The United States Was Born Liberal

I'm going to argue that position...

How much of any of our financial positions is directly related to the roads owned and maintained by the public?

Directly? very little. yes i get the argument; 'well how would you get to work without the tax dollars I paid for. To make the leap however that, that make me dependant on you for my livlihood is, well, quite the leap. I'm not anymore dependant on you for said road than I am myself seeing as how we both contributed to them.

How many of our choices in life, financial and otherwise, are due to the fact that public education either provided marketable skills directly to me or to my market?

This rests on a faulty premise as well and while it may seem simple it is major sociological reason people are way they are. It is entirely about behavior. The faulty premise is that if they teach it, you will learn it. Now we both went to school and probably grew up with the same types of people. The troublmakers, the stoners, the kids that just plain didn't care, the pregnanat teen. Just because a skill set is taught doesn't mean it will be learned. That comes down to the inidividual.

How much leisure time do I have because we trust each other enough to trade time for money and money for food and shelter?

Like it or not, we are dependent on one another for the lifestyle we enjoy, be it envious or tragic. Sure personal choices make a huge difference, but being a society gives us more choices.

-Joe

To an extent yes a level of dependance does exist. The issue I have is that our culture has crossed the point where we viewd that as a nice side benefit to an expectaton of it. As example the society benefits from business production and growth. Large businessess provide a standard of living for large numbers of people, so yes we can say we are dependant on the many people that keep that business running. But people like bobo have crossed a line where they feel they have the right to expect that business provide them a certain standard of living, garuntee x amount of jobs, and provide x benefits, rather than then allowing the business to conduct itself as an actual business.

I have pleaded with many on this board to change their perspective on this issue from white the right or left has done to people or what the haves have done to the have nots to arrive us at the point where we are now. It is so obvious to me that this has very little to do with the policies of one party or another or the economic system we live. I believe it is largerly a result of a cultural change in atitudes and behaviors. The main reason for this is, I was taught and it turns out to be true, that broadly there are two ways to actually achieve something you aspire to attain, be or do. A) you can become dependeant, that is wait for the system to adjust to what you want and hope it gives it to you or B) be proactive and clear the obstacles yourself. Which do you think is more productive and better for the growth of the individual.

Why are there so many have nots vs. haves? It isn't about policies or what someone is doing to someone else. It's about what people do to themselves and our change in atitude. If it continues through generations as it appears to be doing we are fucked. I know how lucky I am to have the parents I had vs. the way society seems to be going. Want an example, look no further than asanine shows like My Super Sweet Sixteen.

Culturally we have moved from survivor behavior to one in which with not an awfil lot of effort you will probably get by. And there's your answer right there as to why this divide is growing and becoming lopsided. Good enough is simply good enough for an awful lot of people and they dont' even realize that subconciously it's a choice they've made. Think about it. If you took a thousand people and laid two paths in front of them. On the left is one with difficult nearly impassable terrain with many pitfalls, but at the end is a mansion luxury car, etc. On the right is nice easy stroll through a meadow at the end of which is a quaint, servicable 3 bedroom rambler home with a Buick in the driveway. The majority of the people are going right. That's how becoming wealthy is and making the choices that insulate you from times like these is. It's just plain hard and the because of this shift away from simply survival to convience most people simply pick easy.
 
Can you show me those poor folks you are talking about. With your assessment of Bush, you would have thought unemployment rate in the United States would be 20% easily. Why are we still the #1 economic power? After all, eight years under Bush would have dropped us in the middle of the pack. As for the bailout, are you really okay with Bush calling for one. Remember, he gave the same kind of speech for the bailout that he did with WMD. So what's saying that he isn't lying about the bailout? What i see it is that $750 billion of our bailout money is going to not do a thing. You can't spend more than what you have. Printing money is only going to cause inflation to rise. Prices goes up, it's going to affect who? The rich folks? They having money in the bank. The poor folks? Oh o, they are once again out of luck. They should borrow? I thought policies of the 1960s would have alleviated poverty. So all the people poor now are a result of President Bush last eight years? So a lot of black people are poor because of Bush?

