The U.S. Constitution

[Foxfyre]

Our society today offers more freedom than at any time in history

The only ones complaining about a loss of freedom is from those who could formerly deny it to others

A tyranny of political correctness is not freedom. A tyranny of those who get or hope to get free things at the expense of others is not freedom. A government that runs up our mutual debt to 16 trillion dollars for no better reason than it can increase the power, prestige, influenvce, and personal fortunes of those in government by doing so is not freedom. The old saw that a government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have is quite relevant. But such a government does not provide freedom.

I grew up at a time when girls were restricted to what jobs they could aspire to. Teacher, nurse, secretary, beautician......take your pick girls

Our society is more open, opportunities are open to everyone, there is less pigeonholing based on race, religion, sex and nationality

We have never seen more freedom

I'm probably at least as old as you are and I was born a girl and I have never been discouraged from aspiring to any job nor have I been denied a job because I was a woman. But even if I was, you are speaking of cultural norms and not a restriction of freedom imposed by the federal government. But within that same culture, I am far more likely to be condemned or even financially assaulted should I speak something politically incorrect re another race or ethnicity or sexual orientation or socioeconomic class. But the government can force me to hire somebody I don't want to hire, can force me to provide medical insurance for my employees whether I want to do that or not. And in many cases, I do not have the option of whether to subsidize certain groups as the government has full authority to take anything it wants from me and give what I earn to anybody else.

That is not freedom.

 

[Foxfyre]

Note that only 15 of 27 members checked Option #1 in the poll. That suggests that many here might not be feeling so free.

 

[Polk]

Hey Polk, we get it. You're a Progressive. You like a large, powerful federal government. You clearly cannot understand or appreciate the necessity of limiting government power in order to keep tyranny at bay. You're not alone in that regard, unfortunately.

All the best.

Why not address the actual topic instead of insulting other people's intelligence?

That would require an intelligent person...or at least someone open minded enough to consider thinking for themselves.

All the best

We were having a pretty intelligent convo in this thread before you decided to start trolling.

 

[rightwinger]

A tyranny of political correctness is not freedom. A tyranny of those who get or hope to get free things at the expense of others is not freedom. A government that runs up our mutual debt to 16 trillion dollars for no better reason than it can increase the power, prestige, influenvce, and personal fortunes of those in government by doing so is not freedom. The old saw that a government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have is quite relevant. But such a government does not provide freedom.

I grew up at a time when girls were restricted to what jobs they could aspire to. Teacher, nurse, secretary, beautician......take your pick girls

Our society is more open, opportunities are open to everyone, there is less pigeonholing based on race, religion, sex and nationality

We have never seen more freedom

I'm probably at least as old as you are and I was born a girl and I have never been discouraged from aspiring to any job nor have I been denied a job because I was a woman. But even if I was, you are speaking of cultural norms and not a restriction of freedom imposed by the federal government. But within that same culture, I am far more likely to be condemned or even financially assaulted should I speak something politically incorrect re another race or ethnicity or sexual orientation or socioeconomic class. But the government can force me to hire somebody I don't want to hire, can force me to provide medical insurance for my employees whether I want to do that or not. And in many cases, I do not have the option of whether to subsidize certain groups as the government has full authority to take anything it wants from me and give what I earn to anybody else.

That is not freedom.

If you are as old as I, you would remember that "tyrannical" government forcing equal opportunities for women through affirmative action, educational incentives, anti- discrimination laws.
You would also remember the sexual harassment that was blatant in the workplace....put out or get out

Yes, those good ole days you aspire to sure were free......you were free to discriminate or abuse anyone you want

 

[Foxfyre]

I grew up at a time when girls were restricted to what jobs they could aspire to. Teacher, nurse, secretary, beautician......take your pick girls

Our society is more open, opportunities are open to everyone, there is less pigeonholing based on race, religion, sex and nationality

