To those saying flipping burgers or dunking fries deserves 15.00 per hour...

[Slyhunter]

I think there are very few people who would say they make enough for the work they do including myself. But as I've said repeatedly, your labor is only worth as much as your employer can pay another person to do the same quality of work as you do. That's why minimum wage jobs pay what they do. Those are jobs that are easily filled because the employers have no problem getting people to work for that money. That being the case, could you tell me why they should pay more?

Because it's the right thing to do, but I don't think you understand that concept, 14.50.

Sometimes you do the right thing, not because some deity is going to send you to hell if you don't, but because it's the right thing.

 

[Slyhunter]

I think there are very few people who would say they make enough for the work they do including myself. But as I've said repeatedly, your labor is only worth as much as your employer can pay another person to do the same quality of work as you do. That's why minimum wage jobs pay what they do. Those are jobs that are easily filled because the employers have no problem getting people to work for that money. That being the case, could you tell me why they should pay more?

Because it's the right thing to do, but I don't think you understand that concept, 14.50.

You don't understand.

You and I own widget factories. We are in competition with each other. I pay the lowest wage I can to get the work done and you pay "the right thing to do" wages. Because my labor costs are much lower than yours, I begin to take your customers away because I can sell my widgets cheaper than you can.

You are China and pay your employees just enough to sleep on the floor and fill their belly's. He pays his people enough where they can afford to pay rent and if matched up with one another actually afford kids and family's. You suck, he doesn't. That's why God invented Tariffs.

 

[ScienceRocks]

We need stronger unions in the private sector to force the goddamn rich to give a larger piece of the pie to the workers.

Minimum wage is too easy to pass the cost to the consumer.

 

[Slyhunter]

Have two minimum wages. One for under 18 and a living wage for over 18. Let these employers start paying a living wage or fill all their slots with kids. No more taking advantage of the poor!

 

[JoeB131]

You don't need to work in manufacturing to understand that most manufacturers do hire the cheapest labor; not in all cases, but most. Paying more for labor doesn't guarantee you the best labor. Our UAW is proof of that.

Except most of the quality problems for the big three had to do with design, not labor, but never mind.

Actually, the Japanese and Germans were paying more... and giving their workers good union benefits. So that argument fails.

 

[JoeB131]

You are China and pay your employees just enough to sleep on the floor and fill their belly's. He pays his people enough where they can afford to pay rent and if matched up with one another actually afford kids and family's. You suck, he doesn't. That's why God invented Tariffs.

And what we are finding a lot in the Manufacturing field is that product from China is of such poor quality that you don't go to them for anything but the simplest things.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You don't need to work in manufacturing to understand that most manufacturers do hire the cheapest labor; not in all cases, but most. Paying more for labor doesn't guarantee you the best labor. Our UAW is proof of that.

Except most of the quality problems for the big three had to do with design, not labor, but never mind.

Actually, the Japanese and Germans were paying more... and giving their workers good union benefits. So that argument fails.

No, they were not. The problem with our unions is they made the companies promise lifelong healthcare benefits which as we know, got out of control in price.

About ten years ago I ran into a childhood friend of mine. We began talking about the guys we hung out with. He told me of one of our friends who retired from the auto plant. The guy was 50. So he got his pension and healthcare benefits for the rest of his life because he started the job right out of high school.

When I used to deliver to the auto plants and they held me up all day, my employer would charge them for layover time. Most transportation outfits did. The union guys could care less. They would let you sit there all day because they were not paying the bill. Imagine the total cost of that in a years time.

 

[JoeB131]

No, they were not. The problem with our unions is they made the companies promise lifelong healthcare benefits which as we know, got out of control in price.

About ten years ago I ran into a childhood friend of mine. We began talking about the guys we hung out with. He told me of one of our friends who retired from the auto plant. The guy was 50. So he got his pension and healthcare benefits for the rest of his life because he started the job right out of high school.

And this was bad, why?

The thing was, instead of putting money aside for pensions and health care, the big three were putting it into big salaries for execs and big payout for stockholders...

