Theocracy In America--Who wants this?

[Shogun]

In the Declaration of Independence, the Founders cited their Creator to justify their inalienable rights. A well know battle cry of the Revolutionaries, as they descended upon British soldiers, was "We have no King but Jesus". In the Constitution they wished to secure His Blessings. They did not abandon their Christian God.

lol


good grief.. what silly bullshit. thump on, christians.. thump on.

 

[KittenKoder]

lol


good grief.. what silly bullshit. thump on, christians.. thump on.

Actually, this is one time that Glocksucker made a good point so this is just a silly insult. The majority at that time were christian (of various cults) because most of the pagans and heathens were slaughtered already before they came over, there just weren't that many others present. So it makes sense and is logical. However he does conveniently omit the fact that these christian cults were actually seeking to worship in their own way without having to conform to any one church, they were also attempting to avoid having any one religious ideal control the country so they could continue to keep their own cults in the future.

 

[Southpaw]

I realize that it is politically correct to assume that the Founders wanted this huge wall between church and state but that view is simply not true.

If you told them that Christians should not display their Christianity while serving in the government, they would have laughed at you.

Take a look at some of the articles in the following links. Before you trash the link, just note that these articles refer to primary sources.

WallBuilders - Historical Writings - The Founders As Christians

WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

WallBuilders - Historical Writings - The Importance of Voting and Christian Involvement in the Political Arena

 

[sky dancer]

I realize that it is politically correct to assume that the Founders wanted this huge wall between church and state but that view is simply not true.

If you told them that Christians should not display their Christianity while serving in the government, they would have laughed at you.

Take a look at some of the articles in the following links. Before you trash the link, just note that these articles refer to primary sources.

WallBuilders - Historical Writings - The Founders As Christians

WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

WallBuilders - Historical Writings - The Importance of Voting and Christian Involvement in the Political Arena

I thought you said you are not in favor of a theocracy? Why are you arguing in support of one?

A central feature of a theocracy is that there should be no separation of church and state. If a government is enforcing laws based on religious grounds, then the state by its very nature must be using religious doctrine as a guiding principle.

A government which adheres to a policy of separation of church and state cannot be a theocracy.


"Dominion Theology teaches that all of humanity is under the sovereign dominion of God. This means that Christians, as the followers of the only True Religion and representatives of God, have a divine mandate to rule over the rest of humanity.

Dominion Theology teaches that Christians have a divine mandate to govern and bring everyone else to God, this doctrine is incompatible with basic religious liberties. When combined with Theonomy, it would lead to the criminalization of all religious positions other than its narrow conception of Christianity.

Christian Right leaders have adopted Dominionist premises and language on a wide array of issues: public schools, secularism, church & state, and even economics. The Christian Right uses the same explicit arguments for the invalidity of secular government, the inability of governments to be neutral on religious manners, the idea that America was originally founded as a Christian state, and that Christianity should today possess a favored status within the American government.

The fact that few people today explicitly endorse the creation of such a theocracy doesn’t mean that they won’t accept it as the logical conclusion of the many beliefs which they are being convinced to adopt right now. If Dominionism isn’t to lead to theocracy, something must be done.
http://atheism.about.com/od/christianismnationalism/p/Dominionism.htm

 

[KittenKoder]

I thought you said you are not in favor of a theocracy? Why are you arguing in support of one?

Actually, I don't think Southpaw is saying they support it. I agree with them, but at the same time I must add that all should be allowed the same right.

 

[glockmail]

Freedom of religion is what the Pilgrims sought, not to create a theocracy.

Same as the Founders. In fact they fought against a theocracy, arguing that God would not put such a fool on the British throne. But to claim that they were deists is simply not true. They were undoubtedly Christian and wrote a set of laws based on sound Christian principles. The result was a form of government that benefited the religious among us as well as those who choose not to believe.

 

[Southpaw]

I thought you said you are not in favor of a theocracy? Why are you arguing in support of one?

I don't support a theocracy. I just particularly dislike it when people try to revise history.

This nation was not necessarily founded as a Christian nation (semantics can be tricky here) but it was founded by Christians and for Christians (but also inclusive of people of other faiths).

I don't support using the Bible as the source of our laws because we would just screw it up.