We have never seen more freedom

I'm probably at least as old as you are and I was born a girl and I have never been discouraged from aspiring to any job nor have I been denied a job because I was a woman. But even if I was, you are speaking of cultural norms and not a restriction of freedom imposed by the federal government. But within that same culture, I am far more likely to be condemned or even financially assaulted should I speak something politically incorrect re another race or ethnicity or sexual orientation or socioeconomic class. But the government can force me to hire somebody I don't want to hire, can force me to provide medical insurance for my employees whether I want to do that or not. And in many cases, I do not have the option of whether to subsidize certain groups as the government has full authority to take anything it wants from me and give what I earn to anybody else.

That is not freedom.

If you are as old as I, you would remember that "tyrannical" government forcing equal opportunities for women through affirmative action, educational incentives, anti- discrimination laws.
You would also remember the sexual harassment that was blatant in the workplace....put out or get out

Yes, those good ole days you aspire to sure were free......you were free to discriminate or abuse anyone you want

Yep. And as an employer, member of the Rotary, and heavily invested in all aspects of my community in those days, I witnessed some good and a lot of bad coming out of those programs. But those wars were won long ago, and had they been fought and won at the state level, they would have been far less costly and done far less damage than coming from the one-size-fits all doctrines from the federal level. But that is also a topic better suited to its own thread. Give me time and I'll get to it if nobody else does.

We may have deep philosophical differences in what we believe the government should be. But as a designer of culture and society, the Founders never intended for the federal government to have any power there. Just as they saw the huge opportunity for corruption both at the federal level and among the recipients of government largesse, they knew the people must be left free to form whatever sort of society they wished to have. A government given power to dictate good has equal power to dictate evil.

 

[rightwinger]

I'm probably at least as old as you are and I was born a girl and I have never been discouraged from aspiring to any job nor have I been denied a job because I was a woman. But even if I was, you are speaking of cultural norms and not a restriction of freedom imposed by the federal government. But within that same culture, I am far more likely to be condemned or even financially assaulted should I speak something politically incorrect re another race or ethnicity or sexual orientation or socioeconomic class. But the government can force me to hire somebody I don't want to hire, can force me to provide medical insurance for my employees whether I want to do that or not. And in many cases, I do not have the option of whether to subsidize certain groups as the government has full authority to take anything it wants from me and give what I earn to anybody else.

That is not freedom.

If you are as old as I, you would remember that "tyrannical" government forcing equal opportunities for women through affirmative action, educational incentives, anti- discrimination laws.
You would also remember the sexual harassment that was blatant in the workplace....put out or get out

Yes, those good ole days you aspire to sure were free......you were free to discriminate or abuse anyone you want

Yep. And as an employer, member of the Rotary, and heavily invested in all aspects of my community in those days, I witnessed some good and a lot of bad coming out of those programs. But those wars were won long ago, and had they been fought and won at the state level, they would have been far less costly and done far less damage than coming from the one-size-fits all doctrines from the federal level. But that is also a topic better suited to its own thread. Give me time and I'll get to it if nobody else does.

We may have deep philosophical differences in what we believe the government should be. But as a designer of culture and society, the Founders never intended for the federal government to have any power there. Just as they saw the huge opportunity for corruption both at the federal level and among the recipients of government largesse, they knew the people must be left free to form whatever sort of society they wished to have. A government given power to dictate good has equal power to dictate evil.

Fought and won at the state level?

It was the states enforcing he discrimination

Did you miss the 60s entirely?

 

[Foxfyre]

If you are as old as I, you would remember that "tyrannical" government forcing equal opportunities for women through affirmative action, educational incentives, anti- discrimination laws.
You would also remember the sexual harassment that was blatant in the workplace....put out or get out

Yes, those good ole days you aspire to sure were free......you were free to discriminate or abuse anyone you want

Yep. And as an employer, member of the Rotary, and heavily invested in all aspects of my community in those days, I witnessed some good and a lot of bad coming out of those programs. But those wars were won long ago, and had they been fought and won at the state level, they would have been far less costly and done far less damage than coming from the one-size-fits all doctrines from the federal level. But that is also a topic better suited to its own thread. Give me time and I'll get to it if nobody else does.

