Theocracies

[sparky]

Well i'm recovering catholic Mike , probably worse than an ex smoker in a jazz bar....

~S~

 

[Mike Dwight]

Just replying sparky. Oh, you know they DO get brainwashed. "make (someone) adopt radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible pressure". Catholics I meet don't even know what they're talking about, and they're mean about it too. Listen to this, in Highschool I ran into a group of Catholics, they all know each other and I don't know that joke. So I make the mistake even Joining an abortion conversation. Nobody explains anything or what they're saying , they shake their heads look at you like a retard with a smile on their face, I start sounding like a retard, "look, if that gum on the floor had some life in it, you mean germs in that need to be OK". I don't even know this is all Catholic. Its too late with all these movies about how they can molest people. Its a recruitment joke for Protestants overseas, hey, did you know, they get Priestly private time with your wife, you should go Presbyterian. Umm... As a Jazz Musician, listen, I'm offended, they drink. Ya, you have to go under age to a lot of bars. Like an Alcoholic at a jazz bar. Thank you. Paul Desmond sounds like a drunk woman.

 

[sparky]

As a Jazz Musician, listen, I'm offended, they drink. Ya, you have to go under age to a lot of bars. Like an Alcoholic at a jazz bar. Thank you.

Our cool cat guitarist sez two mistakes makes jazz , jive religion those alligators have, but love their chops!

~S~

 

[Natural Citizen]

Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?

I don't believe that any other country in history aside from the United States has ever made the principle that man is of Divine origin the basis for their governmental philosophy.

That said, even our own country has devolved to the point that the state is the most recognized and worshipped deity. Statism is a religion of its own.

 

[ding]

Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?

I don't believe that any other country in history aside from the United States has ever made the principle that man is of Divine origin the basis for their governmental philosophy.

That said, even our own country has devolved to the point that the state is the most recognized and worshipped deity. Statism is a religion of its own.

I don't believe the US did do that. God was used as their authority for seceding; for revolting; for over throwing; for rebelling. Not for governing.

There will always be three natural allegiances for man because there are three natural allegiances of man; God, Country and Family. And in that order too for good reason.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I don't believe the US did do that. God was used as their authority for seceding; for revolting; for over throwing; for rebelling. Not for governing.

There will always be three natural allegiances for man because there are three natural allegiances of man; God, Country and Family. And in that order too for good reason.

Here's a snip from a great book on the topic. The book is entitled The American Ideal of 1776: The Twelve Basic American Principles, by Hamilton Abert Long, c1776.

It's a good book, one that I often recommend to friends who are interested in learning more about the fundamental nature of our Republic.

Anyway. As I said, I'm just going to snip here, take from it what you want, Ding.


Principle 1. (and correctly so) The Spiritual is Supreme

". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." (Declaration of Independence)



The Principle

1. The fundamental principle underlying the traditional American philosophy is that the Spiritual is supreme--that Man is of Divine origin and his spiritual, or religious, nature is of supreme value and importance compared with things material.

Religious Nature

2. This governmental philosophy is, therefore, essentially religious in nature. It is uniquely American; no other people in all history have ever made this principle the basis of their governmental philosophy. The spiritual brotherhood of men under the common fatherhood of God is a concept which is basic to this American philosophy. It expresses the spiritual relationship of God to Man and, in the light thereof, of Man to Man.

To forget these truths is a most heinous offense against the spirit of traditional America because the greatest sin is the lost consciousness of sin.

The fundamentally religious basis of this philosophy is the foundation of its moral code, which contemplates The Individual's moral duty as being created by God's Law: the Natural Law. The Individual's duty requires obedience to this Higher Law; while knowledge of this duty comes from conscience, which the religious-minded and morally-aware Individual feels duty-bound to heed. This philosophy asserts that there are moral absolutes: truths, such as those mentioned above, which are binding upon all Individuals at all times under all circumstances. This indicates some of the spiritual and moral values which are inherent in its concept of Individual Liberty-Responsibility.

An Indivisible Whole

3. The American philosophy, based upon this principle, is an indivisible whole and must be accepted or rejected as such. It cannot be treated piece-meal. Its fundamentals and its implicit meanings and obligations must be accepted together with its benefits.