I do support using the Constitution as it was written to be the source of our laws because I think it is the closest that mankind has come to with a decent government.

 

[AllieBaba]

The constitution is based upon biblical values.

 

[KittenKoder]

The constitution is based upon biblical values.

No, it was based on decency.

 

[sky dancer]

I don't support a theocracy. I just particularly dislike it when people try to revise history.

This nation was not necessarily founded as a Christian nation (semantics can be tricky here) but it was founded by Christians and for Christians (but also inclusive of people of other faiths).

I don't support using the Bible as the source of our laws because we would just screw it up.

I do support using the Constitution as it was written to be the source of our laws because I think it is the closest that mankind has come to with a decent government.

The constitution provides for freedom of religion--and does not declare the US a Christian nation.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof: or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

 

[sky dancer]

Deism is not Christianity nor is it biblical.

 

[sky dancer]

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause 8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?

In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.

Is America a Christian Nation?

 

[Southpaw]

The constitution provides for freedom of religion--and does not declare the US a Christian nation.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof: or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Agreed.

Deism is not Christianity nor is it biblical.

Agreed but I think many modern historians try to recast the FFs as primarily deists when they weren't. They were primarily Christians. Take a look at those links I provided. There is a wealth of primary sources in there to back up my claims.

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause 8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?

In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.

Is America a Christian Nation?

Interesting you should bring of the ToT.

WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - Treaty of Tripoli

 

[sky dancer]

If the Christian Right Extremists wish to return this country to its beginnings, so be it... because it was a climate of Freethought. The Founders were students of the European Enlightenment. Half a century after the establishment of the United States, clergymen complained that no president up to that date had been a Christian. In a sermon that was reported in newspapers, Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The attitude of the age was one of enlightened reason, tolerance, and free thought. The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Extremists had their way with this country.

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
-George Washington letter to Edward Newenham, 1792



Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians

 

[KittenKoder]

If the Christian Right Extremists wish to return this country to its beginnings, so be it... because it was a climate of Freethought. The Founders were students of the European Enlightenment. Half a century after the establishment of the United States, clergymen complained that no president up to that date had been a Christian. In a sermon that was reported in newspapers, Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The attitude of the age was one of enlightened reason, tolerance, and free thought. The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Extremists had their way with this country.

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians

While it is true that many of the wingnuts who want the 'original' form of our country would certainly not get what they are expecting, a majority of the forefathers were christian, they were just better christians than most and didn't want to oppress anyone.

 

[AllieBaba]

What exactly do you think the "Christian extremists" want to do with this country? And kindly define "Christian extremist". Because from what I've seen, most anti-Christian bigots consider anyone who declares themself a Christian is an "extremist".

So kindly tell me...what is it that the "Christian extremists" want to do to the country? It's a fucking urban secular legend.

 

[KittenKoder]

What exactly do you think the "Christian extremists" want to do with this country? And kindly define "Christian extremist". Because from what I've seen, most anti-Christian bigots consider anyone who declares themself a Christian is an "extremist".

So kindly tell me...what is it that the "Christian extremists" want to do to the country? It's a fucking urban secular legend.

Allie, you and Bass are christian extremists, while most others on here are not.

 

[sky dancer]

Kit--The founding fathers were Deists, not Christians. It's different.

 

[AllieBaba]

79 of our founding fathers who embraced Christian principles:

ABRAHAM BALDWIN (SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION): Chaplain in the American Revolution for two years.

ALBION PARRIS (GOVERNOR OF MAINE): Manager of the American Sunday School Union.

ALEXANDER HAMILTON (SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION): Proposed formation of the Christian Constitutional Society to spread Christian government to other nations.

ANDREW KIRKPATRICK (CHIEF-JUSTICE OF NEW JERSEY SUPREME COURT): Vice-President of the New jersey Bible Society; Vice-President of the American Bible Society.

BENJAMIN LINCOLN (REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; LT. GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS): Member of the Society for the Propagating of the Gospel among the Indians and Others.

BENJAMIN RUSH (SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION): Founder and manager of the Philadelphia Bible Society.

BUSHROD WASHINGTON (U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE): Vice-President of the American Bible Society; Vice-President of the American Sunday School Union.