What I mean by that is that it is not the economies job to provide for me. Sure my wallets a little thinner, but at the end of the day what little blame for that, that legitametly falls on somehow else doesn't help me any. Ultimately my financial position is my choice.

CEO’s, VP’s, Directors, IRS Agents, Government employees, engineers, archetechs, nurses, IT Professionals, salespeople, teachers, bus drivers, plumbers, factory workers. It’s everyone’s fault? Too many people have been affected by Bushanomics for you to say it’s our fault.

The Big 3 were fucked when the south let foreign car companies in. That might not be such a big deal, but those countries won’t let us sell American cars to their citizens. Read my previous post. Founding fathers/former presidents warned us about what the GOP did for the last 8 years.

Thank god your party lost. Otherwise you mind find that your husband isn’t worth shit. You think he’s worth what they pay him now but eventually they’ll come for his wages too. And there won’t be any one left to complain to.

How did Bush put people into poverty? When Bush/The GOP started sending jobs overseas and allowed illegals to flood into the country so to lower our wages. More people than jobs equals lowered wages.

Explaining to you is futile. Why do I bother? I don’t know.

If taxes go up, then SHUT THE HELL UP! I got it. You took Econ 101. There is so much you don’t get that it’s starting to bug me. Lol.

It's isn't a threat. it was a question. what is it 'we' are protecting you from taking that will ultimately hurt us?

If you leave America, then you can’t sell in America. Read my previous post. I quoted Lincoln, a REPUBLICAN. That was before the party was taken over by insane idiots.

It shouldn’t be ok with you that the government is taking rights away just because you don’t break any laws. That’s the lamest/oldest/dumbest argument. I want my privacy, even if I’m not breaking any laws.
 
Last edited:
I think the point of the article is to point out that it was born of what was liberal thinking at the time. Any similarities to the liberal movement of today, by design or by luck are just that: similarities.... then again, one can't deny that in spite of the differences, there are still similarities.

Same can be said of conservative thinking then and now.

Also of note: Some conservative ideas then are liberal now, and visa versa.

-Joe

Yep. No question about it. The only problem I have is when people use dictionary definitions of 'liberal' and 'conservative' and somehow think that's what the two major parties stand for. I get this all the time.
 
In a sense, the OP is correct. But once the nation was born and the constitution was signed, that new policy became the status quo and from there on out, adhering to it was conservatism.

These kinds of discussions are pointless, though. So much time is WASTED bitching about what is conservative and what is liberal, especially from a time that long ago.
 
Directly? very little. yes i get the argument; 'well how would you get to work without the tax dollars I paid for. To make the leap however that, that make me dependant on you for my livlihood is, well, quite the leap. I'm not anymore dependant on you for said road than I am myself seeing as how we both contributed to them.



This rests on a faulty premise as well and while it may seem simple it is major sociological reason people are way they are. It is entirely about behavior. The faulty premise is that if they teach it, you will learn it. Now we both went to school and probably grew up with the same types of people. The troublmakers, the stoners, the kids that just plain didn't care, the pregnanat teen. Just because a skill set is taught doesn't mean it will be learned. That comes down to the inidividual.



To an extent yes a level of dependance does exist. The issue I have is that our culture has crossed the point where we viewd that as a nice side benefit to an expectaton of it. As example the society benefits from business production and growth. Large businessess provide a standard of living for large numbers of people, so yes we can say we are dependant on the many people that keep that business running. But people like bobo have crossed a line where they feel they have the right to expect that business provide them a certain standard of living, garuntee x amount of jobs, and provide x benefits, rather than then allowing the business to conduct itself as an actual business.