The Individual's Self-respect

4. The concept of Man's spiritual nature, and the resulting concept of the supreme dignity and value of each Individual, provide the fundamental basis for each Individual's self-respect and the consequent mutual respect among Individual's. This self-respect as well as this mutual respect are the outgrowth of, and evidenced by, The Individual's maintenance of his God-given, unalienable rights. They are maintained by requiring that government and other Individuals respect them, as well as by his dedication to his own unceasing growth toward realization of his highest potential--spiritually, morally, intellectually, in every aspect of life. This is in order that he may merit maximum respect by self and by others.

Some Things Excluded

5. This concept of Man's spiritual nature excludes any idea of intrusion by government into this Man-to-Man spiritual relationship. It excludes the anti-moral precept that the end justifies the means and the related idea that the means can be separated from the end when judging them morally. This concept therefore excludes necessarily any idea of attempting to do good by force--for instance, through coercion of Man by Government, whether or not claimed to be for his own good or for the so-called common good or general welfare.

It excludes disbelief in--even doubt as to the existence of--God as the Creator of Man: and therefore excludes all ideas, theories and schools of thought--however ethical and lofty in intentions--which reject affirmative and positive belief in God as Man's Creator.

The Truly American Concept

6. Only those ideas, programs and practices, regarding things governmental, which are consistent with the concept that "The Spiritual is supreme" can justly be claimed to be truly American traditionally. Anything and everything governmental, which is in conflict with this concept, is non-American--judged by traditional belief.

This applies particularly to that which is agnostic, or atheistic--neutral about, or hostile to, positive and affirmative belief in this concept based upon belief in God as Man's Creator. There is not room for doubt, much less disbelief, in this regard from the standpoint of the traditional American philosophy. Its indivisible nature makes this inescapably true. This pertains, of course, to the realm of ideas and not to any person; it is the conflicting idea which is classified as non-American, according to this philosophy.

America a Haven For All Religions

7. The traditional American philosophy teaches that belief in God is the fundamental link which unites the adherents of all religions in a spiritual brotherhood. This philosophy allows for no differentiation between them in this unifying conviction: ". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." This philosophy is all inclusive as to believers in God. Although America was originally colonized predominantly by adherents of the Christian religion, and principally by Protestants, the Founding Fathers steadfastly conformed to this all-embracing character of the approach of the American philosophy to religion. This was expressly and affirmatively indicated in the proclamation of 1776 of the fundamental American philosophy, of its basic principles, in the Declaration of Independence. This was further indicated, negatively, in 1787-1788 by the Framers and Ratifiers of the Constitution--as a "blueprint" for the structure of the then proposed Federal government, with strictly limited powers--by not permitting it to possess any power with regard to religion. This implied prohibition against the Federal government was reinforced by the addition of the First Amendment expressly prohibiting it, through the Congress, from making any law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."--the words "an establishment of religion" being intended to mean, specifically and only, a church or religious organization which is established, supported and preferred by the government, like the Church of England establishments then existing in some of the States.

The Conclusion

8. Belief in Man's Divine origin is the foundation of the fundamental American principle which controls his relationship to government: that Man--The Individual--is of supreme dignity and value because of his spiritual nature.



I'll throw in some quotes in support of the principle as well, all of which are sourced in the book. Most of which are taken directly from the Founders of our Republic.

Quotes from The American Ideal of 1776 supporting this Principle.

 

[ding]

I don't believe the US did do that. God was used as their authority for seceding; for revolting; for over throwing; for rebelling. Not for governing.

There will always be three natural allegiances for man because there are three natural allegiances of man; God, Country and Family. And in that order too for good reason.

Here's a snip from a great book on the topic. The book is entitled The American Ideal of 1776: The Twelve Basic American Principles, by Hamilton Abert Long, c1776.

It's a good book, one that I often recommend to friends who are interested in learning more about the fundamental nature of our Republic.

Anyway. As I said, I'm just going to snip here, take from it what you want, Ding.


Principle 1. (and correctly so) The Spiritual is Supreme

". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." (Declaration of Independence)



The Principle

1. The fundamental principle underlying the traditional American philosophy is that the Spiritual is supreme--that Man is of Divine origin and his spiritual, or religious, nature is of supreme value and importance compared with things material.

