Trends in Political Values and Core Attitudes

[midcan5]

Seperation of Church and State. Show me where it says that in the Constitution. You guys are always so big on GOD not being in there. SO be consistent.

I would recommend anyone interested in religion in our founding check out:

The Godless Constitution: A Moral Defense of the Secular State by Isaac Kramnick, R. Laurence Moore

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Godless-Constitution-Moral-Defense-secular/dp/0393328376/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205111362&sr=1-1[/ame]


"Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important.

In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist, God is mentioned only twice (both times by Madison, who uses the word, as Gore Vidal has remarked, in the "only Heaven knows" sense). In the Declaration of Independence, He gets two brief nods: a reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the famous line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." More blatant official references to a deity date from long after the founding period: "In God We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954 [see Elisabeth Sifton, "The Battle Over the Pledge," April 5, 2004]."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen

 

[Bern80]

Those who want LESS govt (usually hardcore conservatives) have proven over and over again they cannot be trusted and when left to their own devices will abuse the environment, workers and will do anything to make a buck. While NOT all are like this, quite a few are. If they want less govt, maybe they should start acting more responsibly and therefore do away with the need for more govt. I mean, aren't there enough laws on the books already.

At least you have pointed out a fundamental difference between the two sides. There also no basis what so ever. You say when government shrinks it reveals the corrupt. Well for that to be true government would have had to shrink at some point in history. When exactley has that ever happened?

It is a matter of degrees. One side, which you seem to be on seem to believe that corruption is the rule rather than the exception.

We can weed out the extremes. Of course not all wealthy people had to work for their money. Of course not all poor are people that made poor decisions. The question is what constitues the majority? Did the majority of the rich have their wealth handed to them as one side seems to believe. Are the majority of the poor victims of circumstance? The answer to both of those questions is no.

People like Midcan here need get honest. He says he knows all these poor people and they're all just victims. It just baffles that one side of this debate essentially wants to convince people that they don't have control of their lives. Rather depressing if you ask me.

 

[Foxfyre]

Anybody who has ever read the Federalist Papers or the Anti-Federalist papers knows there was no such thing as a 'godless constitution'. A secular state yes in which government would not be allowed to mess with religion, nor would any religion control the government.

To underscore that conviction, they did not include the word 'god' in the preamble or constitution, but it was implied in the 'blessings of liberty' clause in the preamble that derived from their near universal conviction that unalienable rights come from God, not government.

And those same guys who saw to that were all members of their various states and every state constitution in the union to this day refers to or acknowledges God or a Creator:

From the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness--

The Preamble to the US Constitution
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution ...

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land ...

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ..

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence= for the Supreme Ruler of Universe ..

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences ..

Florida 1845, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance, establish this Constitution ..

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings .

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors..

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings ... establish this Constitution

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges ... establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy ..

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine .. acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction ...

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God or our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe... in the course of His Providence, an opportunity .and devoutly imploring His direction ...

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom . establish this Constitution

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness .establish this Constitution ...

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ...

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .. establish this Constitution.

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, establish this Constitution ..New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience..

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors ...

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty ..

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings ...

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those .

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common .

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty . establish this

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences ...

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly= invoking His guidance

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution ...

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties ... establish this

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God ...

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution ..

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man .

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator ... can be directed only by Reason . and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other...

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ..

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility ..

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties ... establish this Constitution

 

[midcan5]

Anybody who has ever read the Federalist Papers or the Anti-Federalist papers knows there was no such thing as a 'godless constitution'. A secular state yes in which government would not be allowed to mess with religion, nor would any religion control the government.

I think you are wrong as part of the thinking during our founding was to get away from tests for religion, to do that you have to remove religion as a basis for the principles that guide us. And from what I have read the FP steer away from religion.

http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/


http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion--as it has itself no character of enmity against the law, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims], ... ("Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between The United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary," 1796-1797. Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America.

... shake off all the fears of servile prejudices under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. "

 

[Foxfyre]

No I am not wrong. Having no religious test fits very well with the spirit and intent of the Constitution and the First Amendment. But even the most cursory reading of those documents expressing the sentiment in the long debates and discussions that went into the forging of our Constitution are quite clear. Our founders were mostly deeply religious men who wrote a Constitution based on values arising out of their collective religious heritage. And they further were of the conviction that moral values come from that religious heritage and that the Constitution would not endure unless it governed a moral people.

They always expected that those in government would be religious and that there would be religious expression in government. At the same time they took great pains and care to ensure that nobody would ever again be placed under the tyranny of religious rule at least from the federal level; nor would government have any means to dictate or impose any consequences on the people based on what they might or might not believe respective of religion.

All it all it was quite brilliantly done.