I have pleaded with many on this board to change their perspective on this issue from white the right or left has done to people or what the haves have done to the have nots to arrive us at the point where we are now. It is so obvious to me that this has very little to do with the policies of one party or another or the economic system we live. I believe it is largerly a result of a cultural change in atitudes and behaviors. The main reason for this is, I was taught and it turns out to be true, that broadly there are two ways to actually achieve something you aspire to attain, be or do. A) you can become dependeant, that is wait for the system to adjust to what you want and hope it gives it to you or B) be proactive and clear the obstacles yourself. Which do you think is more productive and better for the growth of the individual.

Why are there so many have nots vs. haves? It isn't about policies or what someone is doing to someone else. It's about what people do to themselves and our change in atitude. If it continues through generations as it appears to be doing we are fucked. I know how lucky I am to have the parents I had vs. the way society seems to be going. Want an example, look no further than asanine shows like My Super Sweet Sixteen.

Culturally we have moved from survivor behavior to one in which with not an awfil lot of effort you will probably get by. And there's your answer right there as to why this divide is growing and becoming lopsided. Good enough is simply good enough for an awful lot of people and they dont' even realize that subconciously it's a choice they've made. Think about it. If you took a thousand people and laid two paths in front of them. On the left is one with difficult nearly impassable terrain with many pitfalls, but at the end is a mansion luxury car, etc. On the right is nice easy stroll through a meadow at the end of which is a quaint, servicable 3 bedroom rambler home with a Buick in the driveway. The majority of the people are going right. That's how becoming wealthy is and making the choices that insulate you from times like these is. It's just plain hard and the because of this shift away from simply survival to convience most people simply pick easy.

You are right... at least in your thesis that taking responsibility for oneself is better than being fed. Encouraging each other to be personally responsible is in the best interest of society.

I'm going to call bullshit on your premise of the hard path and the soft path, though. Life is not that black and white. People don't simply have choices between a mansion and a house, dependent only on willingness to work. The fact is the more money your family has, the more choices you have in life. Certainly there are stories of success from nothing and we cheer for them... because they're an exception to the rule.

Your experiment also fails to account for the people who find greater personal happiness in a stroll through a meadow to a Buick rather than busting their ass for a Mercedes.

-Joe
 
You are right... at least in your thesis that taking responsibility for oneself is better than being fed. Encouraging each other to be personally responsible is in the best interest of society.

Now back to politics since we agree on that. That is why we need leaders that enact policies that encourage respoonsible behavior. Not someone for bailouts, which is yes both parties are guilty of. And not someone who thinks it's in the best interest to tax the rich to pay for the poor. Which essentially what he has propossed. To offset the tax breaks he is proposing for the middle class and poor he will raise taxes on the rich.

I'm going to call bullshit on your premise of the hard path and the soft path, though. Life is not that black and white. People don't simply have choices between a mansion and a house, dependent only on willingness to work. The fact is the more money your family has, the more choices you have in life. Certainly there are stories of success from nothing and we cheer for them... because they're an exception to the rule.

Partially true. Everyone will start out at different points. Some will have to work harder than others to get through the path. Regardless of teh difficulty the success of actually reaching the end rests solely on the individual. Your are false in thinking the most of the rich are the product of rich parents, however. Statistically that is inaccurate. Read the Millionaire Next Door which has a bevy of statisitcs compiled from study conducted about the rich. Approx. 80 percent of millionaires are first generation wealthy. That is 80% did NOT come from millioniare parents. What I have found in reading several books about wealth accumulation is that most of the wealthy posses specific behavior sets. The are incredibly motivated, exteremly frugal and do the basics as well such simple things like merely keeping a budget.

Your experiment also fails to account for the people who find greater personal happiness in a stroll through a meadow to a Buick rather than busting their ass for a Mercedes.

-Joe

No it doesn't as that is a choice as well. I actually did state that good enough is generally good enough for a lot of people. Some people choose it conciously. However, many may be disappointed in where they are simply don't realize they have reached the culimanation of many choices. We live in the present as a society and rarely see into the future the far reaching consequences. Some down are their luck single mother of two doesn't see how the choice to have a kid 16 drastically changed her ability to accumulate wealth at 40. It is like that for so many people. And i'm not just talking about haveing a kid before your ready, though that certainly is a good way to dig yourself a nice deep hole. But just simple, spontaneous choices that we don't see the repurcussions of.

