the wrong-headed notion of what treason is, & what patriotism is: if you disobey the orders of your government, that's not treason, that's patriotism

[basquebromance]

the Iraqi people deserve to live as much as the people in the twin towers deserve to live...you must do something in response to 9/11? just bomb! that's the only solution? c'mon!​

to believe the government is being treasonous and the government is being unpatriotic when the government violates the fundamental rights of human beings, when the government invades another country, a country that has not attacked it, a country that has not threatened it. When our government invades another country and drops bombs and kills huge numbers of people, and then Americans have the guts to go to that country and bring people food and medicine or go to see what is going on, as many Americans did when they went to Vietnam, I think these are the most patriotic Americans.

And, you know, if you define patriotism as obedience to the government, then you are, I think, following a kind of totalitarian principle, because that’s the principle of a totalitarian state, that you do what the government tells you to do. And democracy means that the government is an instrument of the people. This is the Declaration of Independence. Governments are artificial entities set up in order to preserve the rights, equal right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness of people. When the government violates those rights, it is the duty of people to defy that government. That is patriotism.

 

[easyt65]

Terrorists do exist and have committed their lives to targeting and murdering Americans. 9/11 is the best proof of this.

Evidence shows the planning and training for that attack literally took YEARS.

So during all those years of planning and preparation during which people like you went through your dull, seemingly peaceful lives,believing no one hates / hated us and wanted to harm us, our enemies were planning and making ready to slaughter 3 000 Americans.


We have always held the idea that targeting and eliminating those enemies that are very real and do exist before they make it to the US has been the best plan.

One of the problems with wars such as Iraq and Afghanistan is civilian casualties. None are ever wanted, we do our best to limit them, but killing innocent people always makes more enemies.

Allowing our enemies to continue to plan, prep, and carry out future 9/11s is also unacceptable.

I personally believe those perpetrators of future terrorist attacks will be the ones already here or ones who will come through the Drmocrats' open borders...but that is for another thread.

Our current strategy seem to be 'Whack-a-Mole/Jihadi'.
- Congrats, yiu are the newest leader of Al Qaeda & #1 US target. Please say 'cheese' and wait for the flash (from the drone strike).

This is not a simple issue you have brought up - great topic but not simple. There are so many pieces, philosophies, factors, etc...

Such as....many believe the US has great power and USED to stand up for the 'little guy', the oppressed, enslaved fighting for freedom, & we have a responsibility to stand with others fighting for or fighting to preserve their freedom.

Democrats used to be against putting US military in harm's way and risking killing civilians in other nations - 'fuck 'em, it's their problem not ours'.

Of course Biden just reversed Trump's picy and removal of troops from Somalia (Africa) and sent US troops back I'm.
- Did Joe and his administration figure out and resolve the whole 'Warlord' problem and quagmire that made Somalia such a dangerous 'swamp'? Did Joe figure out a better method of us troops intervening and fighting in Somalia, making it safer for US troops and citizens? If not, what was his justification for sending US troops back into harm's way again?

Again, your discussion opens a lot of different factors, issues, etc...a regular pandpra's box of views, issues, philosophies, opinions, and agendas...