Religious Nature

2. This governmental philosophy is, therefore, essentially religious in nature. It is uniquely American; no other people in all history have ever made this principle the basis of their governmental philosophy. The spiritual brotherhood of men under the common fatherhood of God is a concept which is basic to this American philosophy. It expresses the spiritual relationship of God to Man and, in the light thereof, of Man to Man.

To forget these truths is a most heinous offense against the spirit of traditional America because the greatest sin is the lost consciousness of sin.

The fundamentally religious basis of this philosophy is the foundation of its moral code, which contemplates The Individual's moral duty as being created by God's Law: the Natural Law. The Individual's duty requires obedience to this Higher Law; while knowledge of this duty comes from conscience, which the religious-minded and morally-aware Individual feels duty-bound to heed. This philosophy asserts that there are moral absolutes: truths, such as those mentioned above, which are binding upon all Individuals at all times under all circumstances. This indicates some of the spiritual and moral values which are inherent in its concept of Individual Liberty-Responsibility.

An Indivisible Whole

3. The American philosophy, based upon this principle, is an indivisible whole and must be accepted or rejected as such. It cannot be treated piece-meal. Its fundamentals and its implicit meanings and obligations must be accepted together with its benefits.

The Individual's Self-respect

4. The concept of Man's spiritual nature, and the resulting concept of the supreme dignity and value of each Individual, provide the fundamental basis for each Individual's self-respect and the consequent mutual respect among Individual's. This self-respect as well as this mutual respect are the outgrowth of, and evidenced by, The Individual's maintenance of his God-given, unalienable rights. They are maintained by requiring that government and other Individuals respect them, as well as by his dedication to his own unceasing growth toward realization of his highest potential--spiritually, morally, intellectually, in every aspect of life. This is in order that he may merit maximum respect by self and by others.

Some Things Excluded

5. This concept of Man's spiritual nature excludes any idea of intrusion by government into this Man-to-Man spiritual relationship. It excludes the anti-moral precept that the end justifies the means and the related idea that the means can be separated from the end when judging them morally. This concept therefore excludes necessarily any idea of attempting to do good by force--for instance, through coercion of Man by Government, whether or not claimed to be for his own good or for the so-called common good or general welfare.

It excludes disbelief in--even doubt as to the existence of--God as the Creator of Man: and therefore excludes all ideas, theories and schools of thought--however ethical and lofty in intentions--which reject affirmative and positive belief in God as Man's Creator.

The Truly American Concept

6. Only those ideas, programs and practices, regarding things governmental, which are consistent with the concept that "The Spiritual is supreme" can justly be claimed to be truly American traditionally. Anything and everything governmental, which is in conflict with this concept, is non-American--judged by traditional belief.

This applies particularly to that which is agnostic, or atheistic--neutral about, or hostile to, positive and affirmative belief in this concept based upon belief in God as Man's Creator. There is not room for doubt, much less disbelief, in this regard from the standpoint of the traditional American philosophy. Its indivisible nature makes this inescapably true. This pertains, of course, to the realm of ideas and not to any person; it is the conflicting idea which is classified as non-American, according to this philosophy.

America a Haven For All Religions

7. The traditional American philosophy teaches that belief in God is the fundamental link which unites the adherents of all religions in a spiritual brotherhood. This philosophy allows for no differentiation between them in this unifying conviction: ". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." This philosophy is all inclusive as to believers in God. Although America was originally colonized predominantly by adherents of the Christian religion, and principally by Protestants, the Founding Fathers steadfastly conformed to this all-embracing character of the approach of the American philosophy to religion. This was expressly and affirmatively indicated in the proclamation of 1776 of the fundamental American philosophy, of its basic principles, in the Declaration of Independence. This was further indicated, negatively, in 1787-1788 by the Framers and Ratifiers of the Constitution--as a "blueprint" for the structure of the then proposed Federal government, with strictly limited powers--by not permitting it to possess any power with regard to religion. This implied prohibition against the Federal government was reinforced by the addition of the First Amendment expressly prohibiting it, through the Congress, from making any law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."--the words "an establishment of religion" being intended to mean, specifically and only, a church or religious organization which is established, supported and preferred by the government, like the Church of England establishments then existing in some of the States.