That's a lot to say but the simplest way to define the difference between us the way in which we view reasons people arrive at x point in their lives. People like you and sealy take stock of all external reasons FIRST and give cursory credance intrinsic reasons second. I look at the intrinsic FIRST. What is my role in where I am is the first question. And even then many people can't answer the question honestly. I look at things that way because it is wasted effort to focus on the extrinsic, even when legitimate. First extrinsic variables rarely bend to you, and second it is so wasted when the solution to your problem is within your control.
 
Last edited:
Now back to politics since we agree on that. That is why we need leaders that enact policies that encourage respoonsible behavior. Not someone for bailouts, which is yes both parties are guilty of. And not someone who thinks it's in the best interest to tax the rich to pay for the poor. Which essentially what he has propossed. To offset the tax breaks he is proposing for the middle class and poor he will raise taxes on the rich.

Assuming by 'he' you mean Obama, I feel just as strongly that he is not proposing a new tax on the rich, but attempting to reinstate taxes that were removed by the Bush administration and its lap-dog congress that made taxes in America patently unfair to the middle class.

People who are blessed should kick in a larger total for the infrastructure - without it they wouldn't be worth near as much, with a better infrastructure they might make even more. Does the 'infrastructure' include healthcare? Does the 'infrastructure' include welfare? For some, yes; for others no... Should we vote, or do we trust our representatives to represent our interests for us? These are the questions of political debate.



Partially true. Everyone will start out at different points. Some will have to work harder than others to get through the path. Regardless of teh difficulty the success of actually reaching the end rests solely on the individual. Your are false in thinking the most of the rich are the product of rich parents, however. Statistically that is inaccurate. Read the Millionaire Next Door which has a bevy of statisitcs compiled from study conducted about the rich. Approx. 80 percent of millionaires are first generation wealthy. That is 80% did NOT come from millioniare parents. What I have found in reading several books about wealth accumulation is that most of the wealthy posses specific behavior sets. The are incredibly motivated, exteremly frugal and do the basics as well such simple things like merely keeping a budget.

It doesn't take a millionaire to raise and launch a millionaire lifestyle, that's true... but money for college helps. Money for one or both parents to have the leisure time for involvement in the kids life doesn't hurt. Affording an attorney during the teenage years helps to maintain raw numbers of choices in a youngsters life.



No it doesn't as that is a choice as well. I actually did state that good enough is generally good enough for a lot of people. Some people choose it conciously. However, many may be disappointed in where they are simply don't realize they have reached the culimanation of many choices. We live in the present as a society and rarely see into the future the far reaching consequences. Some down are their luck single mother of two doesn't see how the choice to have a kid 16 drastically changed her ability to accumulate wealth at 40. It is like that for so many people. And i'm not just talking about haveing a kid before your ready, though that certainly is a good way to dig yourself a nice deep hole. But just simple, spontaneous choices that we don't see the repurcussions of.

That's a lot to say but the simplest way to define the difference between us the way in which we view reasons people arrive at x point in their lives. People like you and sealy take stock of all external reasons FIRST and give cursory credance intrinsic reasons second. I look at the intrinsic FIRST. What is my role in where I am is the first question. And even then many people can't answer the question honestly. I look at things that way because it is wasted effort to focus on the extrinsic, even when legitimate. First extrinsic variables rarely bend to you, and second it is so wasted when the solution to your problem is within your control.

Dude, all I'm trying to say is having money in America makes it easier to make money in America... and the more money someone has the more choices you so fondly speak of they and their kids have.

If having money in this country is of no or little advantage in the game of life, why do lottery tickets sell?