 

[midcan5]

Foxfyre, nothing supports that position except your wanting it to. If you read about that time or its documents you find debate from some who wanted religion to be a key part but the central idea of individual freedom would not fit well with religious restraints. You can disagree and revising history is an annoying part of contemporary conservatives.

http://dim.com/~randl/founders.htm

 

[Shogun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11_controversy

The Treaty of Tripoli usually refers to the first treaty concluded between the United States of America and Tripoli, otherwise known in English as the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary. The treaty was signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796 and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797, finally receiving ratification from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797.

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxfyre, nothing supports that position except your wanting it to. If you read about that time or its documents you find debate from some who wanted religion to be a key part but the central idea of individual freedom would not fit well with religious restraints. You can disagree and revising history is an annoying part of contemporary conservatives.

http://dim.com/~randl/founders.htm

I have read quite extensively about that time, the documents, and the debates that went into them. I am not revising history in the least. Those who seem to want to remove the religious heritage aspect from the whole equation, however, are definitiely revising history. Anti-religionists don't want to believe that our founders were religious men guided by moral principles that were mostly a product of their religious faith.

"Secular" as pertaining to government means that government shall not be subject to any religious authority or dictate. It was not intended to mean non-religious. The First Amendment was intended as a safeguard protecting the government from an authoritarian religious body and also to ensure that the government would also not be able to interfere with religion.

Even in Jefferson's famous "wall of separation", he was reassuring a Baptist group that they had nothing to fear from their government. There is no presumption that he was defending the government from the Baptists in that letter. Jefferson himself attended church services held in the halls of Congress on the theory that as long as such services were purely voluntary, they in no way violated the Constitution. He would have been horrified at a policy forbidding voluntary prayer in the public schools. And he was probably considerably less religious than many of the other founders.

 

[Shogun]

Can you not read the above article 11 from the The Treaty of Tripoli?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Which totally IGNORES my statement. IF in fact, the founding fathers didnt want religion in the US FEDERAL CONSTITUTION, it is because they wanted the govt's role in advocating which religion it supports left up to the states. Proof is that they went back and ESTABLISHED State religions. How much more proof can you have??????

God is never used in the Lord's prayer. Is that proof he didnt address that prayer to God? Its a moronic concept.

Public education is not mentioned in the Constitution, yet there are laws requiring kids to go to school.

I would recommend anyone interested in religion in our founding check out:

The Godless Constitution: A Moral Defense of the Secular State by Isaac Kramnick, R. Laurence Moore

http://www.amazon.com/Godless-Const...8&s=books&qid=1205111362&sr=1-1&tag=ff0d01-20


"Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important.

In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist, God is mentioned only twice (both times by Madison, who uses the word, as Gore Vidal has remarked, in the "only Heaven knows" sense). In the Declaration of Independence, He gets two brief nods: a reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the famous line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." More blatant official references to a deity date from long after the founding period: "In God We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954 [see Elisabeth Sifton, "The Battle Over the Pledge," April 5, 2004]."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen

 

[LuvRPgrl]

At least you have pointed out a fundamental difference between the two sides. There also no basis what so ever. You say when government shrinks it reveals the corrupt. Well for that to be true government would have had to shrink at some point in history. When exactley has that ever happened?

It is a matter of degrees. One side, which you seem to be on seem to believe that corruption is the rule rather than the exception.

We can weed out the extremes. Of course not all wealthy people had to work for their money. Of course not all poor are people that made poor decisions. The question is what constitues the majority? Did the majority of the rich have their wealth handed to them as one side seems to believe. Are the majority of the poor victims of circumstance? The answer to both of those questions is no.

People like Midcan here need get honest. He says he knows all these poor people and they're all just victims. It just baffles that one side of this debate essentially wants to convince people that they don't have control of their lives. Rather depressing if you ask me.

There have been more congressional investigations into corrupt politicians with Democrats than Republicans in the recent past. So much for Dr. gumpy's insinuation that Republicans are more corrupt.

You are right, people like midcan simply are not honest. They want things a certain way and they "FEEL" like lying is acceptable as the "ends justify the means", they also have a need, and do, feel morally superior to conservatives.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Foxfyre, nothing supports that position except your wanting it to. If you read about that time or its documents you find debate from some who wanted religion to be a key part but the central idea of individual freedom would not fit well with religious restraints. You can disagree and revising history is an annoying part of contemporary conservatives.

http://dim.com/~randl/founders.htm

There is plenty to support his posistion.

Your support, the treaty of Tripoli and the Federalist papers are weak at best. The treaty was written long after the founding fathers founded our nation. Federalist papers are merely opinions of some.

