The Red/Grey Chips Weren't Thermite After All

[Capstone]

I'm no expert here, but a couple of things from the MVA's "progress report" did pique my interest:

At the time of this progress report, the identity of the product from which the red/gray chips were generated has not been determined. The composition of the red/gray chips found in this study (epoxy resin with iron oxide and kaolin pigments) does not match the formula for the primer paint used on the World Trade Center towers. (table 1)[16] Although both the red/gray chips and the primer paint contain iron oxide pigment particles, the primer is an alkyd-based resin with zinc yellow (zinc chromate) and diatomaceous silica along with some other proprietary (Tnemec) pigments. No diatoms were found during the analysis of the red/gray chips. Some small EDS peaks of zinc and chromium were detected in some samples but the amount detected was inconsistent with the 20% level of zinc chromate in the primer formula.

Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) contain some information about product materials. According to the MSDS currently listed on the Tnemec website,[17] 55 out of the 177 Tnemec coating products contain one or two of the three major components in the red layer: iron oxide and/or kaolin (aluminum silicate) pigments. However, none of the 177 different coatings is a match for the red layer coating found in this study. [emphasis Capstone's]

So this report simultaneously supports the paint scheme explanation for the presence of iron oxide and aluminum silicate ...and debunks it via the concession that no such formula for primer paint exists.

Also from the MVA report:

Chips of interest were ashed in a muffle furnace using a NEY Temperature Programmable furnace operated at 400 [degrees C] for 1 hour.[emphasis Capstone's]

What's interesting about the temperature highlighted above is that it was apparently low enough to avoid the ignition reaction reported in Harrit's paper.

From the abstract to Harrit's paper:

When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 °C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.[emphasis Capstone's]

If the point was to debunk Harrit's conclusions, why didn't the MVA scientists simply repeat his methodology?

But all of the egghead stuff aside, until someone explains how a 47-story skyscraper (that wasn't hit by an airplane or even a significant amount of debris from the other fallen buildings) can collapse symmetrically into its own footprint in less than 7 seconds ...without the use of explosives, I'll continue to have no choice but to believe that explosives were used.

On a personal level, it's not like I want to believe this kind of shit about elements of my own country's government. If anything, my efforts have been aimed at finding reasons not to believe it. Problem is: those reasons are scarce to begin with ...and the few I've found have never stood even the most superficial tests of scrutiny.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

some loyal Bush dupes have proved in spades they ditched junior high school science classes and they know it.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

I'm no expert here, but a couple of things from the MVA's "progress report" did pique my interest:

At the time of this progress report, the identity of the product from which the red/gray chips were generated has not been determined. The composition of the red/gray chips found in this study (epoxy resin with iron oxide and kaolin pigments) does not match the formula for the primer paint used on the World Trade Center towers. (table 1)[16] Although both the red/gray chips and the primer paint contain iron oxide pigment particles, the primer is an alkyd-based resin with zinc yellow (zinc chromate) and diatomaceous silica along with some other proprietary (Tnemec) pigments. No diatoms were found during the analysis of the red/gray chips. Some small EDS peaks of zinc and chromium were detected in some samples but the amount detected was inconsistent with the 20% level of zinc chromate in the primer formula.

Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) contain some information about product materials. According to the MSDS currently listed on the Tnemec website,[17] 55 out of the 177 Tnemec coating products contain one or two of the three major components in the red layer: iron oxide and/or kaolin (aluminum silicate) pigments. However, none of the 177 different coatings is a match for the red layer coating found in this study. [emphasis Capstone's]

So this report simultaneously supports the paint scheme explanation for the presence of iron oxide and aluminum silicate ...and debunks it via the concession that no such formula for primer paint exists.

Also from the MVA report:

Chips of interest were ashed in a muffle furnace using a NEY Temperature Programmable furnace operated at 400 [degrees C] for 1 hour.[emphasis Capstone's]

What's interesting about the temperature highlighted above is that it was apparently low enough to avoid the ignition reaction reported in Harrit's paper.

From the abstract to Harrit's paper:

When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 °C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.[emphasis Capstone's]

If the point was to debunk Harrit's conclusions, why didn't the MVA scientists simply repeat his methodology?