-Joe
 
"The United States, as the political scientist Louis Hartz argued in the 1950s, was born liberal. We fought for our independence against Great Britain and the conservatism that flourished there. In Europe, a conservative was someone who defended the traditions of the monarchy, justified the privileges of the nobility, and welcomed the intervention of a state-affiliated clergy in politics. But all those things would be tossed out by the revolutionaries who led the war for independence and then wrote the Constitution. We chose to have an elected president, not an anointed monarch. Our Constitution prohibited the granting of titles of nobility. We separated church and state."

Quote from: "Why Conservatives Can't Govern" by Alan Wolfe (Emphasis mine)

The quote in context makes logical sense to me... Elite power base, Church influence in politics, Wealth to the wealthy - almost makes one wish we had another new world to conquer in order to establish yet another more perfect union...

-Joe

A misnomer. An intellectually dishonest attempt to sell today's liberals as having a connection with the founders of this nation.

First off, this nation was founded by the wealthy elitists of their day because they didn't want to pay their taxes and they sold it to the commoners as some grand and glorious independence thing because they needed them to do the fighting.

Second, I'm quite sure the Founding Fathers would be appalled at being compared to today's liberals. Liberal then was more conservative than far-rightwingers are now.
 
i'm not certain being fiscally conservative or fiscally liberal really had anything to do with liberalism or conservativism....as it is today....

Liberals were ones that rebelled against gvt control....they believed in freedom of the individual with limited gvt.

Conservatives were ones that felt comfortable enough, with the status quo....
imo
 
"The United States, as the political scientist Louis Hartz argued in the 1950s, was born liberal. We fought for our independence against Great Britain and the conservatism that flourished there. In Europe, a conservative was someone who defended the traditions of the monarchy, justified the privileges of the nobility, and welcomed the intervention of a state-affiliated clergy in politics. But all those things would be tossed out by the revolutionaries who led the war for independence and then wrote the Constitution. We chose to have an elected president, not an anointed monarch. Our Constitution prohibited the granting of titles of nobility. We separated church and state."

Quote from: "Why Conservatives Can't Govern" by Alan Wolfe (Emphasis mine)

The quote in context makes logical sense to me... Elite power base, Church influence in politics, Wealth to the wealthy - almost makes one wish we had another new world to conquer in order to establish yet another more perfect union...

-Joe

I love it when liberals try to pretend that the founders were actually raving social and political liberals in disguise -but have to do it by trying to redefine all sorts of words from the commonly understood definitions. Because the Constitution and Federalist Papers sure prove that his fake definition is a lie. Oh gee, this guy has redefined "conservative" to suit himself and not only pretends it is a word that was actually USED in those days, but that it meant something BAD because he SAID his new definition of the word means it was someone who favored staying under the rule of England. ROFLMAO.

I guess its just too bad for him that "conservative" with regard to favoring or opposing independence wasn't used at all in those days, isn't it? They were only called "patriots" and "loyalists". Not "conservatives". A political conservative didn't come about for quite a while after independence and only referred to sticking with the Constitution or trying to bastardize it into another imitation of an historically known failure of a system. Oh well, let's just re-write history, redefine words to suit ourselves and PRETEND that is what a conservative was anyway. It so much better suits his agenda to do so. And hey, unless we all agree to accept his new bizarre definition, the rest of the article goes nowhere anyway.

This guy is INTENTIONALLY being DECEPTIVE by not only pretending HIS own made-up definition of what is meant by "conservative" actually applied to the time of independence when it did not - but because he chooses to define it as HE sees fit and in complete contradiction of what the word meant when it first came into use with regard to a politician or political party -we must all unquestioningly accept this bizarre definition from now on. If his new definition means it is a bad thing to be a conservative then -then surely people will agree it must be a bad thing to be a conservative now.

Too bad for the author of this article, but I have also read Marx and what he had to say about how to manipulate, distort and redefine words in order to re-write and re-define history in order to suit their political agenda and further their movement. The guy did everything Marx said to do -and now its just a matter of how many idiots are out there willing to swallow this bullshit unquestioningly.