The Constitution would not exist if it were not for the LEGAL and BINDING document known as the Declaration of Independence, where it most certainly confirms that the rights of the people, as will be outlined in the Constitution, ARE DERIVED FROM GOD. The DOI is every bit as important and legally binding in the founding and framework of our govt as is the COTUS.

Writings by Washington, who was by far and away the most popular of all the founding fathers, (and whom those who want to rewrite history, convienently ignore) and others clearly demonstrate their belief and intention that the govt has to be influenced by religion, or doomed to failure.

You can point out all day long portions of our govt that ignored religion, but when we can show where it is emphatically stated, OR ACTED UPON, that religion is a part of the govt and that govt can establish religion(s), then all those portions where God is not mentioned, become MOOT.

Fact is, the FF's went back to their respective state to ESTABLISH STATE RELIGIONS. The first amendment in the FEDERAL COTUS was put in, not to make a complete seperation of church and state at all levels of govt, but rather to establish that the STATES retain the right, and not THE FEDS, to establish whichever religion they wish to. AND THEY FREAKING DID JUST THAT. They established STATE religions, which were Christian denominations.

As for individual freedoms not fitting well with religous restraints, I dont have a clue how you come up with that. Fact is, our freedoms were declared as a result of RELIGION. The FF's emphatically stated that the GOD GIVEN rights of humans, shall not be taken away by govt. They did not fear rights being taken by religion, but rather by secular, or corrupt govt's and that those individual rights were created by God, and hence should not be taken away by any powers that men have.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Well as long as we're speaking in generalities, seems you are advocating the nanny government. That's not freedom, that's tyranny.

And tyranny was precisely what the Founding fathers were fighting.

They stated that the powers of govt are for protecting the citizens from foreign govt's, from criminals, and to establish commerce that would be free from thievery, cheats, swindlers and those who wish to impose on others because of their financial ability to do so. They claimed the govt needed that power over commerce to instill a system that would work well and benefit all.

The original document governing the nation was lacking in the amount of power it gave the feds regarding commerce, and the leaders saw it wasnt working very well, and hence wrote a new Constitution, giving the feds more power, but many refused to sign, unless the Bill of Rights were added to assure the FEDS will not impose and unduly strip the STATES of power.

Basically, the govt is to protect the citizens and the country. It is also to handle anything that is a necessity to exist, but private persons or establishments cannot handle adequately themselves.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11_controversy

The Treaty of Tripoli usually refers to the first treaty concluded between the United States of America and Tripoli, otherwise known in English as the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary. The treaty was signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796 and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797, finally receiving ratification from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797.

They treaty, which was recognized as being dishonest anyways, was referring to the FEDERAL govt only. States did not have the power or authority to sign treaties with foreign govt's. But the STATES did have the power to establish a religion, legally. So, how one can state that the country has a complete seperation of Church and state at all levels is beyond me.

The FF's viewed themselves as citizens of the individual colonies (states) and not as Americans, originally. They viewed the Federal govt as a necessary evil, and that the States should retain the authority to dispense laws. Thus, they wanted to limit the scope of Federal powers, and hence the Bill of RIghts. In fact, they were so intent on limiting the Federal power, that the original governing doctrine was not working because the Feds did not have enough power to make the country run smoothly. In commerce, people could swindle another person, and then run back to the protection of their own State. It did not make for a very well functioning commerce.

 

[midcan5]

There have been more congressional investigations into corrupt politicians with Democrats than Republicans in the recent past. So much for Dr. gumpy's insinuation that Republicans are more corrupt.

You are right, people like midcan simply are not honest. They want things a certain way and they "FEEL" like lying is acceptable as the "ends justify the means", they also have a need, and do, feel morally superior to conservatives.

First paragraph: BS - "In 1993-94, under a unified Democratic government, the House Government Reform Committee held 135 oversight or investigate hearings. In 2004-05 under the unified Republican government, Congress held just 37." from 'The Big Con,' by Jonathan Chait.

Second paragraph: Please counter with debate and counter arguments and learn that ad hominem is the weakest come back. Something first graders do, you're not a first grader are you?

 

[midcan5]

People like Midcan here need get honest. He says he knows all these poor people and they're all just victims. It just baffles that one side of this debate essentially wants to convince people that they don't have control of their lives. Rather depressing if you ask me.

Please show me where I said that? I said I knew both rich and poor and they differ little in their work habits and core personalities. Take a public example, Bush Jr failed at everything he did, why isn't he poor you think? There is a structure or social infrastructure in which the upper class maintain themselves and one too for the lower class. I wouldn't classify it as 'victim' unless you get into very simplistic thinking. But I would argue there is no level playing field and without one we cannot arrive at an end game conclusion.

 

[Shogun]

They treaty, which was recognized as being dishonest anyways, was referring to the FEDERAL govt only. States did not have the power or authority to sign treaties with foreign govt's. But the STATES did have the power to establish a religion, legally. So, how one can state that the country has a complete seperation of Church and state at all levels is beyond me.

