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Our cool cat guitarist sez two mistakes makes jazz , jive religion those alligators have, but love their chops!As a Jazz Musician, listen, I'm offended, they drink. Ya, you have to go under age to a lot of bars. Like an Alcoholic at a jazz bar. Thank you.
Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?
I don't believe the US did do that. God was used as their authority for seceding; for revolting; for over throwing; for rebelling. Not for governing.Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?
I don't believe that any other country in history aside from the United States has ever made the principle that man is of Divine origin the basis for their governmental philosophy.
That said, even our own country has devolved to the point that the state is the most recognized and worshipped deity. Statism is a religion of its own.
I don't believe the US did do that. God was used as their authority for seceding; for revolting; for over throwing; for rebelling. Not for governing.
There will always be three natural allegiances for man because there are three natural allegiances of man; God, Country and Family. And in that order too for good reason.
I don't dispute the conclusion. Nor do I dispute the importance of Christianity in our founding. Alexis De Tocqueville witnessed and documented it. I am disputing the word philosophy. It was their authority.I don't believe the US did do that. God was used as their authority for seceding; for revolting; for over throwing; for rebelling. Not for governing.
There will always be three natural allegiances for man because there are three natural allegiances of man; God, Country and Family. And in that order too for good reason.
Here's a snip from a great book on the topic. The book is entitled The American Ideal of 1776: The Twelve Basic American Principles, by Hamilton Abert Long, c1776.
It's a good book, one that I often recommend to friends who are interested in learning more about the fundamental nature of our Republic.
Anyway. As I said, I'm just going to snip here, take from it what you want, Ding.
Principle 1. (and correctly so) The Spiritual is Supreme
". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." (Declaration of Independence)
The Principle
1. The fundamental principle underlying the traditional American philosophy is that the Spiritual is supreme--that Man is of Divine origin and his spiritual, or religious, nature is of supreme value and importance compared with things material.
Religious Nature
2. This governmental philosophy is, therefore, essentially religious in nature. It is uniquely American; no other people in all history have ever made this principle the basis of their governmental philosophy. The spiritual brotherhood of men under the common fatherhood of God is a concept which is basic to this American philosophy. It expresses the spiritual relationship of God to Man and, in the light thereof, of Man to Man.
To forget these truths is a most heinous offense against the spirit of traditional America because the greatest sin is the lost consciousness of sin.
The fundamentally religious basis of this philosophy is the foundation of its moral code, which contemplates The Individual's moral duty as being created by God's Law: the Natural Law. The Individual's duty requires obedience to this Higher Law; while knowledge of this duty comes from conscience, which the religious-minded and morally-aware Individual feels duty-bound to heed. This philosophy asserts that there are moral absolutes: truths, such as those mentioned above, which are binding upon all Individuals at all times under all circumstances. This indicates some of the spiritual and moral values which are inherent in its concept of Individual Liberty-Responsibility.
An Indivisible Whole
3. The American philosophy, based upon this principle, is an indivisible whole and must be accepted or rejected as such. It cannot be treated piece-meal. Its fundamentals and its implicit meanings and obligations must be accepted together with its benefits.
The Individual's Self-respect
4. The concept of Man's spiritual nature, and the resulting concept of the supreme dignity and value of each Individual, provide the fundamental basis for each Individual's self-respect and the consequent mutual respect among Individual's. This self-respect as well as this mutual respect are the outgrowth of, and evidenced by, The Individual's maintenance of his God-given, unalienable rights. They are maintained by requiring that government and other Individuals respect them, as well as by his dedication to his own unceasing growth toward realization of his highest potential--spiritually, morally, intellectually, in every aspect of life. This is in order that he may merit maximum respect by self and by others.
Some Things Excluded
5. This concept of Man's spiritual nature excludes any idea of intrusion by government into this Man-to-Man spiritual relationship. It excludes the anti-moral precept that the end justifies the means and the related idea that the means can be separated from the end when judging them morally. This concept therefore excludes necessarily any idea of attempting to do good by force--for instance, through coercion of Man by Government, whether or not claimed to be for his own good or for the so-called common good or general welfare.