We may have deep philosophical differences in what we believe the government should be. But as a designer of culture and society, the Founders never intended for the federal government to have any power there. Just as they saw the huge opportunity for corruption both at the federal level and among the recipients of government largesse, they knew the people must be left free to form whatever sort of society they wished to have. A government given power to dictate good has equal power to dictate evil.

Fought and won at the state level?

It was the states enforcing he discrimination

Did you miss the 60s entirely?

Nope. I was there. And I stand by my opinion. I accept that you disagree with it.

 

[rightwinger]

Our society today has a better appreciation of the Constitution than t any time in history. If you want to talk government tyranny, look at our society of the Pre 50s and 60s. It was a time conservatives look at as the golden age...when you were free to discriminate as you please
You even had a government who would enforce your hatred for you

 

[rightwinger]

Just one year ago, if you were homosexual you would be kicked out of the service if you let anyone know. In almost every state, you were prevented from marrying the person you loved

We are much more free today than at any other time

 

[eflatminor]

Why not address the actual topic instead of insulting other people's intelligence?

That would require an intelligent person...or at least someone open minded enough to consider thinking for themselves.

All the best

We were having a pretty intelligent convo in this thread before you decided to start trolling.

Yea, I apologize for that. Wasn't called for. No excuse, but I'm having a bad day. Sorry.

 

[Foxfyre]

Everybody has a bad day eflat, and it takes a big person to admit it. It's also easy for us to forget we are in what I call the Civil Discussion Zone---I wish, I wish, I wish that Admin would change the name to that. But I think we're having a mostly decent discussion on this topic and I hope it keeps going. Just judging the results of the straw poll so far, it is obvious that many of us think all is not well, and constitutional issues are seriously in need of attention by freedom loving people.

 

[Polk]

Everybody has a bad day eflat, and it takes a big person to admit it. It's also easy for us to forget we are in what I call the Civil Discussion Zone---I wish, I wish, I wish that Admin would change the name to that. But I think we're having a mostly decent discussion on this topic and I hope it keeps going. Just judging the results of the straw poll so far, it is obvious that many of us think all is not well, and constitutional issues are seriously in need of attention by freedom loving people.

Agreed. In fact, wanted to give eflat rep for manning up (kinda hate that expression, but it is what it is), but I've give it to him too recently for something else.

 

[PaulS1950]

Freer today?
Obama signed a presidential order that makes it a felony to disagree with him or his policies within earshot of the secret service. (violation of the first amendment)
We have the TSA performing unlawful searches of persons and belongings at the airport. There is no warrant and no justification for treating every person as a suspected terrorist. (violation of the fourth amendment)
The federal government listens in on every conversation, filters every email, and any communication that travels the phone lines in America for keywords that may point to terrorism. words like representative, Obama, bill of rights and a host of other words that we use in our daily lives. (another violation of the fourth amendment.
All the restrictions on guns and ammo purchases, banning certain weapons because they are semi-automatic and hold more than ten rounds of ammunition and "look like" a threatening weapon. (violations of the second amendment)

Artists have been put in jail for their art describing news stories about our representatives. (violation of the first amendment)

It has been proven over and over that our politicians represent themselves and not those who elected them - the "congrssional gym and health center" - paid for with tax dollars, The use of aircraft by the Palosey fitted with booze and food for her and her family for over a year costing the tax payers millions.

The anti-federalists were right, a central government cannot be trusted to protect the rights of the people. They have a lavish retirment system that comes out of our taxes. We have a failing Social Security system that the funds have been stolen from time and time again. They are too busy getting what the can while they are in office to worry about protecting the rights of the people. They don't represent us. They merely take advantage of those who elect them.