Sorry to disillusion this author when he is SO desperate to redefine all sorts of words hoping to deceive readers by doing so -but the founders, if alive today -would not only NEVER be liberals, they would spit on what liberalism actually stands for.

Now if the author wants to argue that today's conservatives are also today's "loyalists" who are in support of Americans being ruled by our government under the terms set out by our Constitution while today's liberals oppose it and would rather have an entirely different system of government and not THIS Constitution -I might actually buy into that one. Except there is no way to pretend that the people who want the Constitution tossed out are actually "patriots", is there? But there is arguably a much stronger foundation for that proposition than his ridiculous claim that during the American Revolution those who opposed independence weren't really called "loyalists" but were actually political "conservatives" -even though the term first came into use with regard to adherence to the Constitution versus those who wanted to deviate from it.
 
  • Thanks
Reactions: CSM
A misnomer. An intellectually dishonest attempt to sell today's liberals as having a connection with the founders of this nation.

First off, this nation was founded by the wealthy elitists of their day because they didn't want to pay their taxes and they sold it to the commoners as some grand and glorious independence thing because they needed them to do the fighting.

Second, I'm quite sure the Founding Fathers would be appalled at being compared to today's liberals. Liberal then was more conservative than far-rightwingers are now.

I was more interested in discussing what was considered 'liberal' and what was considered 'conservative' as the 18th century gave way to the 19th on this planet. Especially when viewed through the filter of today's definitions and labels.

-Joe
 
Assuming by 'he' you mean Obama, I feel just as strongly that he is not proposing a new tax on the rich, but attempting to reinstate taxes that were removed by the Bush administration and its lap-dog congress that made taxes in America patently unfair to the middle class.

Call it whatever you want. If the Bush tax cuts are repealed, everyone's taxes go up. And I fail to see how the tax cuts were unfair to the middle class when they got the largest percentage break of all the tax brackets. Please explain. On top of that what Obama should be doing is figuring out how to lower EVERYONE'S taxes via curbing of government spending.

People who are blessed should kick in a larger total for the infrastructure - without it they wouldn't be worth near as much, with a better infrastructure they might make even more. Does the 'infrastructure' include healthcare? Does the 'infrastructure' include welfare? For some, yes; for others no... Should we vote, or do we trust our representatives to represent our interests for us? These are the questions of political debate.

The rich already do 'kick in' a larger amount per capita for things like roads. In our state roads are paid for via gas taxes, license tabs, and now property taxes. If you are right in your summation that the rich use more of our roads through conducting business they therefore must be contributing more than the average poor person driving a yugo in terms of the gas tax. License tabs are based on a pecentage of the vehicles MSRP, which for the rich is generally going to be more than the poor because they drive more expensive cars. And of course they are paying more toward it in propoerty taxes as their value is going to be more than that of a poor person.

But you think they should kick in even more just because they are blessed? What should government be doing? Running a personal history on everybody to see who grew up 'luckier' than who and taxing that way?

It doesn't take a millionaire to raise and launch a millionaire lifestyle, that's true... but money for college helps. Money for one or both parents to have the leisure time for involvement in the kids life doesn't hurt. Affording an attorney during the teenage years helps to maintain raw numbers of choices in a youngsters life.

No argument there. Parents are a huge part of a person's success. Why do you think I believe what I believe? Again I am grateful for the life lessons my parents taught me. As boring as my dad's lectures about these things were at the time, I'm thankful it made sure I didn't grow up with a mindset like some who apparently believe not only do they have little control over their destiny, but because of that belief, believe they have the right to expect things from others.

However, there is plenty of evidence that good or bad parents don't predestine people either as their are plenty of success stories of people who come from truly awful backgrounds. There are also plenty of people that had wealthy parents that dont' become wealthy themselves. This is why I say this is such a cultural thing and has been trickling down through the generations.

Dude, all I'm trying to say is having money in America makes it easier to make money in America... and the more money someone has the more choices you so fondly speak of they and their kids have.

If having money in this country is of no or little advantage in the game of life, why do lottery tickets sell?