It excludes disbelief in--even doubt as to the existence of--God as the Creator of Man: and therefore excludes all ideas, theories and schools of thought--however ethical and lofty in intentions--which reject affirmative and positive belief in God as Man's Creator.
The Truly American Concept
6. Only those ideas, programs and practices, regarding things governmental, which are consistent with the concept that "The Spiritual is supreme" can justly be claimed to be truly American traditionally. Anything and everything governmental, which is in conflict with this concept, is non-American--judged by traditional belief.
This applies particularly to that which is agnostic, or atheistic--neutral about, or hostile to, positive and affirmative belief in this concept based upon belief in God as Man's Creator. There is not room for doubt, much less disbelief, in this regard from the standpoint of the traditional American philosophy. Its indivisible nature makes this inescapably true. This pertains, of course, to the realm of ideas and not to any person; it is the conflicting idea which is classified as non-American, according to this philosophy.
America a Haven For All Religions
7. The traditional American philosophy teaches that belief in God is the fundamental link which unites the adherents of all religions in a spiritual brotherhood. This philosophy allows for no differentiation between them in this unifying conviction: ". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." This philosophy is all inclusive as to believers in God. Although America was originally colonized predominantly by adherents of the Christian religion, and principally by Protestants, the Founding Fathers steadfastly conformed to this all-embracing character of the approach of the American philosophy to religion. This was expressly and affirmatively indicated in the proclamation of 1776 of the fundamental American philosophy, of its basic principles, in the Declaration of Independence. This was further indicated, negatively, in 1787-1788 by the Framers and Ratifiers of the Constitution--as a "blueprint" for the structure of the then proposed Federal government, with strictly limited powers--by not permitting it to possess any power with regard to religion. This implied prohibition against the Federal government was reinforced by the addition of the First Amendment expressly prohibiting it, through the Congress, from making any law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."--the words "an establishment of religion" being intended to mean, specifically and only, a church or religious organization which is established, supported and preferred by the government, like the Church of England establishments then existing in some of the States.
The Conclusion
8. Belief in Man's Divine origin is the foundation of the fundamental American principle which controls his relationship to government: that Man--The Individual--is of supreme dignity and value because of his spiritual nature.
I'll throw in some quotes in support of the principle as well, all of which are sourced in the book. Most of which are taken directly from the Founders of our Republic.
Quotes from The American Ideal of 1776 supporting this Principle.
Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?
I don't dispute the conclusion. Nor do I dispute the importance of Christianity in our founding. Alexis De Tocqueville witnessed and documented it. I am disputing the word philosophy. It was their authority.I don't believe the US did do that. God was used as their authority for seceding; for revolting; for over throwing; for rebelling. Not for governing.
There will always be three natural allegiances for man because there are three natural allegiances of man; God, Country and Family. And in that order too for good reason.
Here's a snip from a great book on the topic. The book is entitled The American Ideal of 1776: The Twelve Basic American Principles, by Hamilton Abert Long, c1776.
It's a good book, one that I often recommend to friends who are interested in learning more about the fundamental nature of our Republic.
Anyway. As I said, I'm just going to snip here, take from it what you want, Ding.
Principle 1. (and correctly so) The Spiritual is Supreme
". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." (Declaration of Independence)
The Principle
1. The fundamental principle underlying the traditional American philosophy is that the Spiritual is supreme--that Man is of Divine origin and his spiritual, or religious, nature is of supreme value and importance compared with things material.
Religious Nature
2. This governmental philosophy is, therefore, essentially religious in nature. It is uniquely American; no other people in all history have ever made this principle the basis of their governmental philosophy. The spiritual brotherhood of men under the common fatherhood of God is a concept which is basic to this American philosophy. It expresses the spiritual relationship of God to Man and, in the light thereof, of Man to Man.
To forget these truths is a most heinous offense against the spirit of traditional America because the greatest sin is the lost consciousness of sin.