Abraham Lincoln disregarded the constitution so he could fight a war because he didn't want the union to break up. Nowhere in the constitution does it give the federal government the power to force a state to remain a state but he wanted to keep the union together so he declared war without the proper consent of congress.

FDR took on a "temporary" presidential powers act to bring the country (artificially) out of a depression. The "presidential powers act" gives dictatorship powers to the president. A presidential order is as enforcible as any law passed by the house and senate and signed by the president. There are tens of thousands of these "presidential orders" on the books because every president since FDR has signed a document that states "a state of emergency exists in the USA" thus envoking the presidential powers act. It is the first thing a new president does when he is sworn in.

Yep, the constitution is just fine. (its back there in the corner where it doesn't get in the way)
We all know that we are freer today than ever before. (because they tell us so)
The economy is bit slow right now because people have lost faith. (yep, and until the national debt is paid off there can be no faith - 13.x TRILLION dollars with 3 TRILLION more added this October to keep our government running so they can protect our rights and freedoms)
We used to be the richest, most educated, country in the world but now we are so far down on the list that we compete with third world countries instead of the top countries in the world.

WAKE UP! America is falling apart. Stand up and take it back.

 

[rightwinger]

Freer today?
Obama signed a presidential order that makes it a felony to disagree with him or his policies within earshot of the secret service. (violation of the first amendment)
We have the TSA performing unlawful searches of persons and belongings at the airport. There is no warrant and no justification for treating every person as a suspected terrorist. (violation of the fourth amendment)
The federal government listens in on every conversation, filters every email, and any communication that travels the phone lines in America for keywords that may point to terrorism. words like representative, Obama, bill of rights and a host of other words that we use in our daily lives. (another violation of the fourth amendment.
All the restrictions on guns and ammo purchases, banning certain weapons because they are semi-automatic and hold more than ten rounds of ammunition and "look like" a threatening weapon. (violations of the second amendment)

Artists have been put in jail for their art describing news stories about our representatives. (violation of the first amendment)

It has been proven over and over that our politicians represent themselves and not those who elected them - the "congrssional gym and health center" - paid for with tax dollars, The use of aircraft by the Palosey fitted with booze and food for her and her family for over a year costing the tax payers millions.

The anti-federalists were right, a central government cannot be trusted to protect the rights of the people. They have a lavish retirment system that comes out of our taxes. We have a failing Social Security system that the funds have been stolen from time and time again. They are too busy getting what the can while they are in office to worry about protecting the rights of the people. They don't represent us. They merely take advantage of those who elect them.

Abraham Lincoln disregarded the constitution so he could fight a war because he didn't want the union to break up. Nowhere in the constitution does it give the federal government the power to force a state to remain a state but he wanted to keep the union together so he declared war without the proper consent of congress.

FDR took on a "temporary" presidential powers act to bring the country (artificially) out of a depression. The "presidential powers act" gives dictatorship powers to the president. A presidential order is as enforcible as any law passed by the house and senate and signed by the president. There are tens of thousands of these "presidential orders" on the books because every president since FDR has signed a document that states "a state of emergency exists in the USA" thus envoking the presidential powers act. It is the first thing a new president does when he is sworn in.

Yep, the constitution is just fine. (its back there in the corner where it doesn't get in the way)
We all know that we are freer today than ever before. (because they tell us so)
The economy is bit slow right now because people have lost faith. (yep, and until the national debt is paid off there can be no faith - 13.x TRILLION dollars with 3 TRILLION more added this October to keep our government running so they can protect our rights and freedoms)
We used to be the richest, most educated, country in the world but now we are so far down on the list that we compete with third world countries instead of the top countries in the world.

WAKE UP! America is falling apart. Stand up and take it back.

Damn...is this a great country or what?

