be minimal, say as compared to the cost of a flight of F-16 ($15M each).

My conclusion has been that the Israelis believe that the Arab Palestinian would not appreciate an such move; and in fact would object.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, Phoenall, et al,

It has been several years back since we've seriously discussed the "Children" (minors - un-emancipated) issue.

I think the lack of progress on this, and many similar issues, have been a result of a very intensive shift in the Israeli sympathy and frustration with the Hostile Arab Palestinian. The Israelis have been accused of being the belligerent Occupation Authority for so long, that the Israeli doesn't really care any more. OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

I often wondered, given the believe structure of the Jewish People, and the civil nature of the Israeli people in general, why the State of Israel did not build and staff a state-of-the-art, combination Protection and Detention Facility, Treatment and Youth Rehabilitation Center, Basic Education and Vocational Training Activity; for 2000 offenders. And offer an opportunity for apprenticeship programs and grants for college.

The Israelis could be the showcase for the entire region. By far, such a program would have some great rewards down the road, and the cost would be minimal, say as compared to the cost of a flight of F-16 ($15M each).

My conclusion has been that the Israelis believe that the Arab Palestinian would not appreciate an such move; and in fact would object.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...I disagree with this, it's just excusing Israel's actions towards Palestinian minors. Israel is not some third world country. They are a nation constantly extolled as being a beacon of democracy and human rights in a region where both are scarce. Their treatment of minors in the military justice system is long standing, and a bit of a seamy underbelly, especially when compared to the treatment of Jewish juveniles for the same crimes.

When you say: OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

According reports and accounts, they do do real harm and they go against all accepted standards of law concerning the treatment of children. Sexual abuse and threats of sexual abuse? Physical abuse? One of the things pointed out is many cases that should normally be sent to a civil system (either Israeli or Palestinian) end up going through the military system where children are most likely to suffer abuse.

 

[Phoenall]

Palestinians Find Little Justice In Israeli Military Courts - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Most Palestinian detainees brought to Ofer spend only a few minutes in front of a judge — an Israeli army officer, either on active or reserve duty. Wearing brown Israeli prison uniforms and shackled at their hands and feet, the prisoners' hearings are held entirely in Hebrew, with translations to and from Arabic by Israeli soldiers.

“The translation in these courts is not professional. There’s a problem with evidential procedures and the fact that they rely on secret materials. These are not fair trials,” Francis told Al-Monitor.

“Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, when Israel immediately founded the military orders, which also established the military courts, they started to define all political activities in the occupied territories as illegal, including political parties, demonstrations, even publishing certain books.”

<snip>...Almost 100% conviction rate

In 2011, Haaretz reported that almost all cases heard by Israeli military courts — 99.74% — resulted in convictions. The military appeals courts also overwhelming sided with Israeli army prosecutors, with 67% of appeals filed by the state accepted, versus only 33% filed by the defense.

Israeli human rights group B'Tselem also reported that of the 835 Palestinian minors that were arrested and tried in military courts between 2005 and 2010 on charges of throwing stones, only one was acquitted.

This reality highlights the widespread challenges attorneys face when trying to defend Palestinians charged within this system.

For many, especially attorneys who hold West Bank-only IDs, the first step of physically accessing Israeli prisons and military courts to speak with their clients is difficult. Military orders are also not made readily available to the lawyers, and transcripts of detainee interrogations are often incomplete and also difficult to access.

“There’s no legal handbook you can buy in a military bookstore. There’s almost no access to the laws or jurisprudence of the military courts,” said Israeli attorney Gaby Lasky, who regularly represents Palestinian detainees, in a report titled, “Defending Palestinian Prisoners.”

Secret evidence is also often used, which makes building a defense nearly impossible. This is especially true in cases of Palestinians held under Israeli administrative-detention orders, which allow Israel to hold Palestinians without charge or trial for indefinite periods and without disclosing any evidence to the defense on “security” grounds.

Unequal application of the law

Although they technically live within the same geographical area, Palestinians and Israeli settlers living in the West Bank are subject to two separate legal systems: Palestinians are subject to the military courts, and settlers are governed by Israeli civil law.

Even after dozens of Israeli settlers vandalized vehicles on an Israeli military base and assaulted a top Israeli army commander in 2011, the Israeli military opposed a government suggestion that settlers also be tried in the military courts.

Prosecuting Israeli settlers in military courts would, IDF sources argued, “create further political rifts within the army, which they characterized as a strategic problem for Israel's military.”

“If a settler violates the law, or if a settler attacks a Palestinian or kills a Palestinian, they would be subject to the civil system inside Israel and receive all the protections [therein],” explained Addameer’s Sahar Francis.

“The Israelis were using this system and the policy of imprisonment to target hundreds of thousands of Palestinians all these years. This is what makes the cases of the prisoners very important. It needs lots of effort in order to protect [Palestinians] against such violations and grave breaches for the Fourth Geneva Convention.”

As it states in the Geneva conventions

From UNICEF's report:

All children in contact with judicial systems should be treated with dignity and
respect at all times. For several years, national lawyers, human rights organizations,
United Nations experts and treaty bodies have been publishing reports of ill treatment
of children who come in contact with the Israeli military detention system.
Following an increasing number of allegations of ill-treatment of children in military
detention, UNICEF has conducted a review of practices related to children who
come into contact with the military detention system, from apprehension, to court
proceedings and outcome.

The review further considers whether the military detention system is in conformity
with the Convention on the Rights of the Child as well as the Convention against
Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Following
an overview of policies and norms related to the prohibition of ill-treatment in
international law, the paper presents the structure and operation of the Israeli
military detention system, including the legal framework, establishment of a juvenile
military court, age of criminal responsibility and penalties under military law. The
paper also reviews the legal safeguards in place against ill-treatment under military
law and discusses their conformity with the norms, guarantees and safeguards found
in international law. Subsequently, the treatment of children in the military detention
system is presented, following the passage of children through the system.
This paper is a result of this review and analysis of practices. It concludes that the
ill-treatment of children who come in contact with the military detention system
appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized throughout the process,
from the moment of arrest until the child’s prosecution and eventual conviction and
sentencing.

It is understood that in no other country are children systematically tried by juvenile
military courts that, by definition, fall short of providing the necessary guarantees
to ensure respect for their rights. All children prosecuted for offences they allegedly
committed should be treated in accordance with international juvenile justice
standards, which provide them with special protection. Most of these protections are
enshrined in the Convention on the Rights of the Child.​

Not a legally binding article just recommendations and wishes, the Geneva conventions are law along with the IHL and they set out the ground rules. Now when the Palestinians learn to treat Israeli children in the manner they want their children treat then there might be a change in the attitudes