The fundamentally religious basis of this philosophy is the foundation of its moral code, which contemplates The Individual's moral duty as being created by God's Law: the Natural Law. The Individual's duty requires obedience to this Higher Law; while knowledge of this duty comes from conscience, which the religious-minded and morally-aware Individual feels duty-bound to heed. This philosophy asserts that there are moral absolutes: truths, such as those mentioned above, which are binding upon all Individuals at all times under all circumstances. This indicates some of the spiritual and moral values which are inherent in its concept of Individual Liberty-Responsibility.
An Indivisible Whole
3. The American philosophy, based upon this principle, is an indivisible whole and must be accepted or rejected as such. It cannot be treated piece-meal. Its fundamentals and its implicit meanings and obligations must be accepted together with its benefits.
The Individual's Self-respect
4. The concept of Man's spiritual nature, and the resulting concept of the supreme dignity and value of each Individual, provide the fundamental basis for each Individual's self-respect and the consequent mutual respect among Individual's. This self-respect as well as this mutual respect are the outgrowth of, and evidenced by, The Individual's maintenance of his God-given, unalienable rights. They are maintained by requiring that government and other Individuals respect them, as well as by his dedication to his own unceasing growth toward realization of his highest potential--spiritually, morally, intellectually, in every aspect of life. This is in order that he may merit maximum respect by self and by others.
Some Things Excluded
5. This concept of Man's spiritual nature excludes any idea of intrusion by government into this Man-to-Man spiritual relationship. It excludes the anti-moral precept that the end justifies the means and the related idea that the means can be separated from the end when judging them morally. This concept therefore excludes necessarily any idea of attempting to do good by force--for instance, through coercion of Man by Government, whether or not claimed to be for his own good or for the so-called common good or general welfare.
It excludes disbelief in--even doubt as to the existence of--God as the Creator of Man: and therefore excludes all ideas, theories and schools of thought--however ethical and lofty in intentions--which reject affirmative and positive belief in God as Man's Creator.
The Truly American Concept
6. Only those ideas, programs and practices, regarding things governmental, which are consistent with the concept that "The Spiritual is supreme" can justly be claimed to be truly American traditionally. Anything and everything governmental, which is in conflict with this concept, is non-American--judged by traditional belief.
This applies particularly to that which is agnostic, or atheistic--neutral about, or hostile to, positive and affirmative belief in this concept based upon belief in God as Man's Creator. There is not room for doubt, much less disbelief, in this regard from the standpoint of the traditional American philosophy. Its indivisible nature makes this inescapably true. This pertains, of course, to the realm of ideas and not to any person; it is the conflicting idea which is classified as non-American, according to this philosophy.
America a Haven For All Religions
7. The traditional American philosophy teaches that belief in God is the fundamental link which unites the adherents of all religions in a spiritual brotherhood. This philosophy allows for no differentiation between them in this unifying conviction: ". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." This philosophy is all inclusive as to believers in God. Although America was originally colonized predominantly by adherents of the Christian religion, and principally by Protestants, the Founding Fathers steadfastly conformed to this all-embracing character of the approach of the American philosophy to religion. This was expressly and affirmatively indicated in the proclamation of 1776 of the fundamental American philosophy, of its basic principles, in the Declaration of Independence. This was further indicated, negatively, in 1787-1788 by the Framers and Ratifiers of the Constitution--as a "blueprint" for the structure of the then proposed Federal government, with strictly limited powers--by not permitting it to possess any power with regard to religion. This implied prohibition against the Federal government was reinforced by the addition of the First Amendment expressly prohibiting it, through the Congress, from making any law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."--the words "an establishment of religion" being intended to mean, specifically and only, a church or religious organization which is established, supported and preferred by the government, like the Church of England establishments then existing in some of the States.
The Conclusion
8. Belief in Man's Divine origin is the foundation of the fundamental American principle which controls his relationship to government: that Man--The Individual--is of supreme dignity and value because of his spiritual nature.
I'll throw in some quotes in support of the principle as well, all of which are sourced in the book. Most of which are taken directly from the Founders of our Republic.
Quotes from The American Ideal of 1776 supporting this Principle.