When I used to deliver to the auto plants and they held me up all day, my employer would charge them for layover time. Most transportation outfits did. The union guys could care less. They would let you sit there all day because they were not paying the bill

Again, has it ever occured to you they made you sit all day because you were an asshole?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Why? Is it not the responsibility of the individual to take care of themselves and their family? The employer is only responsible for the well being of the employee via insurance, aka workers comp if the employee gets hurt while performing his job; and a wage they both agreed to.

We don't live on Islands.
An employee does a better job if his family is provided for. What is the point of having a job that doesn't provide a living wage, you might as well be a criminal or homeless. Why bother getting dressed and going to work if you aren't making a living wage? You should die or become a criminal instead.

It sure beats learning to do something so you can make a living wage.

How can you spend money to learn something to do so you can make a living wage while not making a living wage?

Learning doesn't have to cost anything.

Ever hear of a library?

And all these people who don't make a living wage sure seem to have cell phones and cable TV don't they? Maybe they can use the money wasted on those to improve their worth to the marketplace.

Even if they don't every place of employment has some room to move up.

You did not read what I wrote.
Making luxury items cheap and affordable does not make it cheaper to live. Just because I can afford $200 once every 1 - 10 years for a big screen TV does not mean I can afford my $1000 a month rent. The two DO NOT equate.
Bad food cheap, good food expensive so were all fat. Luxuries cheap, necessities expensive, do you see the FUCKING problem now?

200 dollars for a big screen TV?

How about the 100 a month for cable and internet? How about the couple hundred a month for cell phones for everyone in the family? How about the few hundred a month to eat out?

And that only bad food is cheap line is pure bullshit and is getting old.

I've posted many times how a family of 4 can eat very well on 400 a month

 

[Humorme]

This has been gone over many, many times. To get people at $15 an hour means that the average cost of a MickeyDs meal goes up, at the most, a quarter.

That's because McDonald's sells over 1,000 hamburgers a day, 800 fries, 1,200 soft drinks and so on. You can divide that loss without anybody really noticing.

However Butch's Hardware store does not sell 1,000 hammers a day. Fred's care wash does not wash 1,500 cars a day. Bob's lawnmower shop does not repair or sell 1,000 lawnmowers a day.

No kidding.

 

[Humorme]

Businesses should be financially responsible for their employees families.

Businesses don't open up to provide for families, businesses open up to produce products or services for a profit. That's it. Nobody opens up a business as a social obligation. If I decide to open up my own lawn care business, I do so because I no longer want to work for somebody else. I took my hard earned money so I can advance myself in life like everybody should. I'm taking a huge gamble that one day I might make enough to live well and possibly grow my lawn care business. I didn't open up my business to provide for others. I have work that needs to be done, and this is what I'm willing to pay to get that work done.

I agree with what you're saying here; however, the people on the right will still reject their own beliefs given the right set of circumstances. For example:

Given what you said, an employer ought to be able to hire undocumented foreigners. They should also be able to hire an all white workforce, an all black one, or one that does not accept gays. It's like you said, it's their business. Why do they owe anyone in the private sector a job? If the employer should be able to decide how much to pay, why not allow the employer to decide who they will and will not offer the job to?

Because we have laws against discrimination. And companies do hire all black workers. In fact a few of our customers replaced all their white workers with blacks because blacks will work for less money. They don't discriminate against whites, it's just that white workers will not accept their low pay offers.

That same government could put laws in place mandating $15 per hour minimums. Are you really this dense or are you playing a game?

 

[Humorme]

Sure does, until that $5 burger you just flipped starts selling for $10-$12, then you'll be back to pissing and moaning.

This has been gone over many, many times. To get people at $15 an hour means that the average cost of a MickeyDs meal goes up, at the most, a quarter.

Only in the most simplistic and imaginary scenarios.
If burger baggers got 15 an hour then everyone who makes less than 15 an hour would also get a raise to 15 an hour.

So basically the prices for everything a fast food place needs to run from the paper bags, napkins, straws, cleaning supplies, bread, meat, pickles, onions etc will rise as all those distributors raise the pay of everyone making less than 15 an hour. On top of that the employer's share of payroll taxes will rise, their workman's comp tax will rise, their state and federal unemployment taxes will rise, their business liability insurance will rise.