The Conclusion

8. Belief in Man's Divine origin is the foundation of the fundamental American principle which controls his relationship to government: that Man--The Individual--is of supreme dignity and value because of his spiritual nature.



I'll throw in some quotes in support of the principle as well, all of which are sourced in the book. Most of which are taken directly from the Founders of our Republic.

Quotes from The American Ideal of 1776 supporting this Principle.

I don't dispute the conclusion. Nor do I dispute the importance of Christianity in our founding. Alexis De Tocqueville witnessed and documented it. I am disputing the word philosophy. It was their authority.

 

[Correll]

Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?

As you lefties act like letting the Boy Scouts have a meeting in a Firehall, is government establishment of religion,


the bar for "theocracy" has to be pretty low.


YOUR nation had an established state religion for it's Golden Age did it not? Indeed, aren't you still technically doing that?



I would say the British Empire is such an example.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I don't believe the US did do that. God was used as their authority for seceding; for revolting; for over throwing; for rebelling. Not for governing.

There will always be three natural allegiances for man because there are three natural allegiances of man; God, Country and Family. And in that order too for good reason.

Here's a snip from a great book on the topic. The book is entitled The American Ideal of 1776: The Twelve Basic American Principles, by Hamilton Abert Long, c1776.

It's a good book, one that I often recommend to friends who are interested in learning more about the fundamental nature of our Republic.

Anyway. As I said, I'm just going to snip here, take from it what you want, Ding.


Principle 1. (and correctly so) The Spiritual is Supreme

". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." (Declaration of Independence)



The Principle

1. The fundamental principle underlying the traditional American philosophy is that the Spiritual is supreme--that Man is of Divine origin and his spiritual, or religious, nature is of supreme value and importance compared with things material.

Religious Nature

2. This governmental philosophy is, therefore, essentially religious in nature. It is uniquely American; no other people in all history have ever made this principle the basis of their governmental philosophy. The spiritual brotherhood of men under the common fatherhood of God is a concept which is basic to this American philosophy. It expresses the spiritual relationship of God to Man and, in the light thereof, of Man to Man.

To forget these truths is a most heinous offense against the spirit of traditional America because the greatest sin is the lost consciousness of sin.

The fundamentally religious basis of this philosophy is the foundation of its moral code, which contemplates The Individual's moral duty as being created by God's Law: the Natural Law. The Individual's duty requires obedience to this Higher Law; while knowledge of this duty comes from conscience, which the religious-minded and morally-aware Individual feels duty-bound to heed. This philosophy asserts that there are moral absolutes: truths, such as those mentioned above, which are binding upon all Individuals at all times under all circumstances. This indicates some of the spiritual and moral values which are inherent in its concept of Individual Liberty-Responsibility.

An Indivisible Whole

3. The American philosophy, based upon this principle, is an indivisible whole and must be accepted or rejected as such. It cannot be treated piece-meal. Its fundamentals and its implicit meanings and obligations must be accepted together with its benefits.

The Individual's Self-respect

4. The concept of Man's spiritual nature, and the resulting concept of the supreme dignity and value of each Individual, provide the fundamental basis for each Individual's self-respect and the consequent mutual respect among Individual's. This self-respect as well as this mutual respect are the outgrowth of, and evidenced by, The Individual's maintenance of his God-given, unalienable rights. They are maintained by requiring that government and other Individuals respect them, as well as by his dedication to his own unceasing growth toward realization of his highest potential--spiritually, morally, intellectually, in every aspect of life. This is in order that he may merit maximum respect by self and by others.

Some Things Excluded

5. This concept of Man's spiritual nature excludes any idea of intrusion by government into this Man-to-Man spiritual relationship. It excludes the anti-moral precept that the end justifies the means and the related idea that the means can be separated from the end when judging them morally. This concept therefore excludes necessarily any idea of attempting to do good by force--for instance, through coercion of Man by Government, whether or not claimed to be for his own good or for the so-called common good or general welfare.

It excludes disbelief in--even doubt as to the existence of--God as the Creator of Man: and therefore excludes all ideas, theories and schools of thought--however ethical and lofty in intentions--which reject affirmative and positive belief in God as Man's Creator.

The Truly American Concept

6. Only those ideas, programs and practices, regarding things governmental, which are consistent with the concept that "The Spiritual is supreme" can justly be claimed to be truly American traditionally. Anything and everything governmental, which is in conflict with this concept, is non-American--judged by traditional belief.