It kind of is relevant to this thread. Our country wasn't founded as a theocracy. We derived our authority to form our own nation from God but we did not create a theocracy. Despite the fact that the establishment clause was specifically written to prevent the national government from interfering with the established state religions of which half of the states had at the time of the founding.I don't dispute the conclusion. Nor do I dispute the importance of Christianity in our founding. Alexis De Tocqueville witnessed and documented it. I am disputing the word philosophy. It was their authority.I don't believe the US did do that. God was used as their authority for seceding; for revolting; for over throwing; for rebelling. Not for governing.
There will always be three natural allegiances for man because there are three natural allegiances of man; God, Country and Family. And in that order too for good reason.
Here's a snip from a great book on the topic. The book is entitled The American Ideal of 1776: The Twelve Basic American Principles, by Hamilton Abert Long, c1776.
It's a good book, one that I often recommend to friends who are interested in learning more about the fundamental nature of our Republic.
Anyway. As I said, I'm just going to snip here, take from it what you want, Ding.
Principle 1. (and correctly so) The Spiritual is Supreme
". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." (Declaration of Independence)
The Principle
1. The fundamental principle underlying the traditional American philosophy is that the Spiritual is supreme--that Man is of Divine origin and his spiritual, or religious, nature is of supreme value and importance compared with things material.
Religious Nature
2. This governmental philosophy is, therefore, essentially religious in nature. It is uniquely American; no other people in all history have ever made this principle the basis of their governmental philosophy. The spiritual brotherhood of men under the common fatherhood of God is a concept which is basic to this American philosophy. It expresses the spiritual relationship of God to Man and, in the light thereof, of Man to Man.
To forget these truths is a most heinous offense against the spirit of traditional America because the greatest sin is the lost consciousness of sin.
The fundamentally religious basis of this philosophy is the foundation of its moral code, which contemplates The Individual's moral duty as being created by God's Law: the Natural Law. The Individual's duty requires obedience to this Higher Law; while knowledge of this duty comes from conscience, which the religious-minded and morally-aware Individual feels duty-bound to heed. This philosophy asserts that there are moral absolutes: truths, such as those mentioned above, which are binding upon all Individuals at all times under all circumstances. This indicates some of the spiritual and moral values which are inherent in its concept of Individual Liberty-Responsibility.
An Indivisible Whole
3. The American philosophy, based upon this principle, is an indivisible whole and must be accepted or rejected as such. It cannot be treated piece-meal. Its fundamentals and its implicit meanings and obligations must be accepted together with its benefits.
The Individual's Self-respect
4. The concept of Man's spiritual nature, and the resulting concept of the supreme dignity and value of each Individual, provide the fundamental basis for each Individual's self-respect and the consequent mutual respect among Individual's. This self-respect as well as this mutual respect are the outgrowth of, and evidenced by, The Individual's maintenance of his God-given, unalienable rights. They are maintained by requiring that government and other Individuals respect them, as well as by his dedication to his own unceasing growth toward realization of his highest potential--spiritually, morally, intellectually, in every aspect of life. This is in order that he may merit maximum respect by self and by others.
Some Things Excluded
5. This concept of Man's spiritual nature excludes any idea of intrusion by government into this Man-to-Man spiritual relationship. It excludes the anti-moral precept that the end justifies the means and the related idea that the means can be separated from the end when judging them morally. This concept therefore excludes necessarily any idea of attempting to do good by force--for instance, through coercion of Man by Government, whether or not claimed to be for his own good or for the so-called common good or general welfare.
It excludes disbelief in--even doubt as to the existence of--God as the Creator of Man: and therefore excludes all ideas, theories and schools of thought--however ethical and lofty in intentions--which reject affirmative and positive belief in God as Man's Creator.
The Truly American Concept
6. Only those ideas, programs and practices, regarding things governmental, which are consistent with the concept that "The Spiritual is supreme" can justly be claimed to be truly American traditionally. Anything and everything governmental, which is in conflict with this concept, is non-American--judged by traditional belief.