CALEB STRONG (CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; U. S. SENATOR; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS): Vice-President of the American Bible Society.

CHARLES CARROLL, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION

CHARLES COTESWORTH PINCKNEY (SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION): President of the Charleston Bible Society; Vice-President of the American Bible Society.

CHARLES GOLDSBOROUGH (GOVERNOR OF MARYLAND; U. S. REPRESENTATIVE): Vice-President of the American Bible Society.

DANIEL BOONE, REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; LEGISLATOR

DANIEL TOMPKINS (GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK; VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE U. S.): Vice-President of the American Bible Society.

DANIEL WEBSTER

DAVID BREARLEY, SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION

DAVID LAWRENCE MORRIL (GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE; U. S. SENATOR): Vice-President of the American Bible Society; Manager in the American Sunday School Union.

DEWITT CLINTON (GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK; U. S. SENATOR; INTRODUCED THE TWELFTH AMENDMENT): Manager and Vice-President of the American Bible Society.

ELLAS BOUDINOT (PRESIDENT OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS): Founder and first President of the American Bible Society;President of the New Jersey Bible Society; of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions; member of the Massachusetts Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge.

FELIX GRUNDY (U. S. ATTORNEY GENERAL; U. S. SENATOR; U. S. CONGRESSMAN): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

FRANCIS DANA (MEMBER OF CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; CHIEF JUSTICE OF MASSACHUSETTS SUPREME COURT; U. S. MINISTER TO RUSSIA): Member of the Society for Propagating the Gospel Among the Indians and Others.

FRANCIS SCOTT KEY (ATTORNEY; AUTHOR OF 'THE STAR-SPANGLED BANNER"): Manager and Vice-President of the American Sunday School Union.

GABRIEL DUVALL, SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE

GEORGE MADISON (GOVERNOR OF KENTUCKY): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

GEORGE MASON, FATHER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS

GEORGE WASHINGTON

GOUVERNEUR MORRIS, PENMAN AND SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION

GUNNING BEDFORD, SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION

INCREASE SUMNER (GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS): Member of the Society for Propagating the Gospel Among the Indians and Others.

ISAAC SHELBY (REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; GOVERNOR OF KENTUCKY): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

JACOB BROOM, SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION

JAMES BOWDOIN (GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS): Member of the Society for Propagating the Gospel Among the Indians and Others.

JAMES BROWN (U. S. SENATOR; DIPLOMAT): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

JAMES BURRILL, JR. (CHIEF-JUSTICE OF RHODE ISLAND SUPREME COURT; U. S. SENATOR): President of the Providence Auxiliary Bible Society.

JAMES IREDELL, U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE

JAMES KENT, FATHER OF AMERICAN JURISPRUDENCE

JAMES MADISON

JAMES MCHENRY (SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION): President of the Baltimore Bible Society.

JAMES SULLIVAN (GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS; U. S. CONGRESSMAN): Member of the Society for Propagating the Gospel Among the Indians and Others.

JOEL BARLOW (DIPLOMAT UNDER WASHINGTON AND ADAMS): Chaplain in the American Revolution for three years.

JOHN ADAMS

JOHN BROOKS (GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS; REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL): President of Middlesex County Bible Society.

JOHN COTTON SMITH (GOVERNOR OF CONNECTICUT; U. S. CONGRESSMAN): President of the Litchfield County Foreign Missionary Society; first President of the Connecticut Bible Society; President of the American Bible Society; President of the American Board of Foreign Missions.

JOHN DAVENPORT (REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; U. S. CONGRESS): Member of the Missionary Society of Connecticut.

JOHN DICKINSON, SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION

JOHN HAMILTON (MAJOR~GENERAL IN THE REVOLUTION; U. S. CONGRESS): Member of the New Jersey Bible Society.

JOHN HART, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION

JOHN JAY (ORIGINAL CHIEF-JUSTICE OF THE U. S. SUPREME COURT): President of the American Bible Society; member of American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions.

JOHN LANGDON (SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION): Vice-President of the American Bible Society.

JOHN LOWELL (REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS): Member of the Society for the Propagating of the Gospel among the Indians and Others.