XXXXXXX

Response to edit: Partisan Moderator misconduct

 

[Intense]

Our society today has a better appreciation of the Constitution than t any time in history. If you want to talk government tyranny, look at our society of the Pre 50s and 60s. It was a time conservatives look at as the golden age...when you were free to discriminate as you please
You even had a government who would enforce your hatred for you

Only when one looses the ability to distinguish between Right and wrong, good and evil. There is no time like the present, to put conscience first. It was true Yesterday, it will remain true Tomorrow. Can you define Conservatism? Can you define Tyranny? Can you define Statist Progressivism? Our Society today is lost in the woods, when it comes to defining moral values.

 

[rightwinger]

Our society today has a better appreciation of the Constitution than t any time in history. If you want to talk government tyranny, look at our society of the Pre 50s and 60s. It was a time conservatives look at as the golden age...when you were free to discriminate as you please
You even had a government who would enforce your hatred for you

Only when one looses the ability to distinguish between Right and wrong, good and evil. There is no time like the present, to put conscience first. It was true Yesterday, it will remain true Tomorrow. Can you define Conservatism? Can you define Tyranny? Can you define Statist Progressivism? Our Society today is lost in the woods, when it comes to defining moral values.

If I respond...will you use your moderator position to edit my response?

 

[Full-Auto]

Our society today has a better appreciation of the Constitution than t any time in history. If you want to talk government tyranny, look at our society of the Pre 50s and 60s. It was a time conservatives look at as the golden age...when you were free to discriminate as you please
You even had a government who would enforce your hatred for you

Only when one looses the ability to distinguish between Right and wrong, good and evil. There is no time like the present, to put conscience first. It was true Yesterday, it will remain true Tomorrow. Can you define Conservatism? Can you define Tyranny? Can you define Statist Progressivism? Our Society today is lost in the woods, when it comes to defining moral values.

If I respond...will you use your moderator position to edit my response?

You know damn well he wont.....I tuned in to apologize for my actions last week, but never mind...................

 

[Foxfyre]

Cool it guys. The trolls already got one of my threads in the CDZ shut down this week. Please focus on the OP or it will likely happen to this one too. You either want a place to have a civil discussion or you don't. I really do. Please reread the sticky with the rules re the CDZ.

Meanwhile, to refocus on the topic, I am still interested in the results of the straw poll so far. All over the map. I am frustrated that so many seem to be unaware of the Founders' intent with the Constitution. But basically it really has come down to two things:

1. Those who agree with Teddy Roosevelt that the Constitution allows the federal government to do whatever it wants that isn't expressly forbidden by the Cosntitution.

2. Those who agree with the Founders that the Constitution allows the federal government to do only what is expressly allowed by the Consitution.

 

[PaulS1950]

1. It has produced the most free, prosperous, generous nation the world has known.
No, the free people did that. The constitution when followed just protected their rights to do so.

2. When implemented as the Founders intended, it allows for true human freedom.
While true it doesn't address the problem. Our political system and the people in it are corrupt.

3. It has been corrupted and must be repaired by honorable people.
The only way to repair it is to elliminate the cause of the corruption. Get rid of the representative portion. We don't need them. We can train ambassadors to represent us, we can control the military and we can vote for and against our own initiatives. What do we need a representative for?

7. It must be interpreted as the Founders intended in order to be relevent.
As long as we have people who can gain power and wealth by abusing the constitution we will never be able to use it as the founders intended.

9. All those in government must be held responsible to uphold the Constitution.
They take an oath "to protect and uphold" the constitution when they take office - they lie. We, the People and Citizens of the united States are responsible to uphold the constitution and protect our rights and freedoms. If that is impossible then it is time to try something new.

 

[regent]

Would Americans today, hopefully even conservaties, accept The Alien and Sedition Acts? Would we accept slavery, or even separate but equal at the drinking fountains or lunch counters. Just in my lifetime Blacks have been accepted in Pro baseball and football. Just in my lifetime a Catholic has been elected president, just in my lifetime fewer, if any, Americans are starving. As slow as it going it's going great.