This applies particularly to that which is agnostic, or atheistic--neutral about, or hostile to, positive and affirmative belief in this concept based upon belief in God as Man's Creator. There is not room for doubt, much less disbelief, in this regard from the standpoint of the traditional American philosophy. Its indivisible nature makes this inescapably true. This pertains, of course, to the realm of ideas and not to any person; it is the conflicting idea which is classified as non-American, according to this philosophy.

America a Haven For All Religions

7. The traditional American philosophy teaches that belief in God is the fundamental link which unites the adherents of all religions in a spiritual brotherhood. This philosophy allows for no differentiation between them in this unifying conviction: ". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." This philosophy is all inclusive as to believers in God. Although America was originally colonized predominantly by adherents of the Christian religion, and principally by Protestants, the Founding Fathers steadfastly conformed to this all-embracing character of the approach of the American philosophy to religion. This was expressly and affirmatively indicated in the proclamation of 1776 of the fundamental American philosophy, of its basic principles, in the Declaration of Independence. This was further indicated, negatively, in 1787-1788 by the Framers and Ratifiers of the Constitution--as a "blueprint" for the structure of the then proposed Federal government, with strictly limited powers--by not permitting it to possess any power with regard to religion. This implied prohibition against the Federal government was reinforced by the addition of the First Amendment expressly prohibiting it, through the Congress, from making any law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."--the words "an establishment of religion" being intended to mean, specifically and only, a church or religious organization which is established, supported and preferred by the government, like the Church of England establishments then existing in some of the States.

The Conclusion

8. Belief in Man's Divine origin is the foundation of the fundamental American principle which controls his relationship to government: that Man--The Individual--is of supreme dignity and value because of his spiritual nature.



I'll throw in some quotes in support of the principle as well, all of which are sourced in the book. Most of which are taken directly from the Founders of our Republic.

Quotes from The American Ideal of 1776 supporting this Principle.

I don't dispute the conclusion. Nor do I dispute the importance of Christianity in our founding. Alexis De Tocqueville witnessed and documented it. I am disputing the word philosophy. It was their authority.

Well. This just isn't the thread to have that discusion, Ding. I'm not having that discussion in Tommy gosh darned Tainant's thread. lol. What we're talking about is adult speak. You can start a thread on it if you want, on your own terms even, I'll shoot the breeze with you about it.

 

[ding]

I don't believe the US did do that. God was used as their authority for seceding; for revolting; for over throwing; for rebelling. Not for governing.

There will always be three natural allegiances for man because there are three natural allegiances of man; God, Country and Family. And in that order too for good reason.

Here's a snip from a great book on the topic. The book is entitled The American Ideal of 1776: The Twelve Basic American Principles, by Hamilton Abert Long, c1776.

It's a good book, one that I often recommend to friends who are interested in learning more about the fundamental nature of our Republic.

Anyway. As I said, I'm just going to snip here, take from it what you want, Ding.


Principle 1. (and correctly so) The Spiritual is Supreme

". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." (Declaration of Independence)



The Principle

1. The fundamental principle underlying the traditional American philosophy is that the Spiritual is supreme--that Man is of Divine origin and his spiritual, or religious, nature is of supreme value and importance compared with things material.

Religious Nature

2. This governmental philosophy is, therefore, essentially religious in nature. It is uniquely American; no other people in all history have ever made this principle the basis of their governmental philosophy. The spiritual brotherhood of men under the common fatherhood of God is a concept which is basic to this American philosophy. It expresses the spiritual relationship of God to Man and, in the light thereof, of Man to Man.

To forget these truths is a most heinous offense against the spirit of traditional America because the greatest sin is the lost consciousness of sin.

The fundamentally religious basis of this philosophy is the foundation of its moral code, which contemplates The Individual's moral duty as being created by God's Law: the Natural Law. The Individual's duty requires obedience to this Higher Law; while knowledge of this duty comes from conscience, which the religious-minded and morally-aware Individual feels duty-bound to heed. This philosophy asserts that there are moral absolutes: truths, such as those mentioned above, which are binding upon all Individuals at all times under all circumstances. This indicates some of the spiritual and moral values which are inherent in its concept of Individual Liberty-Responsibility.