But all of the egghead stuff aside, until someone explains how a 47-story skyscraper (that wasn't hit by an airplane or even a significant amount of debris from the other fallen buildings) can collapse symmetrically into its own footprint in less than 7 seconds ...without the use of explosives, I'll continue to have no choice but to believe that explosives were used.

On a personal level, it's not like I want to believe this kind of shit about elements of my own country's government. If anything, my efforts have been aimed at finding reasons not to believe it. Problem is: those reasons are scarce to begin with ...and the few I've found have never stood even the most superficial tests of scrutiny.

So this report simultaneously supports the paint scheme explanation for the presence of iron oxide and aluminum silicate ...and debunks it via the concession that no such formula for primer paint exists.

Dr Millette not saying "no such formula for primer paint exists". He is saying that he can't identify which of the many types of primer used is the one on the chips. Each supplier used their own formula for their steel. Also, there are many other items brought into the towers after construction that contained primed steel, i.e. fire extinguishers, file cabinets, refrigerators, etc.

If the point was to debunk Harrit's conclusions, why didn't the MVA scientists simply repeat his methodology?

Once the tests showed there was no elemental aluminum in either the red or gray layers of the chips, there was no reason to find the ignition level. Why test for thermite once you know it can't be there because a prime component is missing?

But all of the egghead stuff aside, until someone explains how a 47-story skyscraper (that wasn't hit by an airplane or even a significant amount of debris from the other fallen buildings) can collapse symmetrically into its own footprint in less than 7 seconds ...without the use of explosives, I'll continue to have no choice but to believe that explosives were used.

A: WTC 7 was hit by a large amount of debris, so much so that one corner was torn out from the ground to the 18th floor.
B: The 7 second claim is only correct when you look at it AFTER the 2 mechanical penthouses collapse into the building following the failure of column 79. When those are correctly added in, the collapse time is over 20 seconds.
C: WTC 7 did not fall into it's own footprint. It laid to the north halfway through the collapse, which it why there was so much damage to the roof of Fitterman Hall.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

some loyal Bush dupes have proved in spades they ditched junior high school science classes and they know it.

The loyal Gage-dupe shows he either refuses to read the report, or doesn't know enough science to understand it.

 

[daws101]

Listening to the pseudo-scientist gubmint agent Steve Jones was the skeptics first, foremost and biggest mistake.

yes dear, now take you meds !

 

[LA RAM FAN]

as usual,the loyal Bush dupes and agent moron in the hat like they do every day here in every one of their posts,get their asses handed to them on platter and can only fling shit in defeat like the monkey trolls they are.
AE911Truth.org

you dont fool me,the bush dupes that have posted on here are to afraid of the truth to look at it so they listen to agent trolls like moron in the hat and dawgshit.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

as usual,the loyal Bush dupes and agent moron in the hat like they do every day here in every one of their posts,get their asses handed to them on platter and can only fling shit in defeat like the monkey trolls they are.
AE911Truth.org

Thank you for demonstrating that you really aren't interested in any new investigations, Gage-dupe.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

as usual,the loyal Bush dupes and agent moron in the hat like they do every day here in every one of their posts,get their asses handed to them on platter and can only fling shit in defeat like the monkey trolls they are.
AE911Truth.org

you dont fool me,the bush dupes that have posted on here are to afraid of the truth to look at it so they listen to agent trolls like moron in the hat and dawgshit.

what I just now noticed about that link from reading the first page is that is goes on to say what I have been saying all along since sept 11th 2001 that you dont have to be an architec or engineer expert to know the official explanation of the collapse of the towers is b.s all you got to to si have a grasp of 7th grade physics to know its b.s.IT says that on that link.Not me.
great to see someone say what I have said over a thousand times over the years on this site that to accept the official version of the collapse of the towers is ignoring the laws of physics.lol .that you only need a 7th grade education on the laws of physics to know explosives brought the towers down.Funny that Im not the only one saying that now,that someone else is,an architect no less.