This applies particularly to that which is agnostic, or atheistic--neutral about, or hostile to, positive and affirmative belief in this concept based upon belief in God as Man's Creator. There is not room for doubt, much less disbelief, in this regard from the standpoint of the traditional American philosophy. Its indivisible nature makes this inescapably true. This pertains, of course, to the realm of ideas and not to any person; it is the conflicting idea which is classified as non-American, according to this philosophy.
America a Haven For All Religions
7. The traditional American philosophy teaches that belief in God is the fundamental link which unites the adherents of all religions in a spiritual brotherhood. This philosophy allows for no differentiation between them in this unifying conviction: ". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." This philosophy is all inclusive as to believers in God. Although America was originally colonized predominantly by adherents of the Christian religion, and principally by Protestants, the Founding Fathers steadfastly conformed to this all-embracing character of the approach of the American philosophy to religion. This was expressly and affirmatively indicated in the proclamation of 1776 of the fundamental American philosophy, of its basic principles, in the Declaration of Independence. This was further indicated, negatively, in 1787-1788 by the Framers and Ratifiers of the Constitution--as a "blueprint" for the structure of the then proposed Federal government, with strictly limited powers--by not permitting it to possess any power with regard to religion. This implied prohibition against the Federal government was reinforced by the addition of the First Amendment expressly prohibiting it, through the Congress, from making any law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."--the words "an establishment of religion" being intended to mean, specifically and only, a church or religious organization which is established, supported and preferred by the government, like the Church of England establishments then existing in some of the States.
The Conclusion
8. Belief in Man's Divine origin is the foundation of the fundamental American principle which controls his relationship to government: that Man--The Individual--is of supreme dignity and value because of his spiritual nature.
I'll throw in some quotes in support of the principle as well, all of which are sourced in the book. Most of which are taken directly from the Founders of our Republic.
Quotes from The American Ideal of 1776 supporting this Principle.
Well. This just isn't the thread to have that discusion, Ding. I'm not having that discussion in Tommy gosh darned Tainant's thread. lol. What we're talking about is adult speak. You can start a thread on it if you want, on your own terms even, I'll shoot the breeze with you about it.
It depends on what is meant by ‘success.’Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?
Saudi Arabia is a successful theocracy.
So is Iran, Qatar, Oman, Malaysia, Indonesia, Sudan, Mauritania, and several other muslim majority countries. ...
Is Saudi Arabia a ‘theocracy’ or merely a brutal dictatorship hiding behind the façade of religious dogma – indeed, theists should reject the notion of Saudi Arabia a successful theocracy because it proves the brutal authoritarianism the consequence of conjoining religion with state, and the propensity for authoritarianism and contempt for rights and protected liberties inherent in all religious dogma.Saudi Arabia is a successful theocracy.
So is Iran, Qatar, Oman, Malaysia, Indonesia, Sudan, Mauritania, and several other muslim majority countries. ...
Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?
Just as irrational is preaching that it is a magical,evil demon....lots of that going around, too.That said, even our own country has devolved to the point that the state is the most recognized and worshipped deity. Statism is a religion of its own.
This illustrates the wrongheaded notion that ‘the state’ or ‘the government’ is somehow separate and apart from the people, that ‘the state’ is some malevolent entity which manifests absent the will of the people, and that the people are helpless and at the mercy of a government that is beyond their control – when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?
I don't believe that any other country in history aside from the United States has ever made the principle that man is of Divine origin the basis for their governmental philosophy.
That said, even our own country has devolved to the point that the state is the most recognized and worshipped deity. Statism is a religion of its own.
Theocracies are not authoritarian, in that the people have full civil rights to live in freedom within the agreed upon religious laws, morals, and social boundaries, set in place by the state's religion. ....Is Saudi Arabia a ‘theocracy’ or merely a brutal dictatorship hiding behind the façade of religious dogma – indeed, theists should reject the notion of Saudi Arabia a successful theocracy because it proves the brutal authoritarianism the consequence of conjoining religion with state, and the propensity for authoritarianism and contempt for rights and protected liberties inherent in all religious dogma.
over two thousand years and counting.Are there any examples from history where these were a success ?