The FF's viewed themselves as citizens of the individual colonies (states) and not as Americans, originally. They viewed the Federal govt as a necessary evil, and that the States should retain the authority to dispense laws. Thus, they wanted to limit the scope of Federal powers, and hence the Bill of RIghts. In fact, they were so intent on limiting the Federal power, that the original governing doctrine was not working because the Feds did not have enough power to make the country run smoothly. In commerce, people could swindle another person, and then run back to the protection of their own State. It did not make for a very well functioning commerce.

Im sure many things are beyond you, dude. You can bitch and moan about it all you want but the FACT of that treaty, the first mendment and the historical reason the FF's wanted to seperate dogma junkies from invoking their religion is as clear as the day is long.

 

[Foxfyre]

Im sure many things are beyond you, dude. You can bitch and moan about it all you want but the FACT of that treaty, the first mendment and the historical reason the FF's wanted to seperate dogma junkies from invoking their religion is as clear as the day is long.

Wrong. The FFs WANTED religion evoked frequently and everywhere. What they DIDN'T want is for you to be able to dictate to anybody where and when religion could or could not be evoked. And they DIDN'T want any religious group to be able to have the power to tell you what religion must be evoked.

If you can't see that not allowing religion to have power to dictate politics or international treaties is not the same thing as government prohibiting religious expression, you really need to go back to basics and start over.

 

[Shogun]

ill actually take you serious when you learn how to post evidence istead of merely your opinion. There is a reason you avoided commenting on the above treaty.


it's fucking hilarious that you seem to think that fans of the French age of enlightenment would have wanted dogma evoked onto the population.. you know.. despite every deist fact available from Ben Franklin to Thomas Jefferson, from the above treaty down to the first fucking amendment..


The pledge of alliegence wasn't even amended to ADD GOD until laughably later in our history.


go tell it to your ghost in the sky, yo. He's probably listening right now and agreeing with me.

 

[Foxfyre]

The only 'evidence' you have posted is a treaty that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. Those who live in glass houses. . .

I previously posted all the references to a creator/God in the constitutions of all 50 states. It is important to realize that despite that...and the theocracies established in various colonies...no federal theocracy ever developed and the state theocracies were soon abolished. Yet no state has since presumed to disavow its acknowledgment of God.

But here you go....some more evidence:

It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.

Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state." In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion. In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

And all recorded in the Library of Congress:

The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
•• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God……
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.

William Bradford
•• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
•• 1) "a better, and easier place of living””; and that ““the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]““
•• 2) ““The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"

The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
““Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together……””
______________________________________________________________________
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
““ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity…… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.””
•• ““[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.””
––John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!
Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
““ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all…… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.”” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

““ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity…… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.”” [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
•• ““Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" ““Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
““The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.””

John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
““ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.””

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
““ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”” ––Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

““In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered…… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?”” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
•• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.

““The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.””
On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, ““I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.””
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
•• ““In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, ……at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness…… Resolved; ……Thursday the 11th of May……to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation ……and a Blessing on the …… Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]……That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation……for the redress of America’’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
•• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.””

——The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
““It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
““The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.””

John Jay:
““ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public

Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.
““Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.”” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
““ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.””
““Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.””
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
““God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Samuel Johnston:
•• ““It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
““ We’’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.””
““We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity……to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

•• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.

Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
•• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
““ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia”” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress
““It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.””
•• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
““For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.””

[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; ““Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same …… body of principal men …… exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry –– Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
““ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.””
““ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.”” ““The Existence of God--1810””

Benjamin Rush:
•• ““I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them……we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.”” ““By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.”” [Letter written (1790’’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
•• ““Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.””
•• ““If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.””
"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education””
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
““ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.””
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
““ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.”” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
““ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.””
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
““ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.””
““In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.””
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]
Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]
““All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.”” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]
““The Bible was America’’s basic textbook
in all fields.”” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

““Education is useless without the Bible”” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:
Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

““ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.””
““What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words ““So help me God!”” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’’s adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], ““Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."
““ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.””
““ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.””

[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]
"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention
"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]
________________________________________________________________________
Public Institutions
Liberty Bell Inscription:
““ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof”” [Leviticus 25:10]
Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
•• ““Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea”” ––Ben Franklin

•• ““The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.”” --Thomas Jefferson
On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.
Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
" Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in the Red Sea

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
•• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
““For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.””
Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
•• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
New York Spectator. August 23, 1831
““ The court of common pleas of Chester county, [New York] rejected a witness who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge remarked that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no cause in a Christian country where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief.
New England Primer:
Used in public and private schools from 1690 to 1900 second only to the Bible
Some of its contents:
A song of praise to God
Prayers in Jesus’’ name
The famous Bible alphabet
Shorter Catechism of faith in Christ