You Bush dupes can deny it all you want,but you constantly proves in everyone of your posts that its true,that you all dtiched junior high school science classes. you can only fling shit in defeat like the monkey trolls you are. and get brainwashed by agent trolls Moron In the hat and dawgshit.yep.lol.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

as usual,the loyal Bush dupes and agent moron in the hat like they do every day here in every one of their posts,get their asses handed to them on platter and can only fling shit in defeat like the monkey trolls they are.
AE911Truth.org

you dont fool me,the bush dupes that have posted on here are to afraid of the truth to look at it so they listen to agent trolls like moron in the hat and dawgshit.

what I just now noticed about that link from reading the first page is that is goes on to say what I have been saying all along since sept 11th 2001 that you dont have to be an architec or engineer expert to know the official explanation of the collapse of the towers is b.s all you got to to si have a grasp of 7th grade physics to know its b.s.IT says that on that link.Not me.
great to see someone say what I have said over a thousand times over the years on this site that to accept the official version of the collapse of the towers is ignoring the laws of physics.lol .that you only need a 7th grade education on the laws of physics to know explosives brought the towers down.Funny that Im not the only one saying that now,that someone else is,an architect no less.

You Bush dupes can deny it all you want,but you constantly proves in everyone of your posts that its true,that you all dtiched junior high school science classes. you can only fling shit in defeat like the monkey trolls you are. and get brainwashed by agent trolls Moron In the hat and dawgshit.yep.lol.

OK, so what explosives are you going to say brought down the towers now that thermXte is out of the picture??

 

[eots]

as usual,the loyal Bush dupes and agent moron in the hat like they do every day here in every one of their posts,get their asses handed to them on platter and can only fling shit in defeat like the monkey trolls they are.
AE911Truth.org

you dont fool me,the bush dupes that have posted on here are to afraid of the truth to look at it so they listen to agent trolls like moron in the hat and dawgshit.

what I just now noticed about that link from reading the first page is that is goes on to say what I have been saying all along since sept 11th 2001 that you dont have to be an architec or engineer expert to know the official explanation of the collapse of the towers is b.s all you got to to si have a grasp of 7th grade physics to know its b.s.IT says that on that link.Not me.
great to see someone say what I have said over a thousand times over the years on this site that to accept the official version of the collapse of the towers is ignoring the laws of physics.lol .that you only need a 7th grade education on the laws of physics to know explosives brought the towers down.Funny that Im not the only one saying that now,that someone else is,an architect no less.

You Bush dupes can deny it all you want,but you constantly proves in everyone of your posts that its true,that you all dtiched junior high school science classes. you can only fling shit in defeat like the monkey trolls you are. and get brainwashed by agent trolls Moron In the hat and dawgshit.yep.lol.

OK, so what explosives are you going to say brought down the towers now that thermXte is out of the picture??

it is hardly out of the picture because some numb nuts who calls himself an "amateur debunker" before even starting this project writes an article that has not even been peer reviewed

 

[Toro]

The Truth Movement has been asking for a new investigation, and they got one. Unfortunately for them, it didn't go the way they hoped. Based on the new tests, the chips that Harrit, et; al called "thermite" in their Bentham paper were actually primer paint.

Red/gray chips that had the same morphology and appearance as those reported by
Harrit et al.1, and fitting the criteria of being attracted by a magnet and having the SEMEDS
x-ray elemental spectra described in their paper (Gray: Fe, Red: C,O, Al, Si, Fe)
were found in the WTC dust from all four locations examined. The red layers were in
the range of 15 to 30 micrometers thick. The gray layers were in the range of 10 to
50 micrometers thick (Appendix B).
The FTIR spectra of the red layer were consistent with reference spectra of an epoxy
resin and kaolin clay (Figure 9) (Appendix C).

TEM-SAED-EDS analysis of the residue after low temperature ashing showed equantshaped
particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigment and plates of kaolin clay.
Small numbers of titanium oxide particles consistent with titanium dioxide pigment were
also found (Figure 16) (Appendix E).

The red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent
with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin that contains primarily iron oxide and
kaolin clay pigments.
There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles of any size in the
red/gray chips, therefore the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nanothermite.

Here is the link to the complete article...

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/9119ProgressReport022912_rev1_030112web.pdf

And here is a link to the company that did the research...

Home - MVA Scientific Consultants, Inc.


I wonder if the Truthers will be asking for any more investigations anytime soon?