An Indivisible Whole

3. The American philosophy, based upon this principle, is an indivisible whole and must be accepted or rejected as such. It cannot be treated piece-meal. Its fundamentals and its implicit meanings and obligations must be accepted together with its benefits.

The Individual's Self-respect

4. The concept of Man's spiritual nature, and the resulting concept of the supreme dignity and value of each Individual, provide the fundamental basis for each Individual's self-respect and the consequent mutual respect among Individual's. This self-respect as well as this mutual respect are the outgrowth of, and evidenced by, The Individual's maintenance of his God-given, unalienable rights. They are maintained by requiring that government and other Individuals respect them, as well as by his dedication to his own unceasing growth toward realization of his highest potential--spiritually, morally, intellectually, in every aspect of life. This is in order that he may merit maximum respect by self and by others.

Some Things Excluded

5. This concept of Man's spiritual nature excludes any idea of intrusion by government into this Man-to-Man spiritual relationship. It excludes the anti-moral precept that the end justifies the means and the related idea that the means can be separated from the end when judging them morally. This concept therefore excludes necessarily any idea of attempting to do good by force--for instance, through coercion of Man by Government, whether or not claimed to be for his own good or for the so-called common good or general welfare.

It excludes disbelief in--even doubt as to the existence of--God as the Creator of Man: and therefore excludes all ideas, theories and schools of thought--however ethical and lofty in intentions--which reject affirmative and positive belief in God as Man's Creator.

The Truly American Concept

6. Only those ideas, programs and practices, regarding things governmental, which are consistent with the concept that "The Spiritual is supreme" can justly be claimed to be truly American traditionally. Anything and everything governmental, which is in conflict with this concept, is non-American--judged by traditional belief.

This applies particularly to that which is agnostic, or atheistic--neutral about, or hostile to, positive and affirmative belief in this concept based upon belief in God as Man's Creator. There is not room for doubt, much less disbelief, in this regard from the standpoint of the traditional American philosophy. Its indivisible nature makes this inescapably true. This pertains, of course, to the realm of ideas and not to any person; it is the conflicting idea which is classified as non-American, according to this philosophy.

America a Haven For All Religions

7. The traditional American philosophy teaches that belief in God is the fundamental link which unites the adherents of all religions in a spiritual brotherhood. This philosophy allows for no differentiation between them in this unifying conviction: ". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." This philosophy is all inclusive as to believers in God. Although America was originally colonized predominantly by adherents of the Christian religion, and principally by Protestants, the Founding Fathers steadfastly conformed to this all-embracing character of the approach of the American philosophy to religion. This was expressly and affirmatively indicated in the proclamation of 1776 of the fundamental American philosophy, of its basic principles, in the Declaration of Independence. This was further indicated, negatively, in 1787-1788 by the Framers and Ratifiers of the Constitution--as a "blueprint" for the structure of the then proposed Federal government, with strictly limited powers--by not permitting it to possess any power with regard to religion. This implied prohibition against the Federal government was reinforced by the addition of the First Amendment expressly prohibiting it, through the Congress, from making any law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."--the words "an establishment of religion" being intended to mean, specifically and only, a church or religious organization which is established, supported and preferred by the government, like the Church of England establishments then existing in some of the States.

The Conclusion

8. Belief in Man's Divine origin is the foundation of the fundamental American principle which controls his relationship to government: that Man--The Individual--is of supreme dignity and value because of his spiritual nature.



I'll throw in some quotes in support of the principle as well, all of which are sourced in the book. Most of which are taken directly from the Founders of our Republic.

Quotes from The American Ideal of 1776 supporting this Principle.

I don't dispute the conclusion. Nor do I dispute the importance of Christianity in our founding. Alexis De Tocqueville witnessed and documented it. I am disputing the word philosophy. It was their authority.

Well. This just isn't the thread to have that discusion, Ding. I'm not having that discussion in Tommy gosh darned Tainant's thread. lol. What we're talking about is adult speak. You can start a thread on it if you want, on your own terms even, I'll shoot the breeze with you about it.