You obviously don't realize that running a business involves far more than just employee salary

Not to mention the folks making $20/hour would need to be raised to $30/hour, etc, etc.

Why?

Why?? WTF!? Let's say the guy next to you is currently making $18/hour and you're making $8/hour. You get a raise, basically doubling your hourly rate...do you really think the guy making the $18/hour will just sit there and not expect a similar raise. How fricken old are you?

Obviously older than you. WTF are you talking about?

 

[Humorme]

Sure does, until that $5 burger you just flipped starts selling for $10-$12, then you'll be back to pissing and moaning.

This has been gone over many, many times. To get people at $15 an hour means that the average cost of a MickeyDs meal goes up, at the most, a quarter.

Only in the most simplistic and imaginary scenarios.
If burger baggers got 15 an hour then everyone who makes less than 15 an hour would also get a raise to 15 an hour.

So basically the prices for everything a fast food place needs to run from the paper bags, napkins, straws, cleaning supplies, bread, meat, pickles, onions etc will rise as all those distributors raise the pay of everyone making less than 15 an hour. On top of that the employer's share of payroll taxes will rise, their workman's comp tax will rise, their state and federal unemployment taxes will rise, their business liability insurance will rise.

You obviously don't realize that running a business involves far more than just employee salary

Not to mention the folks making $20/hour would need to be raised to $30/hour, etc, etc.

Why?

Because by the wage of everyone making less than 15 an hour to 15 an hour will result in everything costing more and the purchasing power of everyone making more than 15 an hour will be lessened.

So, you're saying those who make more than they're worth have some kind of right to live better than the guy who does similar work for half the wages? Do you support those laws which outlaw racial and sexual discrimination?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Businesses should be financially responsible for their employees families.

Businesses don't open up to provide for families, businesses open up to produce products or services for a profit. That's it. Nobody opens up a business as a social obligation. If I decide to open up my own lawn care business, I do so because I no longer want to work for somebody else. I took my hard earned money so I can advance myself in life like everybody should. I'm taking a huge gamble that one day I might make enough to live well and possibly grow my lawn care business. I didn't open up my business to provide for others. I have work that needs to be done, and this is what I'm willing to pay to get that work done.

I agree with what you're saying here; however, the people on the right will still reject their own beliefs given the right set of circumstances. For example:

Given what you said, an employer ought to be able to hire undocumented foreigners. They should also be able to hire an all white workforce, an all black one, or one that does not accept gays. It's like you said, it's their business. Why do they owe anyone in the private sector a job? If the employer should be able to decide how much to pay, why not allow the employer to decide who they will and will not offer the job to?

Because we have laws against discrimination. And companies do hire all black workers. In fact a few of our customers replaced all their white workers with blacks because blacks will work for less money. They don't discriminate against whites, it's just that white workers will not accept their low pay offers.

That same government could put laws in place mandating $15 per hour minimums. Are you really this dense or are you playing a game?

What's dense about telling the truth? We DO have customers that replaced their all white crew with blacks because they lowered their pay scale. It's perfectly legal too!

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

And this was bad, why?

Why? Because somebody has to pay for those benefits, and that somebody is the consumer. Then the consumer has to consider foreign cars that are competitively priced, but better built with a much better warranty like Toyota gives you.

It's just like that widget scenario I posted earlier. And as my former mechanic told me, Toyota and other Japanese car makers put their money in quality parts and engineering while American companies put their money into union wages and benefits. So when you buy a car, your money can go to early employee retirements. When I buy a car, my money is going into the car I'm buying.

The thing was, instead of putting money aside for pensions and health care, the big three were putting it into big salaries for execs and big payout for stockholders...

Their execs don't come close to what their manual labor costs were. Companies sell stock because it's free money. They can do with that money as they wish like expand operations or invest in better equipment. If selling stock was a disadvantage or expense to a company, they wouldn't sell stock.

Again, has it ever occured to you they made you sit all day because you were an asshole?

Even if that was the case, that would mean every truck driver was an asshole, and the worthless union guys were costing their company hundreds of thousands of dollars because they thought truck drivers were assholes. Then you wonder why unions died in this country???