-Joe

the question is mute on many fronts. First I never said haveing money wasn't an advantage. I think I fairly clearly stated that individuals start out with widely varying circumstances. But don't try to sell me on this bullshit notion that lottery ticket buyers have the grand scheme of life in mind when they buy them. They sell for exactly the reason i stated; Spending a buck for the extremely slim chance at a couple hundred milliion is still far easier than putting in the work it would take to earn it. THAT is why lottery tickets sell.

Yes, havieng money makes it easier to make money in terms of the options it gives you. We know that many have little money and thus not as many resources or opportunities. The solution I'm hearing to that from money here is that we should simply give people money and things will I guess turn out just wonderful for everyone. That doesn't do any favor to the individual or society as a whole. it teaches that effort is not required to attain a goal. I have no problem with showing peolpe the path so to speak, but it will much more beneficial to the individual and to society as a whole to make the individual walk it.
 
Last edited:
no. lottery tickets are sold to MANY in the middle class that are working their proverbial "balls off" and they see LOTTO as the only means in which they may even have a CHANCE of obtaining wealth........

at least in my opinion, and looking back on the days when the hubby and I were first married, both working like dogs in the iditerod, LOTTO was the only hope we saw at that point in our lives, to ever having extra money.

Now granted, as we continued to work like dogs to only make ends meet, i got a lucky break and things changed for the two of us....

But when we were young and just starting out in our careers, it was hard to see what the future had in store for us....or brighter skies, thus LOTTO was our chance.

or so we thought in our measly minds at the time! hahahahahaha! oh! to be young again! NOT! i'm happy with the wisdom that comes with the wrinkles, trying to defy gravity, and old age!
 
There is no question America was founded on the liberalism born of the enlightenment, but conservatives today define things in terms only they believe. Their echo chamber has influenced and educated many in a kind of warped ideological world that only makes sense through opposition to things humanitarian. They'd made themselves social darwinists and religious ideologues and as such they operate outside of America's core values of freedom and concern for all people.
 
There is no question America was founded on the liberalism born of the enlightenment, but conservatives today define things in terms only they believe. Their echo chamber has influenced and educated many in a kind of warped ideological world that only makes sense through opposition to things humanitarian. They'd made themselves social darwinists and religious ideologues and as such they operate outside of America's core values of freedom and concern for all people.

I'm surprised you wrote this paragraph with the word freedom in it because you obviously don't understand that word.

You aren't willing to accept the downside of the concept of freedom. Freedom doesn't only mean the opportunity to succeed it also means there is the risk of failure. Freedom means you are dependant on yourself. If government is providing everything to you than you aren't free. If government is mandating that rich people must give money to their fellow poorer man, than we are not free. You want all of the good and believe all the bad should be mandated away, but don't realize you are mandating actual freedom away. So you can cut the bullshit about how much you believe in your faux ideals of freedom.
 
Directly? very little. yes i get the argument; 'well how would you get to work without the tax dollars I paid for. To make the leap however that, that make me dependant on you for my livlihood is, well, quite the leap. I'm not anymore dependant on you for said road than I am myself seeing as how we both contributed to them.
...

No implication at all intended that you are dependent on me or I am dependent on you for our livelihood. We, are dependent on each other. Big difference.

Face it... if the organization called "We The People" hadn't been busy coordinating with private interests to construct the infrastructure we call The United States over the last 230 years, you and I would be making our livings very differently.

Even a different infrastructure would make life different. What if the world had started out with 3 times the number of whales than it did and ground oil had remained but a dirty nuisance for another 100 years? Would life be different if alternate choices had been forced on industry earlier in history?

-Joe
 
We are social beings.

As society goes so too goes most of our individual fates.

I hear some of you rugged individualist out there thinking I'm overstating the case.

Tell me, rugged individuals, how well has all your will and ambition and hard work prevented your real estate from losing value this year?

We hang together or we hang separately, folks.

Simple as that.
 

Forum List

Back
Top