Clearly, this firm is in on it.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

what I just now noticed about that link from reading the first page is that is goes on to say what I have been saying all along since sept 11th 2001 that you dont have to be an architec or engineer expert to know the official explanation of the collapse of the towers is b.s all you got to to si have a grasp of 7th grade physics to know its b.s.IT says that on that link.Not me.
great to see someone say what I have said over a thousand times over the years on this site that to accept the official version of the collapse of the towers is ignoring the laws of physics.lol .that you only need a 7th grade education on the laws of physics to know explosives brought the towers down.Funny that Im not the only one saying that now,that someone else is,an architect no less.

You Bush dupes can deny it all you want,but you constantly proves in everyone of your posts that its true,that you all dtiched junior high school science classes. you can only fling shit in defeat like the monkey trolls you are. and get brainwashed by agent trolls Moron In the hat and dawgshit.yep.lol.

OK, so what explosives are you going to say brought down the towers now that thermXte is out of the picture??

it is hardly out of the picture because some numb nuts who calls himself an "amateur debunker" before even starting this project writes an article that has not even been peer reviewed

Herrit and company haven't bothered to have their findings peer reviewed since 2009. Why not?

Dr. Jim Millette has submitted his full report for peer review already. And I would hardly consider him an "amateur debunker", considering his lab has been involved with testing the dust since 2001.

 

[Capstone]

Dr Millette not saying "no such formula for primer paint exists". He is saying that he can't identify which of the many types of primer used is the one on the chips. Each supplier used their own formula for their steel. Also, there are many other items brought into the towers after construction that contained primed steel, i.e. fire extinguishers, file cabinets, refrigerators, etc.

Operating under the Paint Scheme Hypothesis, in order for these compositionally consistent red/gray chips to be present in the quantities suggested by the 8 independently collected samples (4 by Harrit's group and 4 by MVA), the source application would have to have been far too abundant to be explainable in terms of prospective secondary sources of primered steel. While the abundance of diverse primer formulas could be expained by such secondary sources, the consistency of the red/gray formula could not. So, in order for the MVA's theory to hold water, the source of the r/g chips would have to have been the largest candidate for primered steel: namely the structural columns.

Now, whether the scientists involved realize it or not, in conceding that "none of the 177 different coatings [listed by Tnemec] is a match for the red layer coating found in this study", the MVA study is admitting that these abundant r/g chips cannot be explained away as bits and pieces of the primered columns; primarly because, even if each supplier used a different formula ...each and every formula they used would have been at least 1 of the 177.

Once the tests showed there was no elemental aluminum in either the red or gray layers of the chips, there was no reason to find the ignition level. Why test for thermite once you know it can't be there because a prime component is missing?

That's just it: there's nothing conclusive to prove the absence of elemental aluminum particles; there's only proof of a failed attempt to do so.

According to MVA's own study:

In forensic studies, paints and coatings must often be broken down so that the components of the entire coating product can be studied individually. Epoxy resins are formed from the reaction of two different chemicals which produces a polymer that is heavily cross-linked. Epoxy resins can be especially difficult to dissolve. Organic solvents, including those sold commercially for epoxy paint/coating stripping, were found to soften the red layer portion of the red/gray chips but did not dissolve the epoxy resin sufficiently so particles within the resin coating could be dispersed for direct examination. In this study no organic solvent was found to release particles from within the epoxy resin and it was necessary to use low temperature ashing to eliminate the epoxy resin matrix and extract the component parts of the coating. The other procedures generally used to examine component particles within a coating without extraction (cross-sections and thin sections) were also applied in this study. [emphasis Capstone's]

Ashing and visual techniques aside, it's telling that MVA admits the presence of aluminum silicate.

So, the question not only remains, it's actually screaming to be asked in the absence of an effective solvent: why not just check and see whether the shit's more energetic than it should be at 430 C?

 

[Rat in the Hat]

Dr Millette not saying "no such formula for primer paint exists". He is saying that he can't identify which of the many types of primer used is the one on the chips. Each supplier used their own formula for their steel. Also, there are many other items brought into the towers after construction that contained primed steel, i.e. fire extinguishers, file cabinets, refrigerators, etc.