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

We need stronger unions in the private sector to force the goddamn rich to give a larger piece of the pie to the workers.

Minimum wage is too easy to pass the cost to the consumer.

All costs to a company are passed on to the consumer. This is something you lefties will never understand. You applaud when you hear of Democrats increasing taxes on companies, but what you don't understand is that you will ultimately be paying those taxes.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I think there are very few people who would say they make enough for the work they do including myself. But as I've said repeatedly, your labor is only worth as much as your employer can pay another person to do the same quality of work as you do. That's why minimum wage jobs pay what they do. Those are jobs that are easily filled because the employers have no problem getting people to work for that money. That being the case, could you tell me why they should pay more?

Because it's the right thing to do, but I don't think you understand that concept, 14.50.

You don't understand.

You and I own widget factories. We are in competition with each other. I pay the lowest wage I can to get the work done and you pay "the right thing to do" wages. Because my labor costs are much lower than yours, I begin to take your customers away because I can sell my widgets cheaper than you can.

You are China and pay your employees just enough to sleep on the floor and fill their belly's. He pays his people enough where they can afford to pay rent and if matched up with one another actually afford kids and family's. You suck, he doesn't. That's why God invented Tariffs.

I may suck, but I'm going to put him out of business. And when he no longer has a business and his well paid employees no longer have a job, then who sucks?

You don't understand what tariffs are about. It has recently been tried before, read what happened afterwards:

Here's what happened the last time the US was reckless enough to try a steel tariff

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Why? Is it not the responsibility of the individual to take care of themselves and their family? The employer is only responsible for the well being of the employee via insurance, aka workers comp if the employee gets hurt while performing his job; and a wage they both agreed to.

We don't live on Islands.
An employee does a better job if his family is provided for. What is the point of having a job that doesn't provide a living wage, you might as well be a criminal or homeless. Why bother getting dressed and going to work if you aren't making a living wage? You should die or become a criminal instead.

It sure beats learning to do something so you can make a living wage.

How can you spend money to learn something to do so you can make a living wage while not making a living wage?

There are government loans for things like that, courses you can take on the internet (at least partially) and night school. Heck, I did it for a short time when I was younger. I worked full-time plus and went to school three nights a week. It wasn't easy though.

Some college and trade schools even finance their students through their own institutions.

I owe $47,000 in student loans and all it got me was an AA degree. I got kicked out of college once because my English teacher thought I was a "heartless asshole" after reading one of my papers about people needing to learn to be responsible for the consequences of their own actions. Because I wasn't Liberal enough I got booted out of college. I Flunked Algebra with a perfect 4.0 average because I worked 110 hours a week and had problems showing up to class on days other than class days. Your liberal school system SUCKS!

It's not my liberal school system.

 

[beagle9]

Why is it the duty of an employer to furnish you with a living wage if you decide to have no children or 12? Is it not your own responsibility to live with in your means?

why should people's value only be based on their ability of the One Percent to make money off of them? Why not have a living wage for everyone, and just be done with it? You want to do business, provide a living wage.

Period. Done.

Or conversely, provide everyone with a basic income, and then if they want more, then WalMart or whoever can provide it.

You see, the real problem is the old model of "you work for a living' is really based on the system being able to produce job. That's simply not the case anymore. Time to do something different.

. Provide everyone with a basic income eh ? And just who is everyone ???. Without the struggle in learning, hoping, teaching, working, then how does one regulate the decision making process in life ?? If you are giving anything for free, it breeds the thinking that one doesn't have to be responsible in ones critical choices in life.

Example: If you don't have gas enough to go to town two times that week, then you make sure you make a list and check it twice, and if you are going to consider children, then you figure on how many by what you can afford, and not what the state can help you afford. Welfare and food stamps has been that basic income for years, and it is set to the level that keeps a person having a hunger to not remain at the welfare level forever.

The problem is that welfare encourages people to not try.

Basic income was introduced in Switzerland some time ago. It failed by vote, but I was fascinated by the concept.

What they thought of was getting rid of every single social program they had and replace it with Basic Income. Running the numbers, it would have saved the country money in the long run.