JOHN MARSHALL (CHIEF-JUSTICE OF THE U. S. SUPREME COURT; SECRETARY OF STATE; REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL): Vice-President of the American Bible Society; officer in the American Sunday School Union.

JOHN MORTON, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION

JOHN QUINCY ADAMS: Vice-President of the American Bible Society; of the Massachusetts Bible Society.

JOHN RANDOLPH OF ROANOKE, U. S. CONGRESSMAN; U. S. DIPLOMAT

JOHN TREADWELL (GOVERNOR OF CONNECTICUT; MEMBER OF CONTINENTAL CONGRESS): Member of the Missionary Society of Connecticut.

JOHN WITHERSPOON, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION

JONAS GALUSHA (GOVERNOR OF VERMONT): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

JONATHAN TRUMBULL, GOVERNOR OF CONNECTICUT

JOSEPH BLOOMFIELD (GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY): Member of the New Jersey Bible Society.

JOSEPH NOURSE (REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; U. S. TREASURY): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

JOSIAH BARTLETT, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION

MARQUIS DE LAFAYETTE (REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL): Member of the American Sunday School Union.

PATRICK HENRY

PETER VROOM (GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY; U. S. CONGRESSMAN): Vice-President of the American Bible Society; member of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions.

RICHARD STOCKTON, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION

ROBERT TREAT PAINE (SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION): Military Chaplain.

ROBERT TROUP (FEDERAL JUDGE; SECRETARY OF WAR): Vice-President of the American Bible Society.

ROGER SHERMAN, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION

RUFUS KING (SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION): Selected as manager@ of the American Bible Society.

RUFUS PUTNAM (REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; FEDERAL JUDGE): President of the Ohio Bible Society.

SAMUEL ADAMS, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION

SAMUEL DEXTER (SECRETARY OF WAR UNDER ADAMS; U. S. CONGRESSMAN; U. S. SENATOR): Society for Propagating the Gospel Among the Indians and Others.

SMITH THOMPSON (U. S. SUPREME COURT; SECRETARY OF NAVY): Vice-President of the American Bible Society.

THOMAS POSEY (REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; GOVERNOR OF INDIANA; U. S. SENATOR): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

THOMAS WORTHINGTON (GOVERNOR OF OHIO; U. S. SENATOR): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

TIMOTHY PICKERING, REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; SECRETARY OF STATE

WILLIAM GASTON (CHIEF-JUSTICE OF NORTH CAROLINA SUPREME COURT; U. S. REPRESENTATIVE): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

WILLIAM GRAY (LT. GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS; U. S. SENATOR): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

WILLIAM JONES (GOVERNOR OF RHODE ISLAND): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

WILLIAM PHILLIPS (LT GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS FOR TERMS): President of the Society for Propagating the Gospel Among the Indians; President of the Massachusetts Bible Society; member of the American Board of Foreign Missions; Vice-President of the American Bible Society; President of the American Society for Educating Pious Youth for the Gospel Ministry.

WILLIAM SAMUEL JOHNSON, SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION

WILLIAM TILGHMAN (FEDERAL JUDGE; CHIEF-JUSTICE OF PENNSYLVANIA SUPREME COURT): Original Officer of the American Bible Society.

WILLIAM WIRT ( U. S. ATTORNEY-GENERAL UNDER TWO PRESIDENTS): Manager of the American Sunday School Union; Vice-President of the American Bible Society.

ZEPHANIAH SWIFT, AUTHOR OF AMERICA'S FIRST LEGAL TEXT

Although Benjamin Franklin is not in this list and never claimed to be a Christian, he has left us a marvelous testimony of the nature of the people of America.

Franklin had previously explained to the French:
ad examples to youth are more rare in America, which must be comfortable consideration to parents. To this may be truly added, that serious religion, under its various denominations, is not only tolerated, but respected and practised. Atheism is unknown there; infidelity [a disbelief in the Scriptures and in Christianity ] rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in that country, without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an atheist or an infidel.
Founding Fathers

 

[AllieBaba]

Allie, you and Bass are christian extremists, while most others on here are not.

Once again, define "extremist". I maintain you consider anyone who proclaims a belief in God as an "extremist".