Operating under the Paint Scheme Hypothesis, in order for these compositionally consistent red/gray chips to be present in the quantities suggested by the 8 independently collected samples (4 by Harrit's group and 4 by MVA), the source application would have to have been far too abundant to be explainable in terms of the prospective secondary sources of primered steel. While the abundance of diverse primer formulas could be expained by those secondary sources, the consistency of the red/gray formula could not. So, in order for the MVA's theory to hold water, the source of the r/g chips would have to have been the largest candidate for primered steel: namely the structural columns.

Now, whether the scientists involved realize it or not, in conceding that "none of the 177 different coatings [listed on Tnemec's MSDS] is a match for the red layer coating found in this study", the MVA study is admitting that these abundant r/g chips cannot be explained away as bits and pieces of the primered columns; primarly because, even if each supplier used a different formula ...it would have certainly been at least 1 of the 177.

Once the tests showed there was no elemental aluminum in either the red or gray layers of the chips, there was no reason to find the ignition level. Why test for thermite once you know it can't be there because a prime component is missing?

That's just it: there's nothing conclusive to prove the absence of elemental aluminum particles; there's only proof of a failed attempt to do so.

According to MVA's own study:

In forensic studies, paints and coatings must often be broken down so that the components of the entire coating product can be studied individually. Epoxy resins are formed from the reaction of two different chemicals which produces a polymer that is heavily cross-linked. Epoxy resins can be especially difficult to dissolve. Organic solvents, including those sold commercially for epoxy paint/coating stripping, were found to soften the red layer portion of the red/gray chips but did not dissolve the epoxy resin sufficiently so particles within the resin coating could be dispersed for direct examination. In this study no organic solvent was found to release particles from within the epoxy resin and it was necessary to use low temperature ashing to eliminate the epoxy resin matrix and extract the component parts of the coating. The other procedures generally used to examine component particles within a coating without extraction (cross-sections and thin sections) were also applied in this study.

Ashing and visual techniques aside, it's telling that MVA admits the presence of alluminum silicate.

So, the question not only remains; it's actually screaming to be asked: in the absence of an effective solvent, why not just check and see whether the shit's more energetic than it should be at 430 C ...or not?

Why bother to see how energetic the paint is at 430C when thermite's ignition temperature is 1650C (3000F)?

Thermite is typically very difficult to ignite, requiring a temperature of over 3,000 degrees F just to get the reaction started.

http://www.unitednuclear.com/thermiteinfo.pdf

 

[Capstone]

Why bother to see how energetic the paint is at 430C when thermite's ignition temperature is 1650C (3000F)?

Apparently you missed my earlier posting of the excerpt from the abstract to Harrit's paper:

When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 °C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.[emphasis Capstone's]

This isn't "conventional thermite" we're talking about...

 

[Rat in the Hat]

Why bother to see how energetic the paint is at 430C when thermite's ignition temperature is 1650C (3000F)?

Apparently you missed my earlier posting of the excerpt from the abstract to Harrit's paper:

When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 °C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.[emphasis Capstone's]

This isn't "conventional thermite" we're talking about...

So what kind of thermite ignites at 1/4 the temperature as the conventional stuff, and contains no elemental aluminum?

 

[hortysir]

Why bother to see how energetic the paint is at 430C when thermite's ignition temperature is 1650C (3000F)?

Apparently you missed my earlier posting of the excerpt from the abstract to Harrit's paper:

When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 °C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.[emphasis Capstone's]

This isn't "conventional thermite" we're talking about...

So what kind of thermite ignites at 1/4 the temperature as the conventional stuff, and contains no elemental aluminum?

The kind that supports the Toofer's whacked-out theories, of course.....

 

[Capstone]

The kind that supports the Toofer's whacked-out theories, of course.....

Now that's the sort of erudite scholarship I've come to expect from most proponents of the official 'conspiracy theory'.

 

[hortysir]

The kind that supports the Toofer's whacked-out theories, of course.....

Now that's the sort of erudite scholarship I've come to expect from most proponents of the official 'conspiracy theory'.

And which theory do you swallow, hook, line and sinker, foil-hat?

 

[Capstone]

And which theory do you swallow, hook, line and sinker, foil-hat?

Certainly not the one refuted by every ounce of physical evidence that somehow managed to survive the purge employed in the immediate aftermath of 9/11/01.