In comparison, it would be like giving every adult in the US $18,000 a year. You can do what you like with that money. If you can live on that alone, good for you. If you want to use it to supplement your income, better yet.

In any case, it could solve a lot of problems we have with our social programs. For instance, there would be no more grudges between the rich and the poor. Working people would get the same thing that non-working people get. Or for instance you may have heard me complain about HUD people living in my suburb. Basic Income would take care of that because they wouldn't' be able to live here because the rent and home purchases would be too expensive.

No more complaining about food stamps, Medicaid, Obama phones, nothing. Basic Income would wipe all that out.

Because not many people can live on 18K a year, it would encourage them to work. They wouldn't have to worry about how much they made either, because your BI check would not change even if you hit the lottery.

If you work and healthcare insurance is your problem, you can use a large portion of your check to provide insurance. If you have a problem affording advanced education for your children, you could use your check for that as well. Nearly everybody could afford college because remember, your children are now over 18 and they too would get a BI check. Together, that would be 36K a year for educational investment.

Imagine the money you would have if you paid off your mortgage. BI can achieve that for you. More people would be invested in the stock market or make some other financial investments.

So I think Basic Income is very intriguing. I know it would do me a world of good and save the government money at the same time.

. So the government who would supply this living wage, would basically become the very thing in which you hate Ray (A Union) ??? Wouldn't people sit on their aces instead of struggle to do better in life or would they even bother to build endurance or stamina in order to get out of future situations, make choices, build wealth, condition themselves in order to do better if they we're somehow caught up in a dead end job, and all because they knew they had too in some way ?? Hey in some cases (if investigated properly), the government should step in and help people against a bad situation. No I'm not for the government becoming the nations worker's union. No !!!! So you are ok if the government pays this living wage as long as your company doesn't have to eh ?? Well where does the government get this money Ray ? It gets it from my tax dollars. So you are for corporate welfare or subsidizing companies employee wages off of the backs of the working stiffs in this nation Ray ??

Now the government to give everyone 18 and over $18,000 dollars in a healthcare savings account would make more sense to me. The account starts out with $18,000 dollars, and it can only be used for healthcare. If $600.00 of it is used in the year, then the difference would be put back in to start the new year with the $18,000 in the account again. The roll over would be what wasn't spent the year before. Say if 20 years old and working, and your company was offering a health insurance policy, well if you joined that policy, then it wouldn't go against the government Healthcare savings account, because the government Healthcare account would remain, and would act as a supplemental insurance against that policy if needed.

 

[beagle9]

Businesses should be financially responsible for their employees families.

Businesses don't open up to provide for families, businesses open up to produce products or services for a profit. That's it. Nobody opens up a business as a social obligation. If I decide to open up my own lawn care business, I do so because I no longer want to work for somebody else. I took my hard earned money so I can advance myself in life like everybody should. I'm taking a huge gamble that one day I might make enough to live well and possibly grow my lawn care business. I didn't open up my business to provide for others. I have work that needs to be done, and this is what I'm willing to pay to get that work done.

I agree with what you're saying here; however, the people on the right will still reject their own beliefs given the right set of circumstances. For example:

Given what you said, an employer ought to be able to hire undocumented foreigners. They should also be able to hire an all white workforce, an all black one, or one that does not accept gays. It's like you said, it's their business. Why do they owe anyone in the private sector a job? If the employer should be able to decide how much to pay, why not allow the employer to decide who they will and will not offer the job to?

Because we have laws against discrimination. And companies do hire all black workers. In fact a few of our customers replaced all their white workers with blacks because blacks will work for less money. They don't discriminate against whites, it's just that white workers will not accept their low pay offers.

That same government could put laws in place mandating $15 per hour minimums. Are you really this dense or are you playing a game?

What's dense about telling the truth? We DO have customers that replaced their all white crew with blacks because they lowered their pay scale. It's perfectly legal too!

. Hmm, if found that any white was discriminated against in the situation you claim, then there is nothing legal about hiring an all black or all white staff in the workplace under penalty of violating civil rights laws pertaining to discrimination in the workforce. There is never a case where you have all whites or all blacks refusing a job based upon the amount the job might or might not pay. Sounds like a crooked employer to me.