It kind of is relevant to this thread. Our country wasn't founded as a theocracy. We derived our authority to form our own nation from God but we did not create a theocracy. Despite the fact that the establishment clause was specifically written to prevent the national government from interfering with the established state religions of which half of the states had at the time of the founding.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?

It depends on what is meant by ‘success.’

All theocracies are brutal and authoritarian, the people have no rights and protected liberties, religious minorities are subject to discrimination, the rule of law and the right to due process have been destroyed.

Are theocracies ‘successful’ solely because they remain in power the consequence of their brutal authoritarianism, or has a theocracy failed because the people are subject to brutal authoritarianism regardless its ability to remain in power.

 

[irosie91]

Saudi Arabia is a successful theocracy.

So is Iran, Qatar, Oman, Malaysia, Indonesia, Sudan, Mauritania, and several other muslim majority countries. ...

they are all cesspits-----with the possible exception of Oman-----since no one
cares anymore.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Saudi Arabia is a successful theocracy.

So is Iran, Qatar, Oman, Malaysia, Indonesia, Sudan, Mauritania, and several other muslim majority countries. ...

Is Saudi Arabia a ‘theocracy’ or merely a brutal dictatorship hiding behind the façade of religious dogma – indeed, theists should reject the notion of Saudi Arabia a successful theocracy because it proves the brutal authoritarianism the consequence of conjoining religion with state, and the propensity for authoritarianism and contempt for rights and protected liberties inherent in all religious dogma.

 

[boedicca]

Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?

That depends upon how you define success. Theocracies, along other Totalitarian-Authoritarian regimes (Monarchies, Socialists, Communists, Fascists, Dictators) are regimes of Control. They are all faith-based systems used to keep populations under the thumbs of the elite. They are successful until the population rebels. Then it all goes to hell.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

That said, even our own country has devolved to the point that the state is the most recognized and worshipped deity. Statism is a religion of its own.

Just as irrational is preaching that it is a magical,evil demon....lots of that going around, too.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?

I don't believe that any other country in history aside from the United States has ever made the principle that man is of Divine origin the basis for their governmental philosophy.

That said, even our own country has devolved to the point that the state is the most recognized and worshipped deity. Statism is a religion of its own.

This illustrates the wrongheaded notion that ‘the state’ or ‘the government’ is somehow separate and apart from the people, that ‘the state’ is some malevolent entity which manifests absent the will of the people, and that the people are helpless and at the mercy of a government that is beyond their control – when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact the people and the government are one in the same: government acts at the behest of the people, the people are solely responsible for what their government does – and if the people somehow perceive government to have become unresponsive to the will of the people, authoritarian, out of touch, or ‘statist,’ then the people have only themselves to blame; indeed, ‘statism’ is not a ‘religion,’ but the consequence of the ignorance, apathy, fear, laziness, and stupidity of the people.

 

[Taz]

Saudi Arabia is a successful theocracy.

So is Iran, Qatar, Oman, Malaysia, Indonesia, Sudan, Mauritania, and several other muslim majority countries. ...

Successful for the people, not just the leaders.

And you forgot ISIL on your list.

 

[Mike Dwight]

C_Clayton_Jones that's going to really hurt my head in regard to North Korea. First off, its "Democratic" because everyone mandatorily casts a ballot with 100% of the return for the Great Dictator. In Theory, exactly the meaning of Democracy. So the People, are democratically, inseparable, from the Government, which has the only information, we bombard the North with any sort of outside information, but humans are machines, that use the available information, which is just Praise the Leader. Internet and any other Sense of free information is censored, also in China. Maybe in the most Yeomen-like age of America did we ever even take seriously, established by the People, to be overthrown when not the will of the people, I forget the constitution's wording. If we got rid of the dictator in North Korea things would probably change quickly and people.

 

[Sunni Man]

Is Saudi Arabia a ‘theocracy’ or merely a brutal dictatorship hiding behind the façade of religious dogma – indeed, theists should reject the notion of Saudi Arabia a successful theocracy because it proves the brutal authoritarianism the consequence of conjoining religion with state, and the propensity for authoritarianism and contempt for rights and protected liberties inherent in all religious dogma.

Theocracies are not authoritarian, in that the people have full civil rights to live in freedom within the agreed upon religious laws, morals, and social boundaries, set in place by the state's religion. ....

 

[danielpalos]

Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?

over